One move I refuse to do and never will

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Spaz, Nov 3, 2019.

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  1. One move I refuse to do and never will, is the top change.

    There are several people I consult and practice with (We critique each other) We're always honest with each other about what we can and cannot see. and so far we all refuse to do this move. This has nothing to do with practice. This is just one of those moves that is so easliy detected, that I just avoid it altogether... It's a really bad move.

    Regardless of who says what, the top change is always detectable, and is always seen no matter what angle you're at, and how fast or slow you attempt it, and regardless if you do and do not move your arm and hand the deck is in.

    Due to none of us having ever been able to do this without being detected. I've come to the conclusion that this is possibly one of the worst card moves in history to ever surface and only amateurs who do not know any better will use this move.
  2. The worst card move ever? Even though its taught in most classic sleight of hand books?

    I dont know hey, I dont use it all the time, but its definitely a tool I use. If you guys are getting caught then it's more than likely your fault rather than the move.

    It should be used on an offbeat. Not when the spectator is waiting for something to happen. It's a bold move but it's no way the worst card sleight out there.
    Dont blame the move just because you cant pull it off.
    CWhite likes this.
  3. To say that only amateurs use the top change is definitely wrong. I know that for example Shin Lim uses it a lot and a lot of other famous magicians use it too.
  4. If it's being detected and seen AT ANY ANGLE, then yes it's a bad move and not on the fault of the person doing it.

    I further want to explain that there is a difference between doing a move and getting caught as a result of doing it sloppy, and having a move detected and seen no matter what you do and who does it. I don't do the bottom deal because i cannot do it, but I don't go around saying it cannot be done. Top change is not the same issue.

    It is impossible to do the top change undetected. Whether or not an audience member says something, doesn't change the fact that they always see it.

    No one is going to convince me this is a move anyone would ever use for REAL performances.

    Using a move to practice, and using a move during an actual real performance are 2 different things.

    I don't even use this move during practice.
  5. Argue your limitations and they are yours to keep.
  6. Not really sure what that comment means due to not knowing the context in which you're applying it.

    I will say that the top change is being given a false persona for people trying to learn card magic because it's being portrayed as some MUST KNOW AND DO MOVE when it's far from it.

    Limitations have nothing to do with anything. I just don't encourage and or suggest anyone do moves such as the top change which can be detected. There are a lot of moves I know how to do but choose not to. But every magician is like that.

    Do I think practice is good for all moves just for the sole purpose of having the understanding of it, yes absolutely. Do I believe every move should be used in absolutely not. good or bad at it, just because you know how to do something, doesn't mean you should.
  7. Seriously, probably 100 years worth of professional, sold-out night after night card magicians will disagree with you. I mean this isn't even an argument for discussion. You're just wrong, my friend.

    Incidentally I don't use the top change, because I haven't perfected it yet. I believe it should be used sparingly and certainly on an offbeat.
  8. It is one of my favorite sayings from Richard Bach's book Illusions. It means that if you argue that you cannot do something (i.e. that you have a limitation) , then you will never be able to do that thing (thus keeping your limitation).
    Gabriel Z. likes this.
  9. I'm sorry but this just sounds like pure ignorance. Saying that "no one will convince you" is your problem. You are going into this convo with your eyes closed. I use it and I dont get caught. Like I said if you keep getting caught then it's your fault mate. Stop blaming the method just because you get caught. I know plenty who use it in their working repertoire including myself. I have done it surrounded and not got caught. So stop talking crap. If you dont like it that's fine. But stop thinking that what your saying is factual when all it is is an opinion.
    ParkinT likes this.
  10. I used to feel the same way. but now I realize that the move has almost nothing to do with the move, It's all about the timing. it's meant to do in the offbeat. for example when I want to do the move I make sure to use a large word on purpose. Then I do the move in the middle of that word.
  11. Wow... I'm lost for words from reading this...
  12. I use the top change all the time for two card monte.

    Am I a professional at this move? No. But I will say it is a move that does work. Yes I have been caught doing this move but that just means I need to practice more and perfect it. The best way to execute this move for me is to use misdirection and bring the spectators eyes to my eye level. I usually ask a question and make a conversation and that is when I do the move. I also turn my body slightly to the side as I am doing the move because your arm can cover the dirty work.
    @Seth Hughes has the right idea
  13. In a Garret Thomas penguin lecture he goes over his thoughts on using the top change. He talks about his body posture and a couple of ways he does the move, the why's and when's etc. While my top change isn't where I want it yet I have found his advice to help quite a bit.

    Someoen have another good resource they use?
    Antonio Diavolo likes this.
  14. I never said do not do the move, or that others shouldn't do it. This is about me, and what I personally choose not to do, because of it being a situational move. Not about who does it, when they do it, and whatever else. I have studied this move more than any other I know and do, and the more I break it down the more I can't help but to see how this is a move that goes against everything magic stands for. Everyone who does it is just so brainwashed about it's effect. It's like it's become a contest with people to see who can purposely do something blatant in front of people just for the purpose of seeing if they can get away with it and it's no longer about the trick. People can say that it's not about the effect and instead about the timing, but that's totally not the case with this, this is a move that is specifically about it's effect and has zero to do with timing. Any move timed right can be pulled off and anyone at anytime can see anything when looking. Magic is about it's effect of no explanation, not having something be done and having the audience say well I kind of saw something. You can time this right all you want, it's still detected every single time.

    But putting all that aside..Why can't I just have my post posted without having all sorts of "I'm wrong replies." You cannot tell me I'm wrong on my own opinion. I'm not here to convince anyone of anything nor am I going to try. This is my stand on this and it wont' change for the reasons I specified above. This is the only move I have a very serious problem with due to it being so obvious it's pathetic.

    If people want to do the move, good for them, I hope they're happy doing it. It's not going to change the fact that no one is ever going to convince me that this is a good move to do, not now, not ever. I will tell anyone the same thing. Shin lim could tell me this is a good move and I'd tell him it's not.
  15. Why can't you post without people telling you are "wrong"....? How you wrote your statements lend to these type of comments, using "absolute" statements certainly the attention of opposing opinions, I mean a strongly worded opinion is often met with the same energy. Reciprocation and all.

    Try being more general with some of your declarations instead of saying things like "its detected every single time" which may be true for you but in general is very also seems to undercut your statement that you know the move.
    Antonio Diavolo likes this.
  16. I'm not here to argue with people I don't like the move, and I don't do it. So rather than me just say the move is bad with no reason, I like to provide detailed reasoning as to my statement.

    People are replying to this as if I just committed sacrilege or something forbidden, and acting even more surprised when I replied to them in the tone they're replying to me in.
  17. You start with a hasty generalization because your conclusion is based on just "several people" and you try to extrapolate to everyone. You then provide a characterization based on that generalization (i.e. the "worst move") and insult people who use the moves as "amateurs."

    Self-proving logic. If I say I do a top change without it being detected, you say the audience still sees it but don't tell me.

    Then why bother posting if you aren't open to being convinced of other's opinions?

    I'm not sure where you are getting this, but a top change is like any other move. It has its advantages and disadvantages. It is a useful tool to have because there are some situations where its advantages outweigh its disadvantages in comparison to other sleights that could be used to accomplish an effect.

    Hmmmm.... you actually did when you said this:

    But let's continue...

    Now you are just getting carried away.

    I think most of the responses were designed to challenge your belief. I also think that most of them were respectful. It seems to me that you have been ratcheting up the rhetoric because people didn't agree with your "opinion" -- which of course you presented as immutable fact and implied that anyone who disagreed with you was an "amateur" who was "brainwashed."

    Feel free to open threads to discuss topics in a constructive way. Threads that come across as insulting, argumentative or bombastic frequently devolve into discussions like this. You are welcome to you opinion and I'm glad others expressed theirs in this thread. However, this thread has run its course.

    Thread closed.
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