Self Promotion too Goush?

[William Draven]

I was about to type out a thread post advertising some gigs I'm doing next month, and then it hit me...

Is shameless self promotion too goush? I mean is there a standard net-etiquette for this kind of thing? Is there a line between someone else promoting your stuff, and you doing it? Or is a forum like this even the place to post such things?

What do you think? Would you use a forum, or magicians community like theory11 to pimp your own stuff?

 

[formula]

Is there a line between someone else promoting your stuff, and you doing it?

No but there is a line between showing off the odd video, blog, picture, story....and using forums as a place to post updates, that's what Twitter, facebook etc...are for. Unless a forum has a section specifically for showing stuff off. For me, this forum is about discussing magic as a whole, different products, helping people (advice) and not about promoting individuals. Professional magicians don't want magicians to follow them anyway because magicians don't book magicians, laymen do. Which is why I'll never post my website, facebook or any of my videos.

I think it can very easily make people look desperate if they continually post updates on things that aren't really for this forum.

 

[ZER0]

I don't post as often as I should but I have been on this site for years and have only been an actual member for about half that time. Id say from my experience w/T11 is that there IS a line! Over doing it can just be annoying to everyone that comes here for knowlege and advice but you have been a prevolent member for years now!! We all know you through this site! We've all disgused various topics along side you so I would tend to say that you have earned the right to toss out a few notes on what you're up to! We all want to progress which is exactly what gigs are, progression, or at least a chance to! Id say that SHAMELESS self promotion is annoying...but OCCASIONAL updates as to what you have coming up are just fine. If someone doesn't care then they don't need to read the thread! Its just that easy. Pimp away my friend...pimp away!

 

[William Draven]

Well I thank you very much for the kind words to my personal situation, but lets examine this subject from a greater distance.

The point I'm getting at is what if Joe Teenager who is just getting out in the working world doing shows (often free or for little pay) wants to get the word out more, generate his fan base, locate his followers etc... of course we know that he should be using twitter or facebook, but what about internet forums... should he inform a community he's involved in of his activity?

As you pointed out, if you don't care to read that kind of thing, don't click the link... or is there an unwritten rule of the community that should be observed? Is this the place to post that kind of thing?

As you said, once in a while, would that be okay for Joe Teenager? Or do you think it would draw too much heat from the community if it happened too much or just a little bit?

 

[ReservoirRed]

I think that internet forums are the perfect place for Joe Teenager to promote him or herself. If he or she is trying to make a start in the magic community, the forums are a perfect place to get feedback,criticism and support. Most joe teenager magicians either wont have their own website, or wont be getting a lot of hits, so even if it's just enough promotion to guide traffic toward their own website I see it as a good thing for them. I know that no one wants to see the forums fill up will advertisement threads, but I dont see it getting that bad. I think it's something I would have loved the benefit of, had I created or achieved anything worthwhile in magic while I was a teenager. I think a brilliant example of how the forums can be used for self promotion in a positive way is Jeff Prace. Yes he is relatively young, but very talented, and he promote's his magic frequently on the theory11 forums. It doesn't bug anyone and he gets great responses and support, he even did a charity sale recently and advertised it here. Moving on from 'Joe Teenager', I'm interested in what you have to promote, Draven. The community as a whole interests me. In fact the only self promoting I dont like are the sudo self-promotion 'me practicing the flavour-of-the-week sleight' videos.

 

[Luis Vega]

Well I thank you very much for the kind words to my personal situation, but lets examine this subject from a greater distance.

The point I'm getting at is what if Joe Teenager who is just getting out in the working world doing shows (often free or for little pay) wants to get the word out more, generate his fan base, locate his followers etc... of course we know that he should be using twitter or facebook, but what about internet forums... should he inform a community he's involved in of his activity?

As you pointed out, if you don't care to read that kind of thing, don't click the link... or is there an unwritten rule of the community that should be observed? Is this the place to post that kind of thing?

As you said, once in a while, would that be okay for Joe Teenager? Or do you think it would draw too much heat from the community if it happened too much or just a little bit?

I think is great to promote here...but to be honest...is there a use to promote gigs here? I could do it...but who would show up..I live in Mexico...so...it`s impossible for almost everyone to actually be there...it happens the same for a lot of people here...

to promote new material and tricks is great...but no more...

 

[William Draven]

That's a good point Senior Vega however what about the internet? With some events, such as McBride's Wonderground or Angel's new project, it's going to become easier and easier for people to watch (live) performances from the ease of their own computer.

If someone were to do that, or make an effort to create/ maintain/ update something like say a youtube channel what then?

 

[Luis Vega]

That's a good point Senior Vega however what about the internet? With some events, such as McBride's Wonderground or Angel's new project, it's going to become easier and easier for people to watch (live) performances from the ease of their own computer.

If someone were to do that, or make an effort to create/ maintain/ update something like say a youtube channel what then?

I agree...however...for magicians that are not as big as Jeff or Angel..there is no actual use to promote this way...I think that going out to perform in your city..then upload videos to other mediums aside of forums...like street of cards or youtube...forums are good...but are mostly used by magicians...to actually get good promotion is to find out how your material can be seen by people that could hire you...

I am doing a project called Urban Legend...so far has gotten 2 gigs in 2 hang outs...also there another method called "Hotel-crashing" taught by a friend of mine called Benji Bruce...

 

[JButterfield]

I would feel that it's a forum-by-forum thing. Each place is different, and has its own standard.

What I would do is say it almost in passing - something like "hey guys, I'll be at this place on Saturday, would love to see you there. Here's the website" would probably be received better than over the top hyperbole and obviously cut & pasted ad copy.

 

[Craig Browning]

I'd love to know where my post went to this thread

 

[William Draven]

Craig, it's still there. But it's on the Ellusionist forum. Here's the quote:

In our industry 99% of it all comes directly from us either creating press materials ourselves or hiring someone that is a pro in the marketing industry to do it for us, either way it is a MUST.

Listing up-coming dates on your web-site as well as any Newsletter you may send out is all part of NORMAL BUSINESS OPERATIONS. At the same time posting a few quotes from past clients, especially those from your more recent gigs, is likewise a powerful means of luring in new business.

People can't buy something they've never heard of. While word-of-mouth is the most important PR we can ask for, we do need to start the wheel moving in order to shift the proverbial energy to our favor. It was explained to me this way, "People love to jump onto a moving train that's heading forward. The more support they see on that train the more willing they are to trust it and take a ride on it. . ."

The Moral of the Story Is. . . the more busy you appear, the more kind and encouraging words you can post to your web site from satisfied clients, the more momentum you "train" gains; people want to take a ride because it is popular -- successful.

Your web-site should be kept clean/crisp and not filled with flash and silliness. Professional people simply want the facts in a short, concise manner so give them to them... have a few clips of past performances, feature quotes from previous clients in some eye-catching manner, and have your schedule up and CURRENT at all times; maybe even highlighting certain events that are open to the public or for charity, etc. The other thing that has become "proper" with many sites (not just magic) is pdf downloads of brochures and press kits so you may want to think about that as well.

As I mentioned, we generally end up being the one that designs all this stuff initially BUT, if and when you have the funds, HIRE A PROFESSIONAL in the marketing & public relations world to work with you in establishing a polished public image via your web site and all printed materials as well as how you look, the materials you present (theme), and so forth. This is the most important and frequently over-looked (ignored) step. In the book HUSTLE, HUSTLE Joel Bauer tells you to invest over 2/3rds of your income back into yourself and your business. If you go to business school you'll discover that most people that start a new venture do not take a salary for the first 2-5 years so as to throw every penny back into that project; it is an INVESTMENT after all and in order to fuel success you must feed the venture the substance it thrives on -- CASH!

I've drifted a bit off topic but I hope you can understand why. . . hope this helps.

 

[AndrewJ]

Luis did hit on a great point: these forums are very decentralized.

There is another point: the immediate sale versus long term branding. Craig mentions showing the world your commitment through a constant flow of new performance dates. I'll let his expertise speak for itself.

On the other hand, netiquette says to put that in your signature. Nothing currently prevents you from changing the color/bold/italics or even size of your font every time you update. There is a trade-off. You don't get your own thread to promote yourself, which in itself may be playing loose with any forum's rules. You do get the new information appended to each and every one of your posts across the forum.

Also consider that a lot of people who use their signatures can feel "lost" beneath people who openly bark for attention. Other people silently ignore the barkers and may even begin to resent the barkers.

I run a website that I would love to see gain some fan support. It has nothing to do with magic and would be worthless to name here, yet the problem remains the same. Do I go gunk up some message boards with self-promotion? Do I slip it in politely in a signature file? Do I eschew forums at all and find some other way? If so, what? I'm only bringing it up because it's a similar dilemma (a weekly fiction podcast/performance) to your performances and want for promotion.

There is no one answer. There is no magic bullet that will work for either of us. If there is, it almost certainly would not work for the other of us. We test, try different approaches, try variations of the same approaches, get feedback (good and bad) when possible, and strive to make it a growing experience.

If you want to look busy then keep a steadily updated blog at your site. Blogs, by their nature, put a permanent date on each entry. Keep your signature rotated whenever it's appropriate. Status updates where people opt-in to follow you are also generally considered acceptable -- as long as you use those accounts to act like likable human being as often as you promote yourself. Please note that I said likable. That's important.

There is one final golden rule for self-promotion on a message board: ask the people who own the board. Self-promotional threads may actually be against the rules.

 

[toolnard]

I think it depends on the context. If someone made an account on this forum solely to publicize their own gigs, I wouldn't like that too much. However, for the more respected forum members (this includes you Draven) and elites and such, I think it's fine. If someone from this board happened to be doing a show near me, I would certainly like to hear about it.

However, the goal of this board is to bring magicians together to learn and talk about all things magic. To hijack the board for the sole purpose of advertising is not keeping with the goal of the forum.

 

[Craig Browning]

Mr. Draven, thanks for the support! The two forums are very similar with lots of repetition.

When it comes to promotions there is one thing that I believe we need to note here; "Why are we trying to sell our gigs to magicians?"

The majority of magic junkies will try to ooze into any gig we do free of fee if an admission price exists. Then too, the gigs that actually pay are typically closed to a very specific "client base" by the contractor. The last point here, is marketing your gigs on a forum like this, gets you next to nowhere unless you're an established headliner. Why would anyone on a forum want to dish out the time and travel costs (especially given today's fuel prices) to go see Goffer the Great, someone they only know from one forum? After all, most of us are hundreds of miles a part form one another if not thousands e.g. a single post about appearing at a particular public event and inviting anyone that's going to be in the area during that time would be most practical and yet, a bit masturbatory at the same time.

The people that pay you AREN'T MAGICIANS by the laity. This is who you need to appeal to, reach out to and excite when it comes to your appearances. The local magic clubs can, if you give them sufficient advance notice, mention your gigs in their newsletters. If your gig is for charity/non-profit then you can usually generate TV/Radio & Print notices at no cost via the area media which will muster both, layman and magician alike.

If you are playing a gig at the local pub or casino, etc. there is another way of placing seats into the seats but it requires a great deal of time and some business management savvy to get there. Too, it is a method that works best for Mentalist while there is a version of it that can benefit the traditional mage as well, just not in as direct a manner; it is something I cover in the Psychic Technologies series and part of the Domino Principle. . .

Many in Old School Mentalism do Readings -- legit, private counseling -- it is through this we can generate a very extensive mailing list, especially when on line doing Readings as well in person. Add to this our ability to create an expanded list by way of Home PSI Parties and all persons attending (and I have a very sneaky way of getting EVERYONES name & address). What this allows me to do is via my Newsletter as well as one other more direct mode, inform these proven clients -- people I already have a relationship with -- to know about an engagement ahead of any other media notice and thus, purchase "special priced" tickets ahead of said date. By sending physical Post Cards in follow-up to the e-Newsletter I'm able to increase the odds to my favor when it comes to putting people in the room that are already "qualified" so to speak.

Any of you with more than a year's study & practice of Mentalism should be able to see other reasons as to why this would be such a huge advantage and I can assure you, I'm not the only old school working of today's era using this time proven means of making good things happen -- MENTALISTS CHEAT!

I point this out because of that other well known truth -- word-of-mouth is your most important PR tool. The ONLY WAY to generate positive word-of-mouth PR is by delivering a solid program; the kind of thing folks will walk away from feeling good, inspired and eager to talk about. . . not just for the day or two following the show but for YEARS after the fact. This places the onus on our back as the showman; if we cut corners, don't rehearse and take solid critique so as to perfect each part of the program, the word-of-mouth won't happen or will happen in a manner that hurts rather than helps and thus, we have to end up working even harder to get out of the hole our poor attitude put us in.

It's something to give serious thought towards.