If you don't like discussions don't have a forum.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Spaz, Nov 4, 2019.

  1. I posted my opinion in this topic:
    https://www.theory11.com/forums/threads/one-move-i-refuse-to-do-and-never-will.57375/

    And for no reason at all I got a ration of garbage for it. Then reality one made a snarky reply to me as if i did something wrong and closed the thread:

    2 things:
    1. This is a forum, it's for posting. I never asked for anyone's opinion! I simply make a post about a move I don't like, and explained why. I didn't say don't do the move or discouraged anyone from doing anything. People came into the topic cramming their opinion about how I was wrong and posted up all sorts of what they did (all of which has nothing to do with the topic) then when i replied I got reality one posting that line of tripe and in the same sentence pretty much saying i have to take others opinions and since I didn't the topic was not constructive.

    People want to reply to it fine go ahead, but don't go deconstructing replies by posting snarky comments about other replies unrelated to the topic about it then close the topic so no rebuttable can be made then act like I'm the bad guy.

    The topic was perfectly fine until people came in and basically verbally assaulted me for it. and basically telling me I cannot have that stand and when i didn't tell me I was the bad guy.

    If you don't want discussions don't have a forum if you want to try and brute force your opinion onto someone and if they don't take it you portray them as the bad guy you're going to be called don't

    I simply posted my opinion, what was done to me was an attempt at brute force acceptance which the closure of the thread acting like it wasn't a constructive thing to say is dumb.
     
  2. If I had known the topic was going to get like that, I never would have posted it to begin with. I honestly didn't think anything of it. I can only try to be more careful in the future. I've since also messaged Reality one so there isn't really anything to reply to this topic.

    I'm just saying I'll try to be more careful when posting as I'm not here to try and cause friction.

    My apologies to people that got offended!
     
  3. What are you trying to address with this? It can't be an apology...

    You are just continuing where it was left off but with no change. Meaning it appears as if you are just doubling down and haven't understood why others came in to voice their opinions that run counter to yours.

    It was lined out for you in the last post where a collection of your quotes shows snippets that lead to pushback as well as denigrating those that would disagree with you. Like where you say those that disagree with you are brainwashed etc. You seem to be playing the victim here still saying that people "verbally assaulted" you in response. Anyone call you brainwashed for your opinion?

    How about say that your responses were garbage?

    Like here where are calling others responses in that thread "garbage". Can you see how your contribution's are working against open discourse...I think they like having a forum so they want to promote discourse. Do you see how your actions are continuing to work against the "apology" you give later for those that were "offended".

    Maybe take a step back and relook at things with fresh eyes tomorrow.
     
  4. Here’s the thing, you posted your opinion about a move and your opinion about it. What happens after that (outside of how well you explain your intention in the post), is beyond your control.

    Maybe instead of thrashing a move, maybe ask what (card) moves could be better to utilize, since there’s a lot of card resources out there and a good number of people here can help in that direction.

    If you are having trouble with the move or presentation, people here can help with that too.

    On one hand, yes, I can see where you were trying to get a discussion started. On the other hand, the way it was presented could have been open to a more constructive discussion.

    That’s what the moderators do. Once a thread has caught on fire, but the constructiveness of it reaches terminal velocity, it’s done-ski.

    We don’t want to paint anyone as a bad guy here in any capacity. I’ve been here for years, there’s no cliques or anything here; just everyone helping each other.

    Again, I’m not sure what sort of discussion could be expected from a post that, summarized, goes “this move is bad” and that’s it. There didn’t seem to be a clear defined objective and it just led to chaos.

    Not trying to start anything. I will say that, in the future, if you do want to have a discussion about a move or anything of the sort, you have to ask, “what am I trying to get out of this?”
    The way the post presented itself only lent itself to two possible outcomes:
    - validation for you
    - invalidation for you

    In regards to your thread that got locked. You could have posted your opinion and then maybe asked everyone what similar move do they think could or would work better and why. We hVe a lot of knowledgeable minds here and I can guarantee that if your post as worded in a way that I mentioned above, it’d still be open and you’d have a litany of opinions and answers.
     
    zombieripper, Mr_ARPY, JoshL8 and 3 others like this.
  5. We typically close threads when they have "run their course." I closed the thread because everything that could be said, had been said. @Spaz had explained why he didn't like the top change and others explained why they thought the move had value. We were into the phase of everybody rehashing what they said and the phase of people blaming other people for the devolution of the discourse. Threads that hit that point rarely become productive again.

    We like constructive discussions where people not only express their opinions, but consider the opinions of others. We like when people provide different perspectives. We like it when people give advice about how to improve and even posts like @Brett Hurley above which give advice about how to get the most out of the forums.
     
  6. That's right, you posted an opinion and you have every right to do so. But so does everybody else on this forum. So saying:
    two sentences later seems more than a little hypocritical. I'm open to the possibility that you accidentally chose your wording in this manner, in that case I'd like to hear the "revised edition".

    I hope I don't start another war here, but this is how I perceived the discussion: Spaz posted his opinion. This opinion was worded in a way that most people, including myself, read it as a factual statement (not the same as an opinion!) and responded to it as a factual statement.
    What does that mean? Opinions can be argued, but can't be said to be "true" or "false". However, a factual statement is always either true or false.
    So a lot of people thought the statement the OP made was factually incorrect, and argued against it in that way (if I remember correctly, a few people even said things along the lines of "It may be your opinion that [xyz], but stating [abc] is simply incorrect").
    So no, it's not that people around here don't honour opinions differing from their own, it's just that they didn't understand that the original post expressed an opinion.

    Concerning the "ration of garbage" and people being "verbally assaulted": If you read the thread (both threads) again a week from now, I think you'll see that none of the replies was anything that might be called "verbal assault" or "garbage", by any stretch of definition.

    As to why the thread was closed: As RealityOne said, the potential for constructive discussion had been more or less exhausted. At that point it's the moderator's job to close the thread; at the Magic Café you can see what happens when nobody does that.

    There is one last thing on which I'd like to comment specifically: You comments regarding RealityOne. Saying he made "snarky replies" and posted "lines of tripe" and basically suggesting he was some kind of autocratic ruler on this forum is way over the line. RealityOne is the last person to need any help on this (as you can see by his rational reply above), least of all from me, but still I'd like to assure you that RealityOne is probably one of the most valued members of this forum. Why? He's always willing to talk to you, is extremely helpful and generous with his knowledge and talents. He has helped me and many others tremendously in the past and the present, and, I daresay, will continue to do so in the future as well.
    So while constructive discussion is always valued on this site, please don't get personal towards anybody.

    Good day, everybody.
     

  7. Well said...Now let's see that bottom deal. :p
     
    Mr_ARPY likes this.
  8. seems like the thread devolved into an argument of semantics and “I didn’t say that, yes you did” isms which is why it was closed.

    I think we can all learn from this and understand that the way we communicate matters just as much as what we want to communicate. Not likening a move and discussing it has limitations is completely fine. Calling others out for using said move isn’t ok.
     
  9. Well said.
     
    Gabriel Z. likes this.

  10. I was thinking and said the same thing... You probably have ESP.;)
     
    Mr_ARPY likes this.
  11. I also think that the reason you got so much backlash was because of how it was worded. It is perfectly acceptable for you to dislike the top change. For example, I actually dislike the pass. I think it's sort of an overrated move. BUT, I am not going to say it's an inherently bad move because it doesn't suit my needs. There are a lot of parallels here too. The pass, like the top change, is a move that can be smoothed out but never fully invisible. Both are meant to be done in an offbeat with sufficient misdirection.

    However, you worded it as if you were stating a fact. Here's a direct quote from your original thread:

    "This has nothing to do with practice. This is just one of those moves that is so easliy detected, that I just avoid it altogether... It's a really bad move.

    Regardless of who says what, the top change is always detectable, and is always seen no matter what angle you're at, and how fast or slow you attempt it, and regardless if you do and do not move your arm and hand the deck is in.

    Due to none of us having ever been able to do this without being detected. I've come to the conclusion that this is possibly one of the worst card moves in history to ever surface and only amateurs who do not know any better will use this move."


    You can not say that the top change is objectively a bad move because you have bad experiences with it, especially when other people speak from personal experience and have success with the top change. I understand that the move is very angly and open, but that doesn't bother some people and open moves can work in certain contexts, although they may not be for everyone. This is all subjective. You are completely allowed to dislike or even hate the top change but you can't make objective statements about it being a "bad move" just because you do not like it.

    You also say that we shouldn't have a forum if we aren't open to discussion but people were discussing it. Even if you put it out there as an opinion, as a public forum, you should expect people to respond with their opinions, and not everyone will agree with you. I fully support anyone's ability to put their opinion about magic on this forum, especially if it's unpopular as it prompts interesting discussion. However, it's hard to do that when the person goes into the discussion believing their opinion is a fact and expects everyone to agree with them, especially if you're going to call them "amateurs" or "brainwashed".

    You say "This is a forum, it's for posting. I never asked for anyone's opinion!" but that logic applies to everyone. Regardless of how you worded it, you posted your opinion to an open forum where anyone can reply with their opinion and everyone has the right and ability to do so. What matters is how that opinion is presented.
     
    Mr_ARPY, RealityOne, JacobJ2 and 4 others like this.
  12. Someone get this guy a moderator badge! Haha
     
  13. I would love that! Maybe I'll apply whenever they decide to add new mods haha.
     
    Mr_ARPY, RealityOne and obrienmagic like this.
  14. With my ESP, I knew you’re gonna say this :):D
     
    Gabriel Z. likes this.
  15. https://www.theory11.com/forums/thr...c-pass-and-classic-force-are-overrated.56686/
    Just as an example how politely, extensively and constructively topics are normally discussed on this forum. The people who voiced their opinion didn't claim to state a fact, but merely their opinion. They wrote "I don't see the point ..." instead of "There is no point doing ...", if you get what I mean.

    Oh, please do!

    I was actually able to record it last week, but that took much longer than expected, and then the computer gave me trouble so it seems I have to do everything over again. I hope to get round to it this week, but to be honest, I doubt it; I'm pretty busy at the moment. Anyway, you'll be among the first to know.
     
  16. From what I've seen of your work, it looks amazing. I highly suggest you share your work with other .
     

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