ok - this abuse needs to end.

Sep 10, 2008
Or if people catch on, will someone performing magic in a social environment be perceived as "the guitar guy"?

Aw, I was going to bring this up.

You think professional musicians have an issue with people learning their art just to pick up?
You think that idiots with guitars whose repertoire consists of an entire 4 chords cheapens music?

Music still persists as an artform despite the mass bastardization of it that has been happening for god knows how long. People still appreciate music. People still enjoy music. People still are entertained by it.

Not saying that magic = music, or that you can draw conclusions about one from the other, but I hope you understand my point.
Feb 4, 2008
Blaireau, thanks for being one of very few who are actually understanding what I'm trying to get at here and taking it seriously. I'm not trying to subtly whine about Pick up artists, actually by having the basic philosophy explained to me, I'm -dare I say- in favor of the core values.

Do you think that just being better will work though? I almost feel like we might have a problem with the exposure that will happen - we already have to work around people thinking that magic is just for kids, now will we have to worry that we're "making a move?"

Also, remember when you learned what a double lift was? How easy was it to spot someone doing a double lift from then on? Or at the end of the effect you KNEW that the explanation was a double lift because it HAD to be. Our brain is very good at applying solutions to things. I know what you're thinking, if you were good enough at your double lift then you still won't get caught. However, what we're talking about affects younger crowds - like people who hang out at the mall, or other public areas that are great places for inexperienced magicians to try out some of their material - not just "clubs" or something. Could it affect younger magicians performing conditions?

I should probably stop myself from writing posts around 2:30am - I think they come out a little vague.
Good idea. Especially if you are the kind of guy who gets all twitterpated when just about everyone jumps on the board agreeing with your basic premise but, because they don't agree with every nitpicky nuance of your post, you feel justified getting argumentative.
Then again, by using the pre-frontal cortex we've been blessed with I would think that people would note that I was clear in what I was concerned about on the website, and specifically asked for all discussion of Pick Up Artists to be set aside in order to discuss the general idea of what I was more concerned with.
You must be a real magician since you seemed to "magically" piss away any moral high ground you may have had with that passive aggressive bit of absurdity.
Then I hoped people would follow the link and poke around the magic side of the website to see what I was talking about. Don't you think ripping off and stealing an effect would fall under the category of "negatively affect our art"? Or "Secrets not being respected"?
You brought this up. If that was the specific, and largest beef, you had with the website then spell it out in your original post. Instead most of us glanced at the site, didn't poke around because we all decided in a quick glance what we thought of it. News flash, most people don't "poke" around websites that they consider a waste of time. Obviously most of us didn't require a full examination to form a negative opinion.
I trusted I wouldn't have to spoon feed. I was hoping people would look at what they thought was wrong on that website (again, explicitly aside from the "PUA" aspect) and come to the thread with their own views, thoughts and opinions.
I think the only person here who needs to be spoon fed is you. Setting bizarre topic restrictions is ridiculous. "Hi guys here is a crappy website about using magic to pick up chicks....now I don't want any of you to criticize using magic to pick up chicks. Instead search through this crappy website until you find the secret something that he is doing that is bad!" Okay...Fine! I will...but if I do and I figure out that secret thing about this site that is ticking you off then I want a friggen prize!
I appreciate that you agree with Sleestak - but please don't declare that everyone agrees with his opinion, thus the discussion is now over because you say so. Obviously people still have their opinions and I would like to read them.
The person agreeing with Sleestak did not once "declare" that everyone agreed with Sleestak and thus the discussion was over....He said that HE agreed with Sleestak!

Next time you want to play these peculiar word games where you expect everyone to figure out your secret agenda do us all a favor and jot it down on a friggen billet!
Dec 18, 2007
Northampton, MA - USA
I think some people are missing the point- this isn't about pick up artists and the principle of it. It's about someone selling other people's effects and magicians principles to the public. The target market just happens to be pick up artists.

I admittedly missed that point and thanks for clarifying it. Yes, there is a reason to be concerned in that we are looking at exposure

There are magicians who perform regularly in night clubs, don't you think something this could hurt what they do? Or if people catch on, will someone performing magic in a social environment be perceived as "the guitar guy"?

I believe this is much closer to my previous rant; the fact that the actions of our fellow magi DOES affect us all, it establishes a very ugly reputation and all it takes is one or two jerks in a given area to ruin it for everyone. For an example, how reticent do you think parents are these days when it comes to hiring a traditional white-faced clown for their kids birthday party because of John Wayne Gacy and the handful of other pedophiles both, in the distant past and more recent times, fit that same mold?

Understand that Magicians & Puppeteers also fit this niche group for similar reasons. Especially given the frequency certain icons of our world have been caught-up in such situations but managed to pay-off the families and skip town before any kind of major damage could be wrought (and there’s not a single person on this forum that don’t know of this individual and the fact that he’s not the only one). But let’s set this scenario outside of magic and consider how many people now distrust both, Catholic Priests and the Bishops of the church because of the transgressions of a very small percentage of the priesthood. . .
. . . it’s the same exact thing guys; we ARE judged by and because of the antics of our fellows whether you want to believe that or not.

The question isn't why do I care, the question I posed is should we care? Will this affect us, if so- how? And what can we do about it?

When it comes to the whole exposure side of this issue there is little to nothing we can do; the kitty has escaped from his satchel and there is no putting him back. We owe this to many “things” the biggest being the temperamental “brat” that seeks revenge against the magic community for whatever reason he/she has come up with in their mind; typically it’s feelings of suppression and not feeling a part of the community or, more specifically, someone “Important” and “respected” – an individual that “needs” to feel important and knowledgeable. Too, we have an individual that has little to no respect for magic and so, they are going to do whatever they like unless we, as a fellowship, revert back to how things were done prior to the post WWII years (the good ole days when such traders had peculiar accidents – you must understand, magic has always been a cut-throat world that was at times, vicious).

Yes, for reasons noted, it will certainly affect us; especially as more and more rank-amateurs flood the clubs using the bits this guy exposes in the A-Typical clumsy manner most will do. Understand they are new to magic and want to show off, they’ve yet to learn the principles and psychology tied to the craft.

Slow down on the judgements and think about what he's doing, and the problems we potentially face if it catches on. There's no denying the "pick up artist" community is a growing demographic, and I don't think they're going to be very concerned about keeping magic a secret, or spending hours building the correct presentation of an effect.

Needless to say, my sentiments here would but echo what’s already been stated and what should be obvious to one and all. Unfortunately, the previous few pages of rebuttal seem to defend the predatory antics of the PUA which seems to suggest that no one cares too terribly much about the Cause & Effect scenario here, so long as they can go out and snag some tail when the mood hits them, regardless the cost and the price that must be endured by those vested in magic that look upon it in a much “higher” sense of responsibility.
The website is already offering a "mentalism" effect using the PATEO force, and saying it was invented by the website creator's best friend Eric.

If there is the ability to post a comment to such things, expose the exposers by posting the actual lineage of this and the other items these clowns wish to call “their own”. ALWAYS include links (if possible) to legitimate magic sites that can verify the historical purview (even Wiki can work in some cases). Essentially, fight fire with fire. Too, share a clarified point of view on this topic on other forums, especially the larger forums like Magic Café, TalkMagic in the UK, etc. so word gets out and pressure on the jerkasaurouses can intensify, such as the popular petitions found on sites to ban exposure videos on YouTube.

NOTE TO ALL -- I did not read through the entire thread until after I posted this reply, seems I wasn't the only one to "miss the point". Nonetheless, I still believe and support the gist of the comments made above, in response to our friend's previous post.
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Sep 1, 2007
Cleveland, Ohio
Who cares? I've seen worse douchebag magicians that weren't picking up chicks that I would say hurt the image of our art far worse than some guy who uses it to pick up girls (Hey! Look at my card tie and my bright green blazer! Now watch these billiard balls multiply!) . Hell even I use it to pick up girls. It's no different than a guy who can sing his ass off and picks girls up that way, does that hurt the art of singing? Of course not. So my suggestion is to stop worrying about who and how other people use and perform magic and focus on yourself. As they say, be the change you want to see in the world.
Sep 1, 2007
Belgrade, Serbia
Ok, I won't lie, I have read a few PUA books, however I don't have this PUMA program, nor am I going to get it, nor do I think I am a PUA. Now since this is not a dicussion about PUA's, I will leave my oppinion on that for some other thread.
Will this guy's program hurt magic? We'll have to wait and see. I really think it will. It may not hurt me, or any of you guys here, but it is going to hurt magic in general, and most importantly, it's going to hurt the spectators of that "magic". The one to blame here (besides the idiot who made the program) is Mystery, the "best" pick up artist in the world. Why? Because he is also a magician, and wants to have a stage show and what not... First of all, he is the main reason that this program exists because he is the best PUA, so every other guy who want's to become PUA, wants to be like him. So if Mystery is doing magic, the "guy" will want to do magic. If Mystery eats a plate of crap every morning, and says it helps him in the "Game", than every aspiring PUA will start eating crap for breakfast.
The other reason why is Mystery to blame is because he actually gave thumbs up to this guy to make the program, and even wrote a review and a comment about the program. He was the one, if he really considers himself a magician and follows the magicians code, who was supposed to say to the guy "Hey, don't do it, I'm a magician and I don't want to see it exploited in that way", and the guy would probably listen because Mystery is "the man". The PUA community is not as big as other communities... yet. But pretty soon, you will see a bunch of guys in clubs doing "levitating drinking straw" from a hot girls glass.
So I don't think (however, I'cannot be sure) it's going to affect many of us personally, but it is going to affect the idea of magic/magicians for the people (hot chicks) that these people will perform for. And the worst thing is, they probably won't even call themselves magicians.

I may have complitely missed the point of the thread, but anyways, those are my thoughts just off the top of my head.
Jul 17, 2011
To OP:
Pretty much no....to every point you made.

So, discussion on "Pick up artists" aside. Please. Brainstorm time- what can we do about this? This can seriously negatively affect our art.

No, I don't think it can. And I don't think it is. At all. I think the question should be "what should we do about this?" and the answer should be "nothing." Because people will use magic for whatever reason they want. To shove it into your own personal idea of what it "should be" is simply wrong. I'm not advocating "PUMA's", but you have to accept the fact that not everyone does magic as a beautiful art. Its used for all kinds of things and in all kinds of different ways. As a magician, you should accept this fact and embrace it.

If this keeps up, what we do will become trivial - the secrets are obviously not being respected, just abused as "tools" for someone's self interest.

50/50. Some people respect the art, some don't. You can't make 100% of people respect anything. I mean, you can take any point and find someone who will argue against it. My point is, people will use magic in ways that are different than what you believe to be the "correct" use, but trying to make people conform to your ideologies, is simply wrong. People use magic in all sorts of ways (to be funny, to be serious, to make people happy, to make money, to show off to their friends...to pick up chicks) This isn't wrong in any way. Those who respect magic as a beautiful art will not be turned off by some "PUMA" picking up chicks with magic. They will understand that their view of magic is different and move on.

Let's say you saw someone like "Brad Jackson" out in public doing his "kitty" thing. How would you handle it? What would you do? Why would that be effective?

I would watch and embrace the fact that magic has many uses. I wouldn't scoff and look away or curse at him.

But seriously, calling this "abuse" is ridiculous.

I think you guys are taking this WAY too seriously. This isn't going to hurt magic or change magic. Its really not.
Oct 17, 2010
Athens, Greece
Really? Really? That's what you care about? A lame guy who probably is still a virgin and thinks he's a magician by doing a riffle force? There are 9 year olds revealing tricks on YouTube. There are awful "performers" revealing tricks everywhere. There are torrents and piracy and blah blah blah... And you care about the PUMA? (btw that made me laugh so hard)

Of course his site should close, as the YouTube revealers accounts should be closed etc. But what you gonna do?

Leave the kids fighting for YouTube fame, leave the PUMA trying to get laid and represent your art with the best way possible.
May 21, 2011
Being a 75% magic purist, this guy pisses me off, but being a realist, I know it won't really effect the art in a significant way.
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