Penguin Magic's Attempt at The Wire

Status
Not open for further replies.

Andrei

Elite Member
Sep 2, 2007
439
24
35
Las Vegas
www.youtube.com
The magic market is full of cheap imitations, why should this be any different? Welcome to the world of competitive business.

Even in the world of business, there are such things as integrity and ethics. Yes, countless companies have made knock-off iPhone's and iPad's over the past few years. But that doesn't mean those companies deserve your respect, or possess one ounce of creative integrity. Most of them have failed, or are right on the verge of collapse (ie, Blackberry). There is great value in creativity, and there is something to be said about doing the right thing.
 
Sep 7, 2008
608
0
Jeff,

I'm not quite sure of what Lower Standard you're referring to, as ours are higher than anywhere - both for theory11 productions and on The Wire. If it's an original effect, idea, flourish, etc, we allow it to be published on The Wire. If it isn't original whatsoever, we reject it. We've rejected countless effects already that looked great, but were not original enough to warrant a new release. All effects are properly vetted for crediting and originality by our team (including Jason England and Dan White) prior to publication.

Regarding the "anyone can do it" phrase - I found that phrase a bit ironic coming from someone, like me, who is a teen with multiple published effects. Anyone can do anything. Age means nothing. The Wire allows for anyone with an original idea and enough creativity to make a name for themselves based only on the merit of their idea. It's revolutionary because of that. And it's "new" because before September 2nd, it never existed. Things that didn't exist before and now exist is a pretty solid definition of "new."

The lower standard I referred to is that while many ideas can be new and creative, that doesn't necessarily mean they're good. As pointed out elsewhere, The Wire will accept material that's mediocre, as long as it's not copied. Naturally, this magic will sink to the bottom, but it will still be there. With that said, I agree; the products that Theory11 produce themselves are some of the best in the business.

Age means nothing, agreed. It's a point I write about a lot. I, like many, am uninterested in a person's age. After all, anyone can grow old. Other companies have allowed people with "an original idea and enough creativity to make a name for themselves". All you had to do was press the "Submit" button. Similarly, any magazine accepts submissions for original tricks - and they will look past your age, as well.

There's a certain sense of accomplishment when you get published in a magazine or have a company produce your work. I think anyone who has gone through the necessary steps of doing one of the above can attest to that. I wonder if The Wire produces the same feeling.

It's certainly a good and successful idea, but I'm still not convinced it's "revolutionary".
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,182
119
31
Houston, TX
How can you possibly make that statement? It doesn't even exist yet, RK. It's a Google Doc form for submissions - a hastily made rip-off of a beautiful, original, well executed idea by theory11. Take a step back for a moment and respect creativity, respect originality, and most of all, respect theory11. If you thought of something new and worked on it for years to polish and execute the idea, how would you like to see it copied and butchered a week later?

Oh I respect creativity and originality. I'm a creator myself. Kudos to Theory11 for being the first to come up with this idea. You can hardly blame Penguin, though, they have to do something to keep up. I will say this, though, - I won't use either Penguin or The Wire for any of my effects without first seeing if they can be published and professionally produced directly through E, PCP, T11 or whoever else. Let me elaborate on my original post.

Here are the reasons why I like Penguins more than The Wire.

1. Obviously, 70% as opposed to 60% is given to the creator.
2. You get your own private discussion forum. Depending how good (or bad) your effect is will depend on the activity here. Also, if your effect has a lot of room to get creative, you can use this to discuss these types of ideas amongst those who perform your effect.
3. You get your own custom magitar. Maybe this is a stupid reason but since they started making these for their artists, I've wanted one!
4. I love the sales tracking.
5. I believe that more magicians shop with Penguin. This means more exposure, and potentially more sales.
6. (Don't quote me on this one) but from the sounds of it, your effect will be on the front page of the site as opposed to being inside a little section called The Wire
7. Not only are they only taking 30% but they will also stock your own actual DVD's and gimmicks and ship them out for you as opposed to only being able to produce downloads.
8. And most of all, I like it because it works on my computer. I think Theory11 has gotten TOO focused on high quality. The only reason I have gotten to see The Wire is because I have looked on my friends computer that is built. Otherwise, it (as well as some preview videos for effects) won't work on my computer.

Lastly, you can't blame Penguin for this; It's business. Look at it this way - Apple released the iPad, practically a whole new type of computer. Now, you see that HP, Samsung and others have released their own versions of the touch pad. Why? Because it's business. They have to do something to keep up with Apple. If they don't, they are losing potential sales, potential customers as well as money.
 
Mar 10, 2011
59
0
You guys, so what?
You guys are really going to get all uppity about imitation? Working in the magic business? Here's how i view it: Take a look at Magic Makers, they come out with the dumbest cheap ass products every year (the worst is the damn "black spider deck"). But why do they do it? Simple, because people will buy it, mostly laymen and kids at tourist magic shops. As magicians, none of us in our right mind would buy the original Devil's Nail for "only $600", we would flip off the guy at magic max or Daytona magic and buy the Devil's Nail 2.0 for less than half the price. If penguin wants to take a leap and imitate theory 11's "original gangster" idea, so be it. All that happens is 1)A bunch of kids make videos teaching "their special handling" of an erdinase or 2) Penguin gives enough sh**s not to let the kids post just anything and they reject all the submissions because all the original artists go to theory 11. What's different between penguin and theory 11 is that penguin is known by many, many more laymen and hobbyists, while Theory 11 is full of the elite whom are serious about their art. just saying.
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,182
119
31
Houston, TX
What's different between penguin and theory 11 is that penguin is known by many, many more laymen and hobbyists, while Theory 11 is full of the elite whom are serious about their art. just saying.

Are you referring to the forums or in general? Maybe this is true for the forums but plenty of very knowledgeable and "elite" magicians who are serious about their art release through and purchase from Penguin.
 
Aug 2, 2011
150
0
California
If penguin wants to make a variation I believe they are more than welcome to. You always have to keep up in business. In a year from now you will all have opinions over which one you like better, and probably wont care about the other. I think everyone is just a little pissed because The Wire is new and came first so you are going to be defensive over it.
 
Dec 5, 2009
33
2
If penguin wants to make a variation I believe they are more than welcome to. You always have to keep up in business. In a year from now you will all have opinions over which one you like better, and probably wont care about the other. I think everyone is just a little pissed because The Wire is new and came first so you are going to be defensive over it.

I think the problem here is that it's not a variation, it's a poor ripoff. If you created an original, awesome effect and two weeks later I publish the same thing, you wouldn't call it a variation--you'd shout from the rooftops that your original idea was copied. theory11 created something new, groundbreaking, and refreshing. What Penguin has done is shameful. I support theory11 and I respect originality. This is wrong. And no, I don't want a magitar.
 
May 18, 2008
807
0
I don't wish to become heavily involved in this argument, but I will say the following:

-Saying that The Wire is completely innovative is a HUGE stretch. As stated in this post, every magic website has a submission feature; Theory11 just gave it a separate, aesthetically pleasing section on the site.

-If a submission section is supposed to be original, then the differences between the Wire and the Penguin Partnership are varied enough to make for two separate submission programs.

-As a creator (and as biased as I will sound), what's best for me along with other creators is options. Choices. Decisions. Having more than one company to go with makes for flexibility. After all, Penguin and Theory11 release different products, and kinds of products. Regardless of copying, this variety is best for all of the people out there that both Theory11 and Penguin claim to offer the best program towards.

Regardless of if it was copied or not, both companies are within talks and I am sure a diplomatic solution will be found. I look forward to seeing how this progresses. I like them both.
 

JD

Jul 5, 2009
638
1
Longview, Texas
I think the problem here is that it's not a variation, it's a poor ripoff. If you created an original, awesome effect and two weeks later I publish the same thing, you wouldn't call it a variation--you'd shout from the rooftops that your original idea was copied. theory11 created something new, groundbreaking, and refreshing. What Penguin has done is shameful. I support theory11 and I respect originality. This is wrong. And no, I don't want a magitar.

......I do....
 

formula

Elite Member
Jan 8, 2010
968
5
Even in the world of business, there are such things as integrity and ethics. Yes, countless companies have made knock-off iPhone's and iPad's over the past few years. But that doesn't mean those companies deserve your respect, or possess one ounce of creative integrity. Most of them have failed, or are right on the verge of collapse (ie, Blackberry). There is great value in creativity, and there is something to be said about doing the right thing.
Do you think Apple got where it has by doing the right thing? Business can be cruel and the sad truth is that you can be the first to do something but not the most praised or respected. As you pointed out, cheap copies usually don't last but I think it's great that Penguin are doing this. The service may not be exactly the same as T11 but it offers a competitive rate which, however immorale, is healthy for business.
 
May 18, 2008
807
0
Andrei, before I start typing, I would like to say that I definitely see where you are coming from.

However, as stated, every magic company has a submission section. Not all of them are out in the open like Theory11's (and now Penguin's). Personally, I know several magicians who went to two (or more) companies, submitted a product and went with the one which they preferred.

Regardless of copying (which is difficult to say as both sites had submission programs before), having this added flexibility is best for the creators. Personally, I think it isn't worth arguing about on a forum. Both companies are in talks, and I know that something will be reached.

All the best!
 
Sep 2, 2007
38
0
I remember several complaints how T11 was an E knockoff when it first started.

Just let it play out and see what happens.
 

Lyle Borders

Elite Member
Aug 5, 2008
1,604
859
Seattle, WA
www.theory11.com
I don't think it's right to justify immorality with negligible financial advantage. Integrity is worth more than 10%.

Quoted for truth. If I know someone cannot act ethically in their business dealings, I will not do business with them. Plain and simple. To do otherwise shows an extreme lack of maturity and integrity.

This is beyond the frustrations that come from a new form of competition. I expect that competitors will come. What I did not expect was the copy/paste knockoff of The Wire to come so quickly and with such poor quality. I think it is a mockery to all magicians. There is no quality there. The idea has been out there for only a couple of weeks. The entire system is a Google Doc. The gimmick storage/shipping system could not possibly be thought through enough to provide any of you with a quality system.

You are being baited to Penguin, just like to any company that wants your business. They have a higher royalty percentage. That is expected from a competitor. They have "Magitars." If this is incentive to you, I don't even know where to go with you. They offer a small handful of ideas, each one designed to try to one-up The Wire. It feels like a cheap shot if I have ever seen one.

When it comes down to it, you will see the quality difference. It is already evident. It will become more evident the longer this draws out. I am interested to see what happens. It really is a shame, and I thought that Penguin Magic, the company that got me back into magic for the first time since I stopped as a kid, would have been better than this.

Time to dig for facts.

L
 
Sep 18, 2011
1
0
Quoted for truth. If I know someone cannot act ethically in their business dealings, I will not do business with them. Plain and simple. To do otherwise shows an extreme lack of maturity and integrity.

This is beyond the frustrations that come from a new form of competition. I expect that competitors will come. What I did not expect was the copy/paste knockoff of The Wire to come so quickly and with such poor quality. I think it is a mockery to all magicians. There is no quality there. The idea has been out there for only a couple of weeks. The entire system is a Google Doc. The gimmick storage/shipping system could not possibly be thought through enough to provide any of you with a quality system.

You are being baited to Penguin, just like to any company that wants your business. They have a higher royalty percentage. That is expected from a competitor. They have "Magitars." If this is incentive to you, I don't even know where to go with you. They offer a small handful of ideas, each one designed to try to one-up The Wire. It feels like a cheap shot if I have ever seen one.

When it comes down to it, you will see the quality difference. It is already evident. It will become more evident the longer this draws out. I am interested to see what happens. It really is a shame, and I thought that Penguin Magic, the company that got me back into magic for the first time since I stopped as a kid, would have been better than this.

Time to dig for facts.

L

What facts, Lyle Borders? It happens! This is supposed to be for the creators, and variety is good for them. So stop pretending to care about creators... if you did, you would welcome this. And if you think that the quality difference is obvious, why don't you let people think for themselves? Why do YOU have to tell them that?

If you practiced what you preach (integrity) you would let the issue be.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Searching...
{[{ searchResultsCount }]} Results