Nobody likes magic

[Randy]

Think about like this. When you go to the mall/store/whatever, You are on your feet and usually not in a mood to be bothered by a stranger. you want to get to the store, but whatever it is you and maybe meet up with some friends for lunch.

The reason we have mentioned that places like the hospital/senior center are a much better started point is because they are stationary and are happy to have you there. So they are less likely to want to act like jerks and heckle you (even if you are kind of awful when you start). As opposed to doing it on the street, where somebody can easily do all of that to you and not feel any regret for it. Because they won't ever see you again.

 

[Steerpike]

I understand your response, but just remember that both of us are expressing our opinion here.

Dude... Where the hell do I start?

Saying that something is your opinion does not make you immune from disagreements and criticism. Pretending otherwise is a good way to get put on ignore lists. An opinion must be backed up with articulate arguments and defense. It is not and never has been an excuse to just mouth off.

In matters of personal taste, it's slightly different. But we're not discussing the merits of Charlie Parker compared to John Coltrane. We're not saying which of Stanley Kubrick's movies were his best. We're not comparing Thai cuisine with Mexican. We're discussing things that have an objective basis in reality. This is an arena in which some opinions are certifiably better than others.

In addition, you are just improving my point about how many people cannot take off the nostalgia glasses of magic.

I wonder how you would account for a 20-something millennial like myself then. I got into magic 10 years ago. Not a whole lot of nostalgia to be had there.

I understand that you are probably a far more skilled magician than me, but remember magic is an art. Again with all due respect, you've been in the business longer, but I feel as though if both of us performed a similar routine, I can go toe to toe with you.

Wow. A cliched, store-bought opinion with absolutely no qualification followed up immediately by an even more unqualified boast.

I don't like your tone. "Magic is an art." Implying what exactly? That you're the only one here with a background in the arts? I hope that's not what you're saying because that's pretty damn pompous and there's no way you're coming out of that smelling like roses.

And you actually believe that you are a better, more charismatic showman than seasoned veteran performers? Somebody had a nice big bowl of ego for breakfast this morning. Might I recommend a slice of humble pie for desert?

There comes a point in magic where its need to not to be viewed as different, but unique... Even though our views are different, doesn't mean mine or your can be right to their own extent.

This is word salad. These sentences don't mean anything. They're just empty platitudes to save face.

 

[krab]

I understand your response, but just remember that both of us are expressing our opinion here. In the previous thread, you may have inferred wrong. I did not mean to express that I am not bothered by someone knowing my secret; instead I was insisting that I am not worried about an individual that I will probably never see again search up how to do a trick I learned from him. In addition, you are just improving my point about how many people cannot take off the nostalgia glasses of magic. I understand that you are probably a far more skilled magician than me, but remember magic is an art. Again with all due respect, you've been in the business longer, but I feel as though if both of us performed a similar routine, I can go toe to toe with you. There comes a point in magic where its need to not to be viewed as different, but unique. I am sorry, but your response just seemed as if you were taking shot after shot towards me. Even though our views are different, doesn't mean mine or your can be right to their own extent.

Okay I'm taking the gloves off. There is no nostalgia glasses here. I don't come on here talking about all of the world class magicians I have met. Who i use to sit around tables with at conventions. There is no maybe to it. I am more skilled. I have twenty years under my belt. Some of the effects in my show I have been working on for those 20 years. I do not add anything to my acts unless it is stronger than something already there. It fits into the acts and i have been working on it for at least nine months to a year. I learn from books. I learn from lectures. I do not learn from youtube.I learn from magicians who are older and mores skilled than I. I know when you shut up and listen to someone who knows more than I do. I can tell you for sure right now if we did the same effect I would blow yours out of the water. It wouldn't even look like the same effect because I know four or five outs for most everything I do. There is also a chance that I have been doing it for a long long time. There is also a chance if it is an old enough effect I might have learned it from when guy who invented it. I know better than to tell someone who has been doing magic longer than I have been on this earth that I could go toe to toe with them.

Not only that I do not do an effect as sold. I break it down and make it mine. I make it a part of me and my act. I make sure it fits my character. I do more than just cards. I'm working on picking out a store front to open my own close up and parlor theater. So yes I am moving forward with magic. i'm not living in the past. I know how to find gigs I know how to hook clients and i know enough to know not to walk up to random people on the street and make them watch me do magic.

 

[Randy]

The main concern of this thread as been discussed. Rick gave a few good examples(Co-workers, Family, Friends), Krab gave a few (Senior centers, Hospitals, etc) all of those are better/easier places to get experience from. The problem with approaching random people on the street is that you are going to get less experience in performing and more experience in having people say "No.". Which if it were me, I'd much rather get experience performing for obvious reasons.

 

[RickEverhart]

Its funny as I sit here and read this I am in a hotel in Rochester, New York grading papers in a lobby. Beside me sit a group of 3 people in their 50s working diligently on a group project / presentation. Is it killing me to want to go over and give them a break from their work and do a nice little 10 minute set (since I have cards and rubber bands on me) yes, but I know just by listening and looking at them that I will NOT go interrupt and perform.

 

[meggisonj]

There is more than one way to skin a cat. Advice is given saying "people don't want to be bothered".

I say they do! "The game by Neil Strauss" Anything by Dale Carnegie. Back this up. Both best selling books. People want to be interrupted when it's done the right way. Every second of the day.. you are living or seeing many stories at once.. and the best part for magicians is... "people crave these stories" Robert McKee. Give people stories, Jebzy. If it seems like you have a motive of some kind of self promotion.. They don't want anything to do with you. This will make you the villain of the story.. trying to make sure their "good" is interrupted.

Even my dad hates to be bothered.. but when people use the right technique, they are like bees populating flowers to gives us more flowers and honey for toast. But only when the "long handled spoon techniques" are used.

If you are just a charismatic guy (another book by Steve Cohen the millionaires' magician I bought for a penny off amazon) They will crave your interruptions over and over again! Whenever I walk into a store or at a mall, I am the kind of guy they want to talk to, every time I show up. Relaxed.. childlike wonder.. interesting.. fun.. outgoing.. non threatening.. talkative.. never cares about rejections. I bring out the cards.. and they see the skill I have and they ASK ME for a trick. krab1. I agree with the German blog poster. Only because of it's approach.. There is no selling.. it's all jammed down the throats of people I call "victims". As for advice. Advice is given from the "speaker" to their former selves. Which I am sure you wish you had that advice. It's good for you to share too.. so the seeker of advice can pick and choose. But I focused mainly on techniques not advice. Jebzy is a different person in a different country. There is something called "Dictorum" Which means.. Miley Cyrus can say things that Selena Gomaz can't. Because of the backgrounds and social standing difference. Techniques I gave work for everyone with a human brain. Also I want to apologize the the my "covert attacking" yesterday.. I was stating something about the negativity.. and in turn I was negative about it. Not cool on my part.. I need to work on that.

 

[Steerpike]

Techniques I gave work for everyone with a human brain.

Technique is far less effective without adequate theory supporting it. I speak from experience. All the charisma in the world is not going to make someone stop and watch you do card tricks if they're trying to get somewhere in a timely fashion. If you've read these books as you claim, then you should also recognize the caveat that not everyone is going to go along. Maybe they're in a hurry. Maybe they'd prefer a little time to themselves. Maybe they're just not a fan of what you're offering in general.

Nothing is 100%. Let's keep that in mind.

 

[Craig Browning]

Time for the Nostalgia. . .

I've been involved with magic since 1964. . . I AM one of two successors to the Thurston-Dante legacy, the other guy is some hillbilly from Kentucky named Lance Burton. I have several illusions that I've helped co-develop over the years that have one numerous awards and I'm one of the most prolific writers on the topic of Mentalism and to a lesser degree, magic itself. So there's a few facts from someone that wades through Nostalgia. .. I'm 54, I'm allowed to remember, I've earned that right.

BTW. . . I don't care how charismatic you think you are, I would seriously give you a run for your money in a neck to neck competition and that would be by presenting some of the simplest magic out there. It doesn't have to be knuckle busting.

Your attitude reminds me of those that land a pot of gold and run out to build an Illusion Show. . . they believe that owning a fancy, overpriced box means they can do magic -- VERY WRONG!... there's at least one person in this conversation that works with Gay Blackstone somewhat closely, I know he's chuckling right now when it comes to what I'm saying; big illusions are every bit as challenging as a simple trick or even all that knucklebusting just in different ways. I've bought out shows from people with your attitude at 10 cents on the dollar in under 5 years after they attempted to prove otherwise. . . I love owning hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of magic that cost me less than $10k in most cases. All of it purchased from inexperienced egos such as yourself.

Now that I've given you the tongue lashing let's look at some truths, starting with the fact that you are inexperienced and unqualified to make some of the statements you've made. You have made some of these assumptions based on a certain level of rejection. .. guess what? You will see at least 20 rejections when trying to book a show for every one confirmation. . . this isn't because people hate magic it's because it's a numbers game just like any form of sales work. The more you plug away at it the greater your odds at confirming dates.

Part of your approach is to be FRIENDLY not arrogant or confrontational. I'm betting that you need some help in that department given how pompous you've been in this thread. Magic is a gentile art form that requires a light touch. . . you court your prospect and lure them in in much the same way you would a person you'd like to date. . . and just because you can't get a date doesn't mean people hate you, it means that something about you is not alluring -- not attractive.

Learn to use honey in all of your inner-actions and less vinegar, you'll find that good things tend to flow far easier, including people's desire to watch you do magic.

BTW. . . how old are you? Age can work against you when your are under 25 and trying to start out.

 

[SportsMagician54]

With all due respect to you and Steerpike, I've thing you've misunderstood what I am trying to say. For one, (this is more directed to steer pike) we are all expressing our opinions. How can you tell me that people don't want to be bothered and observe a magic trick when it is more than likely that we could live all the way across the country. What I am really trying to say: Most magicians are extremely judgmental to another performer just because their age, style, etc. There is no way you can deny judging by this forum. I also apologize for being viewed as ignorant and arrogant in this thread, because i am far from it. Magic is just a hobby of mine, but I am tired of every other magician and their mother not taking other magicians seriously because of their age or views. So what everyone is basically saying is that I can't be taken seriously because I believe that your performance skills are also interrelated with your image and appearance. Now I'm 15 years old and yes you can categorize me as a "Collins Key", or "Jarek 1:20" type of magician, but that doesn't go to say that I haven't READ(not watched) some of the most important books when it comes to principles and even the mental/physiological part of magic. The funniest part is Craig, that i've actually read both Psychic Technologies 1 and 2, and have learned a lot from it, it doesn't mean my style of magic can't be accepted.

Time for the Nostalgia. . .

I've been involved with magic since 1964. . . I AM one of two successors to the Thurston-Dante legacy, the other guy is some hillbilly from Kentucky named Lance Burton. I have several illusions that I've helped co-develop over the years that have one numerous awards and I'm one of the most prolific writers on the topic of Mentalism and to a lesser degree, magic itself. So there's a few facts from someone that wades through Nostalgia. .. I'm 54, I'm allowed to remember, I've earned that right.

BTW. . . I don't care how charismatic you think you are, I would seriously give you a run for your money in a neck to neck competition and that would be by presenting some of the simplest magic out there. It doesn't have to be knuckle busting.

Your attitude reminds me of those that land a pot of gold and run out to build an Illusion Show. . . they believe that owning a fancy, overpriced box means they can do magic -- VERY WRONG!... there's at least one person in this conversation that works with Gay Blackstone somewhat closely, I know he's chuckling right now when it comes to what I'm saying; big illusions are every bit as challenging as a simple trick or even all that knucklebusting just in different ways. I've bought out shows from people with your attitude at 10 cents on the dollar in under 5 years after they attempted to prove otherwise. . . I love owning hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of magic that cost me less than $10k in most cases. All of it purchased from inexperienced egos such as yourself.

Now that I've given you the tongue lashing let's look at some truths, starting with the fact that you are inexperienced and unqualified to make some of the statements you've made. You have made some of these assumptions based on a certain level of rejection. .. guess what? You will see at least 20 rejections when trying to book a show for every one confirmation. . . this isn't because people hate magic it's because it's a numbers game just like any form of sales work. The more you plug away at it the greater your odds at confirming dates.

Part of your approach is to be FRIENDLY not arrogant or confrontational. I'm betting that you need some help in that department given how pompous you've been in this thread. Magic is a gentile art form that requires a light touch. . . you court your prospect and lure them in in much the same way you would a person you'd like to date. . . and just because you can't get a date doesn't mean people hate you, it means that something about you is not alluring -- not attractive.

Learn to use honey in all of your inner-actions and less vinegar, you'll find that good things tend to flow far easier, including people's desire to watch you do magic.

BTW. . . how old are you? Age can work against you when your are under 25 and trying to start out.

 

[Steerpike]

With all due respect

This is like the fourth time you've said this phrase in 3 posts. You know what most people read that as? "Go to hell."

For one, (this is more directed to steer pike) we are all expressing our opinions. How can you tell me that people don't want to be bothered and observe a magic trick when it is more than likely that we could live all the way across the country.

Because I worked as a busker for three years and learned everything I know about crowd control and drawing an audience in the school of hard knocks. You?

What I am really trying to say: Most magicians are extremely judgmental to another performer just because their age, style, etc. There is no way you can deny judging by this forum.

Watch me go ahead and deny it anyway.

Magic is just a hobby of mine, but I am tired of every other magician and their mother not taking other magicians seriously because of their age or views.

No, we judge based on what comes out of your mouth and occasionally what your performances look like on video. You're being judged now on the fact that you're a 15 year old hobbyist and you boasted that you could actually compete for an audience with professional performers who have been paying their bills with magic longer than you have been alive. You do not have the level of real world experience that some of us do. And since we're professionals, that means if we don't book shows, we don't eat. The stakes are higher for us, necessitating stepping up our game further than hobbyists have to. For you to claim that with only a fraction of the experience you can compete with veteran professionals is one hell of a gauntlet to throw down, and you're getting exactly the reaction that you deserve.

Now I'm 15 years old and yes you can categorize me as a "Collins Key", or "Jarek 1:20" type of magician, but that doesn't go to say that I haven't READ(not watched) some of the most important books when it comes to principles and even the mental/physiological part of magic. The funniest part is Craig, that i've actually read both Psychic Technologies 1 and 2, and have learned a lot from it, it doesn't mean my style of magic can't be accepted.

I can read every great book on surfing in the world. Doesn't change the fact I'm going to fall off the board the first time.

 

[meggisonj]

We are TOTALLY getting away from Jebzy's question and bashing each other in the process. Different techniques for different people. If people like you.. They will like anything you do. It doesn't matter whether or not you've been performing for 100 years or 2 days. I think we need to be more accepting as a community. Maybe instead of bashing each other's voice.. actually redirect what has been said before.. or leave it alone.. or respectfully decline the advice. It's a world full of hate out there.. but we are inside shelter (or should be). That is the problem with magicians.. they are too eager to put each other down. Let's act like the oldest profession in the world. Give respect to get respect. I've been guilty too.. but we all need to change.

As for the books I've read.. you're right.. if they are in a rush they won't want to see it. But giving up is the worse possible choice for someone trying to make something of themselves and getting a day job without attempting their dreams anymore. There is nothing wrong with having a day job and trying to plug the holes of your dream boat.. but "give up" is the tone of the whole thread. Your advice worked/works for you .. good for you. My techniques have been proven time and time again by thousands of people to gain relationships with people. It's a whole new monster when you're trying to get one person to watch one session. Or the same person to watch 3 magic sessions with you. Jebzy, just try getting to know people first then pitch them your free services. Do this for an hour, and you won't go back. Take a buddy out with out.. so you have something called "social proofing" and you can create a "time constraint"

Side note: I've attempted to be a busking magician.. I can't do it.. I don't have the patience. So I commend you on your persistence. I'll stick to my busking when I juggle though.

 

[krab]

. How can you tell me that people don't want to be bothered and observe a magic trick when it is more than likely that we could live all the way across the country. What I am really trying to say: Most magicians are extremely judgmental to another performer just because their age, style, etc. There is no way you can deny judging by this forum. I also apologize for being viewed as ignorant and arrogant in this thread, because i am far from it. Magic is just a hobby of mine, but I am tired of every other magician and their mother not taking other magicians seriously because of their age or views. So what everyone is basically saying is that I can't be taken seriously because I believe that your performance skills are also interrelated with your image and appearance. Now I'm 15 years old and yes you can categorize me as a "Collins Key", or "Jarek 1:20" type of magician

I was elected president of my local IBM ring when I was 17. Age has nothing to do with it. It's an attitude thing. It's understanding respecting those who know more than you. No one brushed Joshua Jay off as a kid. Know why? He carried himself in a mature way. The fact to are lumping yourself into a made for TV magician and someone who just want fame and will do anything to get it speaks volumes about your maturity level.

As for knowing that people do not want to be bothered? I have lived and working in Ohio, West Virginia, Kentucky and Texas. There is one constant. People like to have their time to themselves. .

We are TOTALLY getting away from Jebzy's question and bashing each other in the process. Different techniques for different people. If people like you.. They will like anything you do. It doesn't matter whether or not you've been performing for 100 years or 2 days. I think we need to be more accepting as a community. .

We answered his question and he is taking our advice to heart. Go back and read his post.

As for if people like you they will like what ever you do? Tell that to my girlfriend. There are tons of things I do that she does not like. I have friends who i have had for almost 30 years and they hate magic. Never want to see anything I do. I have one grandmother who thinks magic is the tool of Satan. We are accepting of people who are willing to learn put in the work and the time. People who understand that magic is more than running up to someone on the street and doing a card trick. My normal day is more than working on effects and script. I am making calls, sending emails, going to see clients, meeting with a director ect ect.

 

[JButterfield]

It doesn't matter whether or not you've been performing for 100 years or 2 days. I think we need to be more accepting as a community.

This, i think is the key; the day and age in which we live has given rise to the death of expertise.

Somewhere along the road, there has been this idea that all ideas are of equal value, that everyone's opinion is as good as everyone else's, and that's just not so. Expertise, while largely dismissed nowadays, is still valuable.

What's clogging my drain? The plumber's opinion is probably of greater value, is more informed, and is likely more accurate that the accountant's, or the used car salesman's, or the molecular biologist's. And the plumber that's been on the job twenty years is bound to have greater expertise than the one who's just finished their apprenticeship.

The thing is, experience does count. s for 100 years vs. 2 days, I would take the expertise of someone with 18,250 times the experience. I would try to recognize the limits of my expertise, and the fact that i may not have the skill set to accurately judge things. Not every opinion is equal, and it's hubristic to think that one's opinion is the equal of one with a greater depth and breadth of knowledge and experience.

 

[SportsMagician54]

i completely agree with your response, thank you for that insight.

We are TOTALLY getting away from Jebzy's question and bashing each other in the process. Different techniques for different people. If people like you.. They will like anything you do. It doesn't matter whether or not you've been performing for 100 years or 2 days. I think we need to be more accepting as a community. Maybe instead of bashing each other's voice.. actually redirect what has been said before.. or leave it alone.. or respectfully decline the advice. It's a world full of hate out there.. but we are inside shelter (or should be). That is the problem with magicians.. they are too eager to put each other down. Let's act like the oldest profession in the world. Give respect to get respect. I've been guilty too.. but we all need to change.

As for the books I've read.. you're right.. if they are in a rush they won't want to see it. But giving up is the worse possible choice for someone trying to make something of themselves and getting a day job without attempting their dreams anymore. There is nothing wrong with having a day job and trying to plug the holes of your dream boat.. but "give up" is the tone of the whole thread. Your advice worked/works for you .. good for you. My techniques have been proven time and time again by thousands of people to gain relationships with people. It's a whole new monster when you're trying to get one person to watch one session. Or the same person to watch 3 magic sessions with you. Jebzy, just try getting to know people first then pitch them your free services. Do this for an hour, and you won't go back. Take a buddy out with out.. so you have something called "social proofing" and you can create a "time constraint"

Side note: I've attempted to be a busking magician.. I can't do it.. I don't have the patience. So I commend you on your persistence. I'll stick to my busking when I juggle though.

 

[SportsMagician54]

Hey, I hope you didn't think the debate to heart, sorry if i offended you or anyone else in any shape or form. I was just expressing my opinion and you were expressing yours.

I was elected president of my local IBM ring when I was 17. Age has nothing to do with it. It's an attitude thing. It's understanding respecting those who know more than you. No one brushed Joshua Jay off as a kid. Know why? He carried himself in a mature way. The fact to are lumping yourself into a made for TV magician and someone who just want fame and will do anything to get it speaks volumes about your maturity level.

As for knowing that people do not want to be bothered? I have lived and working in Ohio, West Virginia, Kentucky and Texas. There is one constant. People like to have their time to themselves. .



We answered his question and he is taking our advice to heart. Go back and read his post.

As for if people like you they will like what ever you do? Tell that to my girlfriend. There are tons of things I do that she does not like. I have friends who i have had for almost 30 years and they hate magic. Never want to see anything I do. I have one grandmother who thinks magic is the tool of Satan. We are accepting of people who are willing to learn put in the work and the time. People who understand that magic is more than running up to someone on the street and doing a card trick. My normal day is more than working on effects and script. I am making calls, sending emails, going to see clients, meeting with a director ect ect.

 

[Steerpike]

but "give up" is the tone of the whole thread.

No. No it ****ing isn't.

Show of hands, who besides me is getting a little tired of the attitude on this forum that one's feedback is a binary choice between sunny power-of-positive-thinking affirmations on one hand and miserable, defeatist fatalism on the other?

My techniques have been proven time and time again by thousands of people to gain relationships with people.

You speak as if you wrote the damn things. Yeah guy, here's the thing: I've read those books. I've also read titles you've never heard of. I've devoted a large chunk of my life to learning about people and how they function. I've actually gotten to the point where I can bull**** my way through a mentalism routine claiming to use science when I'm really using one-ahead, pencil dots, and a billet switch. If you're waiting for me to be impressed...

Jebzy, just try getting to know people first then pitch them your free services. Do this for an hour, and you won't go back. Take a buddy out with out.. so you have something called "social proofing" and you can create a "time constraint"

As long as you're bringing up all the pick-up artist stuff, yes I've read it. I've had a falling out with the community because the number of guys involved for the wrong reasons outnumber the genuinely good guys. And ultimately I prefer David DeAngelo's work anyway and his philosophy of total lifestyle overhaul to become the sort of person who naturally draws high-quality people toward him.

 

[Randy]

Nobody told him to give up, we've all given him ideas that will be better than having constantly deal with people telling him "No" or other such words. Co-Workers, Friends, Family, Hospitals, Senior Centers are all better ways of getting your feet wet than just approaching people at the mall. Because, the people at the malls are usually in a hurt to do other things and for somebody just starting out it's damn near impossibly hard to stop people in public. Specially for something like magic.

The Hospitals, Senior Centers and what not are a better/easier route because you are welcomed there and they are happy to see you. Thus giving them less of a chance to heckle you and act like jerks, as well as the fact that they don't have anywhere else better to be. They are technically your hostages.

 

[Jebzy]

No one said that I should give up. I don't understand.
I asked for advice and I got it. That's all what I wanted.

Thanks!

 

[krab]

No one said that I should give up. I don't understand.
I asked for advice and I got it. That's all what I wanted.

Thanks!

And we are glad to help.

Nobody told him to give up, we've all given him ideas that will be better than having constantly deal with people telling him "No" or other such words. Co-Workers, Friends, Family, Hospitals, Senior Centers are all better ways of getting your feet wet than just approaching people at the mall. Because, the people at the malls are usually in a hurt to do other things and for somebody just starting out it's damn near impossibly hard to stop people in public. Specially for something like magic.

The Hospitals, Senior Centers and what not are a better/easier route because you are welcomed there and they are happy to see you. Thus giving them less of a chance to heckle you and act like jerks, as well as the fact that they don't have anywhere else better to be. They are technically your hostages.

I'm not sure if they have any in Latvia but magic clubs can also be a great place to get your feet wet. Many of them hold at least one show a year sometimes more.

Hey, I hope you didn't think the debate to heart, sorry if i offended you or anyone else in any shape or form. I was just expressing my opinion and you were expressing yours.

Here is the thing. Yes yours is an opinion. What those of us who have years of work and performing under our belts have stated is hard earn facts and knowledge. We have real world events and books and testimonials to back up what we are saying. Therefor it is more than opinion but experience and in many cases facts.

 

[SportsMagician54]

There's no bad blood between us, right?

And we are glad to help.




I'm not sure if they have any in Latvia but magic clubs can also be a great place to get your feet wet. Many of them hold at least one show a year sometimes more.



Here is the thing. Yes yours is an opinion. What those of us who have years of work and performing under our belts have stated is hard earn facts and knowledge. We have real world events and books and testimonials to back up what we are saying. Therefor it is more than opinion but experience and in many cases facts.