Feeling Discouraged-Need Advice

Pete Pridanonda

Elite Member
Jun 13, 2009
402
35
Hi Everyone,
Before, I used to be very excited about sharing my magic videos with the magic community. However, I feel that lately I am losing the enthusiasm to share my videos. Mainly because I only receive a few to no comments at all whenever I shared my videos. Unlike other 'kids' on youtube, I do NOT care about views or subscribers, all I want is a lot of people to provide me with feedback on my videos so that I can improve on my performance. I really don't understand why when some magicians post videos of them performing for just a camera on youtube, they get a ton of comments. But when I put my sweat and tear into going out there and do live performances, I still feel that I'm not really progressing into bigger things in my career and not really getting a lot of feedback from my fellow magicians and audience.

https://www.youtube.com/user/tallyhoviper645/videos
 

Brett Hurley

Elite Member
Sep 27, 2014
2,410
2,005
Texa$, with a dollar sign
I feel the same way. I literally chased down CaseyRudd for advice when I did an entry for the most recent video contest. I felt a bit like a putz, but I didn't know what else to do.

Anyway, I sent you a PM. I was a bit hesitant because I'm so new to magic. Again, I started magic in July. If my advice sucks, please, let me know why it sucks. I want to help out others as much as I can and I don't want to dispense bad advice if what I 'think' is an improvement really isn't an improvement at all.

Is there any way I can get critique on my two most recent videos?
 

Pete Pridanonda

Elite Member
Jun 13, 2009
402
35
I feel the same way. I literally chased down CaseyRudd for advice when I did an entry for the most recent video contest. I felt a bit like a putz, but I didn't know what else to do.

Anyway, I sent you a PM. I was a bit hesitant because I'm so new to magic. Again, I started magic in July. If my advice sucks, please, let me know why it sucks. I want to help out others as much as I can and I don't want to dispense bad advice if what I 'think' is an improvement really isn't an improvement at all.

Is there any way I can get critique on my two most recent videos?
Thank you very much for your pm my friend! By the way, in my opinion, all advice are great advice, and I greatly treasure every bit of it :) I will read your pm and will respond to it!
Sure, I would love to give advice on your two new videos! Do you have a link to it?
 

Brett Hurley

Elite Member
Sep 27, 2014
2,410
2,005
Texa$, with a dollar sign
I have a suggestion. If you do not care about views and subscribers then post your videos on the media section, there the magic community can give more feedback than on youtube as more of the users here are into magic.

there are only media sections dedicated to cards and coins. Where do you suggest you put a video for something like Cups and Balls?
 
Aug 17, 2010
411
4
I had PMed you with as best advice as I could muster (I had even transcribed the video to give you a more accurate critique).

Your last post didn't really make clear what it was you were after - maybe spell it out more clearly, and tell us if you'd like an honest critique of your performance.

To be honest, with a title like "Reputation Maker Card Magic LIVE Show", and the body going on about "in my opinion, it is the best card effect ever created," it really doesn't come across as looking for a critique or for constructive criticism. Tone, inflection and a million other things are lost when going from spoken to written communication, and perhaps your intent was muddied by the limitations of the written word.

If I might suggest, perhaps trying a title that spells out with greater clarity that you want an honest appraisal of your work, and maybe reinforce that in the body of your post.
 

Luis Vega

Elite Member
Mar 19, 2008
1,820
259
36
Leon, Guanajuato Mexico
luisvega.com.mx
Hi Everyone,
Before, I used to be very excited about sharing my magic videos with the magic community. However, I feel that lately I am losing the enthusiasm to share my videos. Mainly because I only receive a few to no comments at all whenever I shared my videos. Unlike other 'kids' on youtube, I do NOT care about views or subscribers, all I want is a lot of people to provide me with feedback on my videos so that I can improve on my performance. I really don't understand why when some magicians post videos of them performing for just a camera on youtube, they get a ton of comments. But when I put my sweat and tear into going out there and do live performances, I still feel that I'm not really progressing into bigger things in my career and not really getting a lot of feedback from my fellow magicians and audience.

https://www.youtube.com/user/tallyhoviper645/videos

Why do you want approval from people that you don´t even know?... I have seen you videos and to be honest I don´t like your style... but, I never comment because what´s the point? you should continue doing you stuff regardless I like it or don´t, and mostly because I don´t like it by personal preference....

Never put your faith in this kind of thing... most people on the internet are NOT real... Most magicians that do videos or dwell on forums don´t even have experience to criticize a live performance... because they have little to none...

Just keep working... forget about getting comments or encouragement from anonymous people and find encouragemente from your spectators and STOP wanting approval from the internet... I assure you that a good comment from an spectator is far more valuable than a thousand of comments from couch magicians...and viceversa...
 

Pete Pridanonda

Elite Member
Jun 13, 2009
402
35
I had PMed you with as best advice as I could muster (I had even transcribed the video to give you a more accurate critique).

Your last post didn't really make clear what it was you were after - maybe spell it out more clearly, and tell us if you'd like an honest critique of your performance.

To be honest, with a title like "Reputation Maker Card Magic LIVE Show", and the body going on about "in my opinion, it is the best card effect ever created," it really doesn't come across as looking for a critique or for constructive criticism. Tone, inflection and a million other things are lost when going from spoken to written communication, and perhaps your intent was muddied by the limitations of the written word.

If I might suggest, perhaps trying a title that spells out with greater clarity that you want an honest appraisal of your work, and maybe reinforce that in the body of your post.
I really appreciate your advice and especially for taking the time to write back to me. I would like to say a huge thank you to you from the bottom of my heart.
As for the titles, I have to make them interesting, otherwise people won't be interested in watching the video, let alone clicking on the post. If I just put the title as "Card Magic", people might assume that it's just a random kid doing the 21 card trick etc.
Do you think I should put the title as "Fire card Magic-NEED FEEDBACK" ? Would that be better?
 

Pete Pridanonda

Elite Member
Jun 13, 2009
402
35
Why do you want approval from people that you don´t even know?... I have seen you videos and to be honest I don´t like your style... but, I never comment because what´s the point? you should continue doing you stuff regardless I like it or don´t, and mostly because I don´t like it by personal preference....

Never put your faith in this kind of thing... most people on the internet are NOT real... Most magicians that do videos or dwell on forums don´t even have experience to criticize a live performance... because they have little to none...

Just keep working... forget about getting comments or encouragement from anonymous people and find encouragemente from your spectators and STOP wanting approval from the internet... I assure you that a good comment from an spectator is far more valuable than a thousand of comments from couch magicians...and viceversa...

Luis, first off, I would like to tell you that I prefer bad comments if they help me realize what I'm doing wrong, why people don't like my show, or what I need to improve. For me, bad comments are very encouraging to me because they let me analyze my show from an audience's perspective.
I am really glad that you do not like my style; I am getting tired of reading comments such as 'You're perfect' or 'You're the next David Copperfield!'. However, if one day you can tell me what I need to improve or simply what you don't like about my performance that would really means a lot to me.
 

Luis Vega

Elite Member
Mar 19, 2008
1,820
259
36
Leon, Guanajuato Mexico
luisvega.com.mx
Luis, first off, I would like to tell you that I prefer bad comments if they help me realize what I'm doing wrong, why people don't like my show, or what I need to improve. For me, bad comments are very encouraging to me because they let me analyze my show from an audience's perspective.
I am really glad that you do not like my style; I am getting tired of reading comments such as 'You're perfect' or 'You're the next David Copperfield!'. However, if one day you can tell me what I need to improve or simply what you don't like about my performance that would really means a lot to me.

I don´t like it due to personal preference... and as said..Usually people that comments on youtube videos have little to no experience... the true critics of your work would always be your spectators... are you getting the reactions you want? are people hiring you for gigs and so? You must be the FIRST critic always...

If you are looking for real advice...I recommend gathering with other magicians... in person... that would be a good start!!
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,827
2,918
I have to agree with Luis. If you want advice on how to make your show better you first need to look to yourself, and then to your audience. Yourself, because you have to have a concrete idea of the result you want. Your audience, because that's the only way to know if you are getting that result.

I do not personally watch your videos because they are not interesting to me and I generally seem to be perceived as mean or rude if I give honest feedback to people. Don't take that the wrong way - your technical skills are good and your audiences are reacting to the magic so I assume you are doing well. It's just that your presentations tend to be fairly similar to what everyone else is doing and I've already seen all of that so I don't particularly want to watch it again.
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,186
16
40
London
Honest and constructive feedback is incredibly difficult to come by in any creative pursuit. You're asking people (generally strangers) to do you a favour for which you won't necessarily be grateful. If someone criticizes your work, they don't know how you're going to react, so it's much easier for them to either say nothing or stick to bland generalities. So, you need to show willing, show that you're serious about getting criticism.

Here's an idea. Rather than putting a video up and just asking for feedback, choose a specific element of your show that you have doubts about, maybe one moment of misdirection, one joke, one transition between tricks or one move. Then put the couple of minutes either side of that moment into a video and send it directly to people from whom you want criticism. When you contact them, show that you've understood why they will be able to help you. For example:

"Dear [INSERT FAMOUS MAGICIAN NAME], in your [INSERT NAME OF ROUTINE] routine you have a moment where you cover [INSERT NAME OF MOVE] by saying [INSERT LINE] and doing [INSERT MISDIRECTIVE ACTION]. I have a similar moment in one of my routines, but I'm not sure whether I'm getting it quite right. So, I was hoping you might be able to give me a bit of advice about where I'm going wrong, or maybe point me in the direction of other resources if you don't have the time to help me directly. Anyway, I've included a link to a 2 minute YouTube video of this moment from one of my live shows. Any criticism you could give would be much appreciated!"

This still won't guarantee a useful response, but it'll help as, at least, it shows that you've put some effort in. You haven't just gone "HELP ME!", you've done some of the work, identified a potential problem and done enough research to identify someone who has the specific knowledge you're after.
 
Sep 1, 2013
305
15
South Africa
I have to agree with the initial post in this thread and comment on trying to communicate with other magicians, I will use my own scenario as I am sure that I am not the only magician in this position.

I live in South Africa, finding street magicians in my local area is like trying to find gold in my back yard, meaning, if and when you find a magician, he/she will probably be a stage illusionist and this is using knowledge of my local demographic, so essentially you wouldn't really ask for advice on your classic pass from said magicians.

So what's the preferred way? Social Media. I have created an abundance of tricks that bare slight similarities from previously published works which we all know can cause problems. In the Passed 5 years of being a magician I have only ever gained help from one magician, of the many I've contacted, and that was Aaron Fisher and he genuinely helped me. Now other magicians from Theory 11 that I have attempted to contact, have acted like A-list celebrities and do not respond to any e-mails, tweets or facebook messages that one would send to them, I understand that they are busy people and have working jobs and such but can you really tell me that they have NO time to help people practicing THEIR creations?

As for the forums, I personally have created threads linking my YouTube videos and have asked for feedback, and have gotten some fair enough, but there aren't enough people replying. What do I mean? Look at my previous thread for example, It's called the ACAAN idea (No I am not shamefully plugging my own post :D) I have 5 positive replies which I am content with, BUT 119 people viewed my post, essentially 110 or so people read it (excluding myself replying to them), gathered a thought or two and decided not to share any of them.

THIS IS NOT HOW THE FORUMS SHOULD WORK!

As for the Theory 11 creators, I don't see it fair to claim to be available for contact to help others, in their own downloads and DVD's, yet completely ignore any cries for help, and this is regarding emails sent to their personal addresses THAT THEY HAVE PROVIDED. Is this fair?
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,186
16
40
London
Is this fair?

Yes it is fair. And, in my opinion, asking that question reveals the exact reason why you're not getting the help you want. You seem to feel as if you somehow have a right to other people's time and expertise. You don't. If anyone helps you then that's above and beyond the call of duty and extremely kind of them. They are doing you a favour. If you humble yourself and sincerely ask yourself, "What can I do that makes me worthy of these experts' time?" then you'll get a lot further.
 
Sep 1, 2013
305
15
South Africa
Yes it is fair. And, in my opinion, asking that question reveals the exact reason why you're not getting the help you want. You seem to feel as if you somehow have a right to other people's time and expertise. You don't. If anyone helps you then that's above and beyond the call of duty and extremely kind of them. They are doing you a favour. If you humble yourself and sincerely ask yourself, "What can I do that makes me worthy of these experts' time?" then you'll get a lot further.

Fair enough. Equally the creators should stop advertising their availability to help others if it's "above and beyond the call of duty" as you say. I think you interpret me as some kind of demanding maniac that just orders for other people's attention, I only ask for help once and if I don't get it, then better luck next time.
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,186
16
40
London
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that you shouldn't ask for help. I'm just suggesting how you could make those requests for help more effective. Imagine it from the other point of view. If someone was asking you for help, what attributes would they need to display in order to encourage you to help them?
 

Brett Hurley

Elite Member
Sep 27, 2014
2,410
2,005
Texa$, with a dollar sign
I know for some of us (myself included), magician clubs and groups are not options for various reasons; forums are it. I can completely understand where the frustration comes from where you feel blocked off in the only place you could get help from.

Honestly, there should be a sticky at the top of the General Discussion page of how to properly ask help from others. There's over 100K members on the site. I'd wager a guess that maybe a few hundred of them know how to ask the right questions.

I figure a sticky post would mitigate a lot of frustration for magicians and cardists (myself included) in taking the 'shotgun approach' when seeking advice and barely getting a glance for their work.
 

Pete Pridanonda

Elite Member
Jun 13, 2009
402
35
Thank you for your reply everyone! Yes, I could learn a great deal about my show by watching the audience's reactions, but I think it would be better if I also have advice from magicians in order to avoid making mistakes in front of an audience that could ruin our reputation. I also think it would be a great idea if we have separate categories for each of the artists on theory 11. That way we can ask specific questions relating to the artists and their works. In addition, the artists can go through the threads answering all the questions instead of searching through their email and potentially missing important emails.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,827
2,918
Thank you for your reply everyone! Yes, I could learn a great deal about my show by watching the audience's reactions, but I think it would be better if I also have advice from magicians in order to avoid making mistakes in front of an audience that could ruin our reputation.

It would be quite easy to ruin one's reputation by following the advice of others as well. You must know what advice to follow and what advice to ignore. For years I've had well meaning friends trying to help me add to my repertoire this trick or that trick and while I appreciate their efforts and know they are well meaning - it doesn't actually fit what I'm doing because they don't actually understand what I'm aiming for. Which is fair enough, I only really figured it out over the past year or so.

As said previously (TeeDee, I think) - the way you ask is just as important as what you ask. While I've never gone to the extent previously mentioned, I have chatted with several folks regarding various things. That's part of what I love about the magic world - the ability to reach out to people you respect and actually get a response. I generally make it a habit of trying to contact the creator whenever I purchase something just to say thanks and that often opens the door to further conversations.

Here's two hypothetical examples of ways to ask for feedback.
1) "Hey guys. Here's a performance of my version of Triumph. How can I make this better?"

And

2) "Hey guys. Here's a performance of my version of Triumph. I'm not sure my false shuffle is convincing in this context. Should I change it up maybe?"

The first is vague. What does 'better' mean? To one person, 'better' could be more flourishy. Another person might want more difficult sleight of hand. Yet another might think a more basic method is better And yet another might think you shouldn't do this trick at all, what you should do is X. (There's always one ....)

The second one is less objective and has a far better chance of receiving a useful response. There will still be junk, but because of the direct nature less of it will be junk and the junk will be easier to spot.
 
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