Magic vs. Religion

pretty sure draven was only half joking as the position of the Catholic Church on magic is well known and documented throughout history.... just saying

now can we close this thread before it deteriorates any further?

Don't close the thread! Stop asking for it as well. This conversation can infact be very educational and can in fact help some people's magic and views on what they do. It all depends on the maturity of the people here. PLUS Micro modding always pisses me off.
 
We all know this ends up in fights and pointless lashes at each other.


i don't believe in "god" or "Jesus" or Christianity or Catholicism or Judaism any of the mainstream religions

Who the hell cares? This is what leads people to go on tangents that in turn, turn to fights.

my path is Occult, Black and Grey Magick real Psychic powers and that lot, so i don't know how much i can add to this discussion if it's based on the above
Good for you, you are not the only one. How does that help the conversation about how magician's present magic?

but if you let something control you that much that you wont do something because it's "against" a storybook then that's just brainwashing

This is another example of how and why people get their panties in a twist. Whether intentional or not, the last part here is in fact something that a troll would use to get a reaction. Grow the hell up people.

I understand the controversy that the beliefs can bring up, which is why i tried to make it about the approach people take to magic, and not the beliefs themselves

People react to the way you perform based on SO many different things, not just their beliefs, religion was more of an example to lead to a broader discussion of approach

Who in their right mind presents magic saying, "I call the powers of The lord of Darkness, to summon your card through a mirror"? No, one...or at least we have gospel magicians, however they are not the ones who you find on the streets. They are the ones with a very specific audiences, churches where their magic is viewed as a tool to teach the bible or whatever.

The question that is asked most often, if a magician's job is to entertain, why do magic? It's hard to learn and not as rewarding as similar disciplines that also entertain, both monetarily and status wise.

I agree with you here. If I am shoved away by religious people, just because I present myself as a magician, I don't want to perform to them. Stuck up, close minded, and generally psychotic people I try to avoid. Because, seriously if you think some dude showing a little party card trick is the devils advocate, A) I want to know what they are smoking, B) They're not worth my time. I work hard to be a magician and not some dude doing parlor tricks.


Well RikAllen....
If your job as a magician is not as an entertainer, what would you call it? Certainly you want your audience to be amazed, in awe and wonderment, no? All those things fall under the entertainment category in my opinion. Maybe you would prefer the art category, but magic exists in both...

I would also have to disagree with you on the learning magic is difficult thing...I would go with the "easy to learn, hard to master" adage. And I wouldn't say magic is any harder to live off of than any other entertainment profession, the hard part is finding your niche/venue.

Not trying to come off pushy or anything, just interested in why you think magic is not supposed to entertain.

You're splitting hair major! Magic is inherently entertaining and is a hard discipline! HOWEVER, Rick was saying there are much easier ways to entertain people. If I just want to be known as an entertainer, I'd just walk up to people and start talking and doing stand up.
Nowhere did he imply that magicians aren't entertainer, all he implied was if you are going to approach a group not as a magician, why even bother learning the magical disciplines in the first place?! Magic isn't hard? Well sir not to sound rude but, you're not trying hard enough, if you do not find making magic hard. Many outstanding magicians have day jobs, my advice to you is, stay in school and have a great fall back.
 
Sep 30, 2008
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Don't close the thread! Stop asking for it as well. This conversation can infact be very educational and can in fact help some people's magic and views on what they do. It all depends on the maturity of the people here. PLUS Micro modding always pisses me off.

I agree, the only offensive/immature things said were the usual he said she said things. People have been actively respectful of people's beliefs and the only fighting is the usual forum fighting that takes place.

William,
I would like to clarify something that you've been misinterpreting.
The idea practicing wizardry is the same idea as worshiping some other higher power than God himself since magic was not something that was physically possible without that higher power. God did not give that kind of power to humans, therefore if you were trying to achieve this power, you were using other means than God, some other supernatural power. While the text you referenced does point to the idea of God "Just not liking magic," he didn't just one day decide that magic was bad and didn't like it, but magic was something people tried to achieve by worshiping something else instead of him, therefore going against the commandment.

Worldwideme,
This is more of what I was trying to get at. There are in fact people who when they see magic, the only thing they think in their head is "What in the world could be the trick behind that?" And I think that a lot of people who do magic right now approach it that way. They assume that the only kind of spectators they are going to have are going to be ones who are just trying to figure out the trick behind it, therefore, perform the trick the best they can to ensure the trick can't be seen and the spectator is left in awe at not being able to figure out how it's done.

Now in my opinion I don't think magic should be approached in that way. I'll use Spectator A as the person who when they see a trick, the only thing they're thinking about is the trick behind it, and they know everything is just a trick. Spectator B is the type of spectator who when he sees a trick performed by a magician, has a fantastic reaction at the end and is not concerned with the idea that "It's just a trick."

If magic is approached in a way that you act like a magician when you perform (rather than a trickster) then Spectator B will have an incredibly reaction. Spectator A will think it's corny, but it will not ruin the effect because the awe of not knowing how it was done is still there. However, when you look at it the other way, when you approach it assuming everyone knows theres just a trick behind it, then you will impress spectator A as well as spectator B, however, spectator B won't have the same reaction as if you were approaching it as actual magic. Then there's a third factor. If spectator A is somewhat offended by the way you presented it (religion just being one example), then he or she will not enjoy it as much.

So my question is, is there a way to approach magic, assuming you have all three types of spectators I mentioned above, that will work fully for everyone?

-Kevin
 
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I agree with you here. If I am shoved away by religious people, just because I present myself as a magician, I don't want to perform to them. Stuck up, close minded, and generally psychotic people I try to avoid. Because, seriously if you think some dude showing a little party card trick is the devils advocate, A) I want to know what they are smoking, B) They're not worth my time. I work hard to be a magician and not some dude doing parlor tricks.

I ask the question to this as well
 

WitchDocIsIn

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Sep 13, 2008
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So my question is, is there a way to approach magic, assuming you have all three types of spectators I mentioned above, that will work fully for everyone?

-Kevin

I hesitate to enter this discussion, but the phrase above caught my eye and I can't ignore it.

Why would you want your magic to appeal to everyone equally? If everyone comes away with the exact same reaction, then you are presenting some pretty bland material. Anything artistic, anything with a statement to it, will be met with varying responses. People will agree or disagree with any statement, and people will interpret art in different ways.

The only way to make everyone react the same way to magic would be to present something that causes no emotional response and raises no imagery with which to agree or disagree. In other words: Inartistic crap that will be forgotten by the time the audience gets back to their cars to go home.

We cannot hope to be both artistic and to appeal to everyone in the same way. That being said, if someone is put off by a certain presentational style, why not just politely excuse yourself and not perform for them? It's the same as if they just don't want to watch us perform at all. Personally, I'm not going to waste my time with someone that doesn't want to see my performance for any reason, religious or not.
 

RealityOne

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Nov 1, 2009
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pretty sure draven was only half joking as the position of the Catholic Church on magic is well known and documented throughout history.... just saying

You are right about it being well documented. A quick Google search will reveal that the current Catholic position on magic is as follows:

All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. (Catholic Catechism 2117, emphasis added).

What most of us consider magic and mentalism doesn't fall in this category because we aren't trying to tame occult powers, but we are merely presenting an illusion. If you actually believe that you have attained occult powers and the ability to control demons from reading Tarbell, I would agree that such a belief is "gravely contrary to the virtue of religion" and probably indicative of greater psychological problems.

As part of this discussion, people may want to look at the Society of American Magician's website, there is an explanation of the Occult Investigation Committee (which traces its existence back to Houdini). The OIC looks into people who use magic methods to claim paranormal or occult powers. The issue being that people who claim those powers usually use them to make people's money disappear (and reappear in their own pockets) and discredit magicians. From the OIC's mission statement:

The usefulness of the OIC seems to be more current today than ever. The constant story of the gullible and innocent having their life savings wiped out by con-artists passing as fortune tellers and mediums continues at an all time high. The popularity of occult-related television shows that gives credibility to ghosts, mediums, and the paranormal are some of the highest rated. Many who claim to have powers to see into the future, communicate with the dead, and work with the police to find the missing have become celebrities, and at the same time lining their pockets on the backs of the bereaved. The relentless advertising of so called “certified Psychics” who can guide you by phone at $5 and up a minute brings in millions of dollars a week, paid by many who can ill afford it.[/QUOTE]

This goes to how you portray yourself. In many ways, presentation is difference between Geller (who claims actual powers) and Banacheck (who does not and who has actually worked with James Randi to expose those that make such claims).

I was actually referring to magic in the pegan, spell casting, witchcraft kind of sense. Not as in Illusionary entertainment.

***

Now, do you want bible verses? I can provide them for you, or are you good to go with a little history reminder? However for most for the sake of argument allow me to once again reinforce that my earlier statement about the Christian god's adverse preference to magic (or Magick for sake of clarity) is strictly reserved for the kind of magic performed by witches and Pegan spell casting lot.

Now with countless witches burned at the stake by the Christian faith, more hung by the neck until dead for the mere suspicion of witchcraft, and while we're at it please don't let me forget to mention that lovely little group of blood thirsty jerks known as the Spanish Inquisition, surely you don't intend to tell me that you don't think the Christian dogma is anti-magic?

Now I can quote bible verses but I'll just stick with one from Revelations, for sake of time.
Revelation 21:8

But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Your historical references are the equivalent of saying, "Don't go to the doctor because they will use leaches to bleed the bad blood out of you." Just as doctors don't use leaches anymore to try and heal people, I'm pretty sure nobody has been burned at the stake for witchcraft in the United States or Europe in the last 100 years (and I'm pretty sure that even back then no one was ever burned at the stake for making a rabbit appear out of a top hat).

I agree with your distinction between Magic (evidencing illusion) and Magick (evidencing occult powers). The bible verse you reference and the quote from the Catholic Catechism I referenced both are talking about what you would call Magick. I'm pretty sure that I'm not subject to eternal damnation in any religion for making sponge bunnies multiply in spectator's hands or for having a zombie ball float eerily in front of me.

Now, we all know that we do is Magic (illusion). However, if you choose to present it as Magick (occult), you do so at your own risk. In that case, I would speculate that your presentation is designed to get a reaction through the use of the concept of the occult.

However, I think what the original poster is talking about people's reaction's to Magic NOT Magick (or Magic presented as Magick for that matter). In part, I think any negative reactions will be a result of people confusing Magic with Magick. How you perform and your presentation will, to a large degree, influence the spectator's reaction. If you use the words "Purple Puppy Chow" to make things happen in a kids show (a la David Ginn), nobody is going to object on religious grounds. If you presentation is dark and your patter mentions summoning spirits, then you are running a risk of offending people.

At the end of the day, I suspect you are more likely to meet a heckler who doesn't like magic than someone who thinks you are the devil because their card rose to the top of the deck.
 
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The difference is in the library:
The magician has 'Tarbells', 'Modern coin magic', 'Royal Road to Card Magic', 'Our Magic', 'Expert at the card table' and many lecture notes on the bookshelf.
The magickian the 'Al Azif', 'Cultes des Goules', 'De Vermis Mysteriis', 'The Pnakotic Manuscripts' and 'The book of Eibon' ;)

Even Jesus did magic. Or let´s call it Miracles. If you believe in the bible, his 'magic' was the real thing. If you do, you have to admit he was the greatest magician of all time.
He invented the famous 'water to wine' effect which is in the repertoire of many performers (but still unmatched).
He was walking on water long before Blaine did and one of the greatest prediciton effects (although Moses 'Ten Plagues' was even more impressive) is also credited to him.
 
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There are drones and clones everywhere in the world. People who think and do one way think it's the only way. Even in the magic community, 'don't do that, no..do it this way, it's much better' (even when it's not). Religion is no different, neither is politics or sports for that matter.

Example? Sure why not:
If the leader things X, then all of the people who follow the leader will now believe X. If you show up with belief Q, people question it, ask the leader (who confirms X is the way) and they proceed to tell you that you're wrong.
Fill in anything for X and the opposite for Q, if I believe in Pro-Choice and a religious leader doesn't, his followers agree and proceed to tell me about the life in the womb and fingernails on aborted babies and why I should change my views. Strong example, but it applies here as well. I'm probably not going to be swayed by their pleas for help, as any opinion I hold is well thought out and logical. I'm also a firm believer that in most situations the answer lies somewhere in the middle, not on an extreme side.

Related example!
If a leader of any group says that doing magic is against their ways, and they have the respect of their followers (or have brainwashed them like cults do, don't drink the kool-aid!) then everyone within the group will spread those views to whomever they see.

As for a real answer to the initial post, "No other gods before me." has been translated (over the years) into everything that exists. Don't put more work into your car then your devotion to God, don't have a hobby that doesn't glorify God, and don't do anything time consuming unless it's reading God's word and praying about it. Extreme, maybe, true...in some cases.

The bible probably didn't mean to include things like hobbies-but many people have interpreted (<-key to everything) it that way.

I'll re-iterate my first post, think and do what you feel is right. Respect everyone else's beliefs, tell them you don't care if they believe that, you just have a different opinion on the matter, and go on with your life. Too many people want everyone to be the same...what a boring place that would be.

EDIT:: I just wanted to add that I'm not singling any one person out on this. Everyone who tries to sway others who have valid opinions are grouped in my post. Religious or not, I think discussing views is one thing-but forcing yours on someone else is another matter. Facts and logic ftw.
 
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It appears that religion poses an annoying problem to a cornucopia of interesting subjects. Whatever it is -- leisure or academic research --, christianity is there to plague it backed up by a book that was written by unenlightened people during the bronze age.

But then again, if more christians unbiasedly read the bible there would be less christians in the world now. For example, the whole purpose of being a christian is void because the deadline for Jesus Christ to supposedly come back has expired millenia ago according to the bible itself. I mean, even if this tale was somehow true, it wouldn't make sense to follow it because -- again -- it is flawed in itself, like a story that has holes in the plot.
 
I ask the question to this as well

What Question?

The difference is in the library:
The magician has 'Tarbells', 'Modern coin magic', 'Royal Road to Card Magic', 'Our Magic', 'Expert at the card table' and many lecture notes on the bookshelf.
The magickian the 'Al Azif', 'Cultes des Goules', 'De Vermis Mysteriis', 'The Pnakotic Manuscripts' and 'The book of Eibon' ;)

Even Jesus did magic. Or let´s call it Miracles. If you believe in the bible, his 'magic' was the real thing. If you do, you have to admit he was the greatest magician of all time.
He invented the famous 'water to wine' effect which is in the repertoire of many performers (but still unmatched).
He was walking on water long before Blaine did and one of the greatest prediciton effects (although Moses 'Ten Plagues' was even more impressive) is also credited to him.

Blaine didn't walk on water, Angel did, which does anyone see the irony in that? Also you are swaying the conversation away from the original topic, how? Well your analysis of the "miracles" of the bible is just asking for someone to dispell what you just said. Like I could say, that Jesus never existed and the bible was fabricated by scribes in egypt, which would make your statement that Jesus is the greatest magician ever. It would also cause others to question my view point on religion, which will also lead to more off topic crap. So to save the thread from nose diving more, I will just put everything that could go wrong in one post.

MOVIN ON.

It appears that religion poses an annoying problem to a cornucopia of interesting subjects. Whatever it is -- leisure or academic research --, christianity is there to plague it backed up by a book that was written by unenlightened people during the bronze age.

****ing aye, keep personal view points out of the fricking discussion! Congrats you are a skeptic, give yourself a fricking pat on the back, here is a cookie.

But then again, if more christians unbiasedly read the bible there would be less christians in the world now. For example, the whole purpose of being a christian is void because the deadline for Jesus Christ to supposedly come back has expired millenia ago according to the bible itself. I mean, even if this tale was somehow true, it wouldn't make sense to follow it because -- again -- it is flawed in itself, like a story that has holes in the plot.

I give up now, people are just asking for an opinion flame war.


I agree, the only offensive/immature things said were the usual he said she said things. People have been actively respectful of people's beliefs and the only fighting is the usual forum fighting that takes place.

William,
I would like to clarify something that you've been misinterpreting.
The idea practicing wizardry is the same idea as worshiping some other higher power than God himself since magic was not something that was physically possible without that higher power. God did not give that kind of power to humans, therefore if you were trying to achieve this power, you were using other means than God, some other supernatural power. While the text you referenced does point to the idea of God "Just not liking magic," he didn't just one day decide that magic was bad and didn't like it, but magic was something people tried to achieve by worshiping something else instead of him, therefore going against the commandment.

I am going to go ahead and break my stay on topic rants and just say this. MAGICK is soo misinterpreted. Most magicians don't worship anyone, nor believe in any ONE god or force. On top of that, I know many wiccans who base their practices around Catholicism. Think about magickal rituals as just a celebration of certain beliefs. It isn't about sacrificing animals, performing magick to cast spells and what not. ON top of that, what do you call prayer? You are praying to whatever lord for something or help. It is the same thing in the magick culture, we are praying to certain natural powers to help guide us or aid us through life. That is what magick is, magick is prayer! I am in fact a practitioner of pagan, pagan being different, forms of worship and I do not care nor expect anyone else other then myself to understand. This brings me back to the real discussion. Though I have these personal beliefs, I never intentionally push them on other people while performing, especially if that is not what I am being paid for. Unlike, most people on this forum, I do in fact have a certain target audience in mind and I assure you, it isn't a bunch of religion fanatics.

So my question is, is there a way to approach magic, assuming you have all three types of spectators I mentioned above, that will work fully for everyone?

-Kevin

If this is the question you were trying to point me too when you addressed my post, first and foremost, I can't please everyone nor do I pretend I can. Unlike, some performers I generally pick and choose the people I am going to perform for. How? Well by doing something every single one of you close-up street magicians should be doing, talking with the spectators beforehand. Doing this will make things easier for your performance because A) you can pick out the possible problematic ones. B) Find the Alpha C) Figure out how casual your patter can be (Not everyone likes Mr. polite magician) D) Figure out what tricks may be suitable for the performance. Not once do I think, "What can I perform that will please every person in this group of eight people?" That is an impossibility for me because I am pretty edgy in some of my current presentations.

To add further to the answering of the original post. You can prevent having religious fanatics cry devil at you by doing one simple thing. Stop doing magic on the streets, parties, schools, public environments and social events. Stop going out and performing and sit down with a tablet. Think about all the things you perform well and write them down. From there create a solid magic act, sell yourself, make money and perform for people that actually want to see your magic. It really is that simple.
 
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The bible probably didn't mean to include things like hobbies-but many people have interpreted (<-key to everything) it that way.

I'll re-iterate my first post, think and do what you feel is right. Respect everyone else's beliefs, tell them you don't care if they believe that, you just have a different opinion on the matter, and go on with your life. Too many people want everyone to be the same...what a boring place that would be.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the kind of brains t11 could use more of.

Simply put: Don't pretend it's magic, I guess. Or try and come off as it is. I personally always present my tricks as sleight of hand, I'd rather be looked at as an artist than a magician. That's more of the way I feel, and I doubt many of you feel the same.

People believe what they want to believe. You can't prove the gods' of many religions don't exist, you can't prove they don't. I guess the same goes for magic. There is no truth, simply put.
 
Dec 18, 2007
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Ok... I'm a theology student and you lost me when you said that, that particular commandment is the one that incites people to scream about Harry Pothead and Hobbits, etc... I can think a few half-dozen or so other passages that would make more sense; particular those that insinuate taboos about conjuring, witchery, etc. (and you need to understand that the translations to english aer generally WRONG... witch = poisoner for an example but so as to create a social-political element that makes women evil minions of the devil they used the word WITCH...

Religious zealots of all types will mis-apply the scriptures and of course "cherry pick" them; the passage from the old testament that they use for being homophopes is followed by one stating that eating shellfish is a Abomination... tell that to all the good Christians that go to Red Lobser after Sunday Services... but then, how many of them are stoning women for adultry or castrating men for rape? It's all a matter of how some charismatic schmuck bends and twists the words and manipulates the thinking of those he has access to... just look at our current problem in Florida and the jackass that was told by god to burn the sacred writings of another sect who happen to worship the same exact god these "christians" do... go figure... I guess they'll be burning the Talmud next, forgetting it's made up of the first 5 books of the Old Testament....

Pardon my rant, it's easy to get me peeved when it comes to bible thumper stupidity and the deliberate game playing that goes on; one church forbids playing cards or games of any sort but most especially games of chance because the Romans cast "dice" on the robes of JC... at least that's what Hollywood has lead us to relate to, not so much the factural course of events. Then you have those groups that forbid dancing while there are numerous passaged in both Old & New Testament that encourage celebration, signing , dancing and more

Bottom line is, if Moses was allowed to do big illusions along with JC and some of the other characters, why can't anyone else? But then we have another reality here... the fact that many of the biblical "Miracles" are being proven as 100% Natural Phenomena... Oops! Who's the charlatan and deceptive soothsayer?

Like Nuclear Power and Hand-guns Magic is only as evil and dangerous as the idiot weldiing it (there's just far more idiots trying to do magic than the other two)... and the idea of magicians creating evil in today's world is rather doubtful given how even the religious have come to disbelieve and understand the difference between THEATER and possible "Occult" type phenomena... but here too we have a linguistics issue; the word Occult refers to "Hidden" or even "Forbidden" but only to those NOT INITIATED into a specific area of knowledge. In the religious sense we are talking about the varied levels of clergy... and yes, we are speaking of those silly Christian boys... the very people that brought the world the original Black Mass (I'm not kidding; priests were paid to molest young virgins (boys & girls) on the altar for the amusement of area nobels... it is a charity function, you might say). The "tradition" of occult study goes waaaayy back in time but has always been tied to clerical rites be it christian or some other cult of popularity in a given era. However, there is NOTHING inherently "evil" about any of it; again, it's a matter as to who is using it and how/why.

The sad part to all of this is how these misapplied ideas and exaggerations/superstitions get sewn into the minds of young people coupled with a very real fear-factor around it all...

Some years ago I was working in the Nashville area as a Reader as well as doing shows. One night this really wonderful lady comes into the club with her face covered, etc. she aplogized to my for her appeareance but was fearful that anyone seeing her and recognizing her might report her to the local school board and she could loose her job as an elementary teacher... loose her job because she came to see a Reader?!

Fredom of Religion?... hmmm???

What makes this story even more sad is the fact that three nights in a row when I attempted to do a Book Test every single person that got the book was Illiterate and couldn't read or write... and yet people living in the mountain regions of this country (a.k.a. Hill Billy's) get made for typecasting them?! Where's Jeff Foxworthy when you need him?

Over a third of the U.S. fits into this particular niche group; they aren't the complete influence in this sort of thing, but they are a huge factor... ignorance and gullibility coupled with prejudice is the factor; we do have states after all, in which it is against the law to teach Evolution and other facets of SCIENCE!

GETTING TO A POINT... the next time one of this poor small minded folks try to save you from the evils of owning a thumb tip or swami device ask them if they can Read, Wright and do Math... you see, all three of these things were once part of the Occult arts as was the act of learning other languages, geometry, chemistry and a myriad of other arts & sciences we now teach and encourage people in the progressive world to learn and know.

I'll be one of the first people in line defending a person's right to believe as they choose and as you may have noticed of late, one of the first to tell the naysayers to shut up and give people that believe a bit of respect... none of us want others telling us how to live of act and that does include opinionated magicians telling people they're fools for believing in this or that... it's only your opinion and not a fact of life.

People's beliefs are powerful things; as a Mentalist I deliberately invoke belief in what I do... that's what makes our magic work the way it does. That does not mean I have the right to misuse that knowledge so as to manipulate others for the sake of personal gain and that's where one moves outside the role of "human being" in my book... think about it.
 
Your historical references are the equivalent of saying, "Don't go to the doctor because they will use leaches to bleed the bad blood out of you." Just as doctors don't use leaches anymore to try and heal people, I'm pretty sure nobody has been burned at the stake for witchcraft in the United States or Europe in the last 100 years

Actually in Afghanistan and Muslim controlled parts of the middle east there are still executions by hanging that is being carried out even to this day for the accusations of practicing witchcraft with as recent of executions being carried out as early as this year.

Also, Leeches are still used in medicine. Medicinal leeches are now making a comeback in microsurgery. They provide an effective means to reduce blood coagulation, relieve venous pressure from pooling blood (venous insufficiency), and in reconstructive surgery to stimulate circulation in reattachment operations for organs with critical blood flow, such as eyelids, fingers, and ears. The therapeutic effect is not from the blood taken in the meal, but from the continued and steady bleeding from the wound left after the leech has detached. The most common complication from leech treatment is prolonged bleeding, which can easily be treated, although allergic reactions and bacterial infections may also occur.
Because of the minuscule amounts of hirudin present in leeches, it is impractical to harvest the substance for widespread medical use. Hirudin (and related substances) are synthesised using recombinant techniques. Devices called "mechanical leeches" have been developed which dispense heparin and perform the same function as medicinal leeches, but they are not yet commercially available.

By the by, if you do not learn from history then you are doomed to repeat it. Just because it's happened doesn't change the fact that the Christian faith has imposed severe penalties before for the practice of witch craft.

Now, I can't back this up with references, but I'm fairly sure I've read in my travels that illusionists were targeted by those of the Inquisition, and had to be careful of how they presented their art for fear of being accused of witchcraft. Remember: Witch tests were as gaffed as magician tricks, designed to produce desired results no matter what the case.
 

RealityOne

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Nov 1, 2009
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Actually in Afghanistan and Muslim controlled parts of the middle east there are still executions by hanging that is being carried out even to this day for the accusations of practicing witchcraft with as recent of executions being carried out as early as this year.

Which is the reason I qualified my statement to apply to Europe and the United States.

Also, Leeches are still used in medicine. Medicinal leeches are now making a comeback in microsurgery. They provide an effective means to reduce blood coagulation, relieve venous pressure from pooling blood (venous insufficiency), and in reconstructive surgery to stimulate circulation in reattachment operations for organs with critical blood flow, such as eyelids, fingers, and ears. The therapeutic effect is not from the blood taken in the meal, but from the continued and steady bleeding from the wound left after the leech has detached. The most common complication from leech treatment is prolonged bleeding, which can easily be treated, although allergic reactions and bacterial infections may also occur.

Because of the minuscule amounts of hirudin present in leeches, it is impractical to harvest the substance for widespread medical use. Hirudin (and related substances) are synthesised using recombinant techniques. Devices called "mechanical leeches" have been developed which dispense heparin and perform the same function as medicinal leeches, but they are not yet commercially available.

That I didn't know. Sounds like the basis for some great patter.

By the by, if you do not learn from history then you are doomed to repeat it. Just because it's happened doesn't change the fact that the Christian faith has imposed severe penalties before for the practice of witch craft.

Now, I can't back this up with references, but I'm fairly sure I've read in my travels that illusionists were targeted by those of the Inquisition, and had to be careful of how they presented their art for fear of being accused of witchcraft. Remember: Witch tests were as gaffed as magician tricks, designed to produce desired results no matter what the case.

I would argue that the more accurate phrasing is that "some people, in the name of the Christian faith, have imposed severe penalties for the practice of witchcraft." Both great and horrible things have been done by people in the name of every faith.

Actually, the full quote from George Santayana (from Reason and Common Sense) is:

Progress, far from consisting in change, depends on retentiveness. When change is absolute there remains no being to improve and no direction is set for possible improvement: and when experience is not retained, as among savages, infancy is perpetual. Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

All this talk makes me want to start reading my copy of The Discoverie of Witchcraft which has been sitting on my shelf for a couple of months.
 
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Sep 30, 2008
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Pittsburgh
Ok... I'm a theology student and you lost me when you said that, that particular commandment is the one that incites people to scream about Harry Pothead and Hobbits, etc... I can think a few half-dozen or so other passages that would make more sense; particular those that insinuate taboos about conjuring, witchery, etc. (and you need to understand that the translations to english aer generally WRONG... witch = poisoner for an example but so as to create a social-political element that makes women evil minions of the devil they used the word WITCH...

Religious zealots of all types will mis-apply the scriptures and of course "cherry pick" them; the passage from the old testament that they use for being homophopes is followed by one stating that eating shellfish is a Abomination... tell that to all the good Christians that go to Red Lobser after Sunday Services... but then, how many of them are stoning women for adultry or castrating men for rape? It's all a matter of how some charismatic schmuck bends and twists the words and manipulates the thinking of those he has access to... just look at our current problem in Florida and the jackass that was told by god to burn the sacred writings of another sect who happen to worship the same exact god these "christians" do... go figure... I guess they'll be burning the Talmud next, forgetting it's made up of the first 5 books of the Old Testament....

Pardon my rant, it's easy to get me peeved when it comes to bible thumper stupidity and the deliberate game playing that goes on; one church forbids playing cards or games of any sort but most especially games of chance because the Romans cast "dice" on the robes of JC... at least that's what Hollywood has lead us to relate to, not so much the factural course of events. Then you have those groups that forbid dancing while there are numerous passaged in both Old & New Testament that encourage celebration, signing , dancing and more

There is much about the bible that I know absolutely nothing about, but when I understand the idea of getting a little uneasy when people claim knowledge about something that they haven't done the research for and actually have no idea what they're talking about. As far as that commandment goes and it relating to the issues with Harry Potter and things, the topic of the night was that particular commandment and it eventually lead to the discussions about magic and sorcery, and the wrongfulness of supporting these types of ideas.

Bottom line is, if Moses was allowed to do big illusions along with JC and some of the other characters, why can't anyone else? But then we have another reality here... the fact that many of the biblical "Miracles" are being proven as 100% Natural Phenomena... Oops! Who's the charlatan and deceptive soothsayer?

This is actually something I never thought about, the idea that God supports supernatural powers in some areas, but no other ones. The only rationalization I can see behind this is having him "choose" people to be allowed to do this, and if he did not choose you, then it's wrong. Interesting idea though.

Like Nuclear Power and Hand-guns Magic is only as evil and dangerous as the idiot weldiing it (there's just far more idiots trying to do magic than the other two)... and the idea of magicians creating evil in today's world is rather doubtful given how even the religious have come to disbelieve and understand the difference between THEATER and possible "Occult" type phenomena... but here too we have a linguistics issue; the word Occult refers to "Hidden" or even "Forbidden" but only to those NOT INITIATED into a specific area of knowledge.

Quoted because I like this. Getting into it though would get away from the topic though.

People's beliefs are powerful things; as a Mentalist I deliberately invoke belief in what I do... that's what makes our magic work the way it does.

This is something I think more people need to understand, and is a part of the point I was trying to make earlier about how to approach magic: As a "trickster," or as someone who attempts to use beliefs in what they do. One of the options is blatantly obvious, however, could be considered unethical.

Thanks Craig, I enjoyed that post.

-Kevin
 
This is something I think more people need to understand, and is a part of the point I was trying to make earlier about how to approach magic: As a "trickster," or as someone who attempts to use beliefs in what they do. One of the options is blatantly obvious, however, could be considered unethical.

Thanks Craig, I enjoyed that post.

-Kevin

This paragraph does not make sense to me. Do you mind rewording it so that it is a bit clearer?
 
Sep 30, 2008
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Pittsburgh
This paragraph does not make sense to me. Do you mind rewording it so that it is a bit clearer?

Read it with the quote above it. I was simply trying to say that it is saying the same thing I was trying to say in an earlier post of mine. When a magician succeeds in putting a sense of belief in the audience, then it is much better than just showing someone a trick, obviously, however, the ethicality of that could be questioned.
 
Sep 3, 2007
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William, my point was with you specifically referring to the Christian god, who is a character in literature. To say that he doesn't like something is an opinion because no one can "know" the thoughts of a character unless he or she reveals them. So, my point is, your criticisms were not accurate of god, but were accurate of people who claim to follow him.

With that said, I have one final comment. I'm really impressed that people have been trying to actually discuss and explore this topic with respect. Thank you to everyone. However, it's pointless to discuss the Bible, the cultures of ancient people in the Bible, and the motives and reasons behind characters or events in the Bible if you don't have academic credibility, otherwise, it becomes Sunday School, or what mainstream culture knows as "church." It's opinionated, and very much like gossip in the sense that a bunch of false information gets spread around as truth.

The Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek, which are vastly different languages than English. The Hebrew vocabulary is 1% of the English vocabulary, for instance. Many biblical authors were incredibly smart in that the structure of the writing is intentional and is meant to communicate specific ideas and concepts, which at times, may not fall in line with the actual words being written. It takes a lot of time, patience, and studying to decipher this stuff and even then you end up with more questions.

So with that said, this conversation should really stick to the original poster's main concern as I understand it. Instead of everyone explaining to each other the Bible and God and all this other stuff, and using Bible verses WAYYYY out of context just to promote a point, like a pastor, let's focus on today and the modern effect that religious thinking people have on magic and vice versa.

|| sean ||
 
Read it with the quote above it. I was simply trying to say that it is saying the same thing I was trying to say in an earlier post of mine. When a magician succeeds in putting a sense of belief in the audience, then it is much better than just showing someone a trick, obviously, however, the ethicality of that could be questioned.

Okay, so I did read it correctly before. My question is, why would it be ethically bad to make an audience believe that what you, The magician, is actually doing magic? Religion aside, because clearly not enough people are savvy in theology and can state an opinion unbiased, Why is making people feel that there may actually be unexplained forces, hidden talents, and other natural or supernatural happenings, unethical or even possibly be unethical? It is your job! If you present yourself to a client/crowd as a magician, you'd better pull some mind blowing magic and not mind blowing card tricks, coin tricks, pen tricks, etc.
 
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