What Are Some Solutions?

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I agree with you 100% Wayne. I really think that we don't take as much pride in our magic and in ourselves as we should. I mean, an effect is only as good as the performer. We all need to forfill our obligation to practice as much as we can. We need to make sure that the work we produce and show to the masses isn't the half assed garbage that some heckler would post on youtube just because he can...and no one's there to stop him.

I also agree with those who said we need to make it our responsibility to guide those dubbed as "newbies". I remember when I first started out, I had no clue how disrespectful it was to perform an effect that you didn't pay for. When you buy a DVD or a book that explains every detail on how to perform an effect it's like buying the rights to perform it and signing a contract saying "I swear never to screw this up in front of my audience."

We do need to take some form of effective action against exposure. What that is yet...I'm not sure, but I'm sure that we'll have an effective solution sometime in the future.

As of now, all we can do is practice our sets and place ourselves under a magnifying glass. We've all got what it takes, right?

Shane K.

I love the way you worded that post, good job Shane.

As for the buying the DVD's part and saying it's a contract. It's such a contract but more of a right to the perform showing your loyal. When you illegally watch things like The Trilogy your disrespecting not only the art of magic but, the performer. And some people don't realize that. I won't lie, yup I've seen pirated stuff, doesn't mean I've downloaded a whole bunch stuff. It's a simple matter of knowing right from wrong, and that big red "WARNING!" screen on DVD's should give an indication.

Being honest is a simple solution to this ever-going problem but, like I said in my previous post it won't solve it. We can only buy dvd's a practice tricks like mad and respect the art of magic and hope others catch along. Practicing I believe is the ultimate way to show your respect (as well as buying dvd's but you need the DVD to practice.) I myself practiced all the effects from E's gaff deck, for a combined 10-12 hours. Just to get it right, I can perform it great for audiences but, there's still things I always tweak. Magic is a very complex thing to perform and talk about, you need to pick your card, much like your challenge, and need to find a way to reveal the card, much like trying to find the solution.

Cheesy analogy FTW

-RA69
 
Sep 1, 2007
38
0
Hong Kong
how about actions taken in helping the public to distinguish "Novelty" and "Performing magic"?


Imagine a "novelty central"--probably your most official site for all your novelty/puzzle/trick needs.

Then wait.....someone asks for magic.

Webmaster's reply:

"what, you want to look into magic? That doesn't belong here....go T11.com for that.....

Magic is SO different from novelty entertainment....it's so much more complicated and difficult...you sure want to be a magician and not just building your own arsenal of novelties?

You should take the blue pill man...."
 
Novelty vs magic

That is a good distinction - novelty versus magic.

Most magic shops are also novelty/gag shops and when you enter the physical shop, they don't sell you magic, unless you know what your after and they take you to the back of the shop where the good stuff is on sale.

Magic shops in the web are different - anyone with a credit card can buy magic.

I remember when I was a teenager and keen to move beyond the toy shop magic box it was hard to find a place to buy professional gear. The knowledge required to perform magic was much better guarded. The internet has opened up information in many ways, including magic.

Solution: I understand that commercial thinking implies that you want to sell your gear to everybody. There is, however, also a responsibility of the people selling magic to guard our secrets. Maybe a solution is to have a front and back shop, selling the advanced stuff only to those who meet certain criteria. What is your view on this Wayne?

Peter
 

Gin

Oct 5, 2007
9
0
Europe
Hey Folks,

after reading through all the posts so far I must say that I read some really true and interesting points. Especially those who state that there is a constant lack of proper education have my support. I was preaching many years now that every magician has to really study our art. I cannot believe that there are magicians out there who never studied classics like the cups and balls or the linking rings. Instead they are asking every day for "new stuff".

But I want to stress once again that the responsibility lies within ourselfes. It is quite easy to blame the online-shops, the fools on youtube and the people who walk out and perform before they are ready.

So what can I do? I cannot stop the shop-owner selling to everybody who is willing to pay. I cannot stop the idiot posting his "explanation video" on youtube. But I can try to do the exact opposite of all these things. I can keep my secrets and resist from explaining them to everybody who asks on the internet. I can develop my own stage persona, my own style and my own presentations to show the people out there that there is more to magic than short MTV-style effects. To raise the respect for our art we have to bring magic effects far away from puzzles. Every single piece you perform has to be a carefully directed theatre play with the ultimate goal to create an emotion whithin our spectator. And I do not mean the emotion of confusion about the question how the "puzzle" is going to be solved.

Cheers,

Gin
 
Sep 1, 2007
38
0
Hong Kong
Yes....NOVELTY vs MAGIC

Exactly. This is my reason to put forth "distinction" between puzzle/novelty and magic.

-magicians today don't treat something as important for a need to "study" it.
down here in HK, many people now do have improved and start to go for the achievemnt of "magic is for bringing happiness". Bu the definition itself has a flaw, because it encourage the lack of serious to treat the study of the art, and that they should do something for "self-pleasure".


therefore, those who treat magic merely as a hobby need some education as to why they NEED to pay attention to the study of art; the way they SHOULD present magic.......

IT DOES SOUND VERY WEIRD to control what other people should/should not do...

...but I tend to belief that it is one of the inborn "obligation" to consider yourself as a magician.

IF such an idea is justified, then we can start to think of educational side of the issue.

At the same time, we should start head ourselves towards the "novelty" community to see what differences we have, then start to attract people's attention with novelty.

Because the only way to make two similar ideas separate themselves, is to make them POPULAR, then when it gets attention, everyone will see "Oh....that's something else."
 
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Sep 2, 2007
22
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In my opinion there isn't one solution to solve the problems of magic as an art. Many people get interested in magic as a phase in their life and drop it a few weeks or months later. Although every single new magician has to start somewhere these people do a lot of damage to the art. All the explanation videos or 'tricks' (which might as well be explanation since you clearly see what is really happening) on youtube reveal a lot of hard work that magicians have put into creating magical effects.

If I had to make one solution though I would shut down every single magic shop in the world. I know a lot of magicians make their income from inventing and selling great material but I sorta wish magic could be like the good old days. If someone really wanted to learn the real secrets of magic they would have to become an apprentice to a master magician. I think it's a very good system because the people who really want to learn magic would be able to learn it from a real working professional. Maybe magic shops could stay open but instead of selling effects they would have classes in which you payed to learn a certain effect from someone who really knows how to perform it well. And they could correct your mistakes in handling and presentation and a few weeks later you would leave that shop much better equipped to do magic then you would if you had learned it from a DVD.

Just my two cents.
 
Sep 1, 2007
38
0
Hong Kong
some more thoughts thrown to the problems....

Actually I think magic has gone to the point of which we really seem to see how "continuous market expansion" and Magic doesn't work out.

If we look back to all the respect and exposure problems, they all rooted from one beginning--

they either had misconceptions to the art, or that they shouldn't have been magicians at the beginning.

With more people adding into the community of "magicians",
we have more people that are likely to not take magic seriously.
we have more people that are likely to not get what the art is about.
We have more people that will get mislead with misconceptions.
We have more people leaving magic without ever really knowing what magic is actually about,

yet they THINK they know, and start INFLUENCING their friends and family with THEIR perception of magic to them. And they already quitted magic, and talk as if he has gone through everything.

Amongst the main reasons, one is for the fact that businessmen WANTS them to be part of their market.

At the end, those people became the burden of the community.

Because businessmen TELLS THEM they should consider themselves as magicians, but no one knew what obligations that need to take as a magician,
businessmen doesn't make DVDS to tell them the tough side of magic...no way...that will scare people away.

and lo and behold, these "magicians" all go ruin the image of magic as "being part of it", becasue they are having fun without the responsibility.


So by thinking why people expose magic on youtube, why people treat magic in ways that ruins magic, while actually having fun as well,

is because the market expansion is done with no responsibilty. No one gave a clear idea of what "being a magician" is really about.

Of course it would only be foolish on my part to say what I think what people should do, but I think one of the solutions is to actually start setting out clear concepts to newcomers that:

Magic is fun; but the fun comes only with responsibility.
And Responsibility isn't part of the fun.

Those who ruin the art for fun won't really give the slightest concern to respect; so we really need to consider whether they should any longer become part of the market...

If they are just doing it because of bearing misconceptions, then promotions and education come in.

that should have been part of the price when you pay for a secret, not just money. Only if businessmen can buy bread with paid obligations.
 

Bizzaro

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2007
465
7
Vegas
www.smappdooda.com
I see many good points on here. Instant gratification is indeed a problem, but there is no way to fix that as technology and human nature marches forward. We just have to adapt and restrain ourselves from taking an easy route.

Exposure doesn't hurt magic in the long run as many seem to think. Sure it sucks but it happens. Music sharing hasn't made music obsolete nor has software piracy hurt Microsoft sales. (Well not as much as they may like it to seem) Problem is we chide exposure but welcome magic shops and books in libraries. Magic has become and archetype of the world. you say magic it conjures up certain images and pre-conceived notions. No getting around that. There are certain things ingrained in people's minds due to hundreds of years of saturation and use.

The best way to help the problems in magic is to help those who are hurting people's OUTLOOK of magic. It's one of the only arts in the world where you can buy your title and skill. 20$ and a trick deck of cards later at a tourist magic shop and you too can be the next best thing on your block. You can't buy paints and be an artist, nor brushes and be a faboo artist right out of the gate.

Most magicians are stuck in the stigma of they HAVE to fool an audience. That's not necessary. People are lied to and confused on a daily basis by the world around them. What they need is to let it go for a bit. Relax, laugh, and have a good time. So instead of trying to fool people we should be finding ways to entertain them. Not just ha ha'. They can get that on TV and books. I mean a one on one human interaction entertainment. The kind of satisfaction you can only get from live theater.

To fix the problems in magic it starts with you, me, all of us. We cannot stop what has already come before and their repercussions. We can cushion the blow however. Treat what we do as an art an not just a way to kill time. Be serious about what you do and care about what you do.

Discussing it on the internet isn't the cure. The answers lies in each of us.
 
T Practice more, which brings in Waynes "Take Pride" comment. Keep effects in your bedroom until you can get them down so well that the art becomes so well done that people can't help but respect it.

This is exactly what I had trouble with. I came out way too fast, and I did not have everything down. I did ok, but I was not confident with my material, or with how I preformed. It took awhile to recognize the fact, but when I did, I have become so much more. I preformed for about half a year at school, and I felt that I did good, but there was a lacking in my magic. I felt that there was something missing. The thing that I found was missing is heart and soul of the magic. I did not have the right patter, story line, or practice to make things seem "Magical". It looked good, but it did not feel right to me. Which comes to my point, magicians need to feel that their magic is magical to them, not just for the spectator. We can fix this by taking a step backwards, and just practicing more and while practicing, ask yourself "Does my magic have a Soul? Does my magic convey the passion I have for my art? Can I do anything to make my image better?. Just by asking yourself these questions, we can all be better performers, and better magicians. I read somewhere that a magician's job is to feel good about his magic and to believe in what he does, while taking the spectator on for the ride. The Magician comes first, and the the spectator is just watching the magic come out of the magician.
I hope this helps some people to create their magic and their charisma with magic.
 
Same!

This is exactly what I had trouble with. I came out way too fast, and I did not have everything down.

Aye. Same thing with me. Whenever I learn a trick, I feel like I shouldn't practice and suddenly I'm so exited to show it to somebody. I show it to somebody, and it's not as good as I wanted.

Even if you think you're good without practicing, you're wrong. You have to grit your teeth and practice, every day, for a long time. Get a routine, pop in some lines, etc.

Build your way up with people and your tricks, and finally you can become what you wanted.

Now I have to do what I just said above. :D
 
Sep 1, 2007
410
0
Aye. Same thing with me. Whenever I learn a trick, I feel like I shouldn't practice and suddenly I'm so exited to show it to somebody. I show it to somebody, and it's not as good as I wanted.

Even if you think you're good without practicing, you're wrong. You have to grit your teeth and practice, every day, for a long time. Get a routine, pop in some lines, etc.

Build your way up with people and your tricks, and finally you can become what you wanted.

Now I have to do what I just said above. :D

darn it, you said "aye" and now every time I read your post, I read it with a Scottish accent. Or you sound like a pirate. But I'm the other way around, I practice until I go crazy.
 
A good solution to not practicing enough, is to find a demo person.


I use either my mother, sister, or girlfriend. Females tend to work better in my opinion, they just seem more into it. Anyways, what I mean is start by practicing an effect to the point of insanity and then, when you THINK you have it down (If your anything like me, when you THINK its ready, itll be another week at least) show it to your demo spectator. They will tell you if you screw up, flash, or fail miserably (I just failed indecnt miserably for my sister this morning, and I have been performing it for months. In fact I nailed it for 15 people last night) and help you fix whats wrong.

That just popped into my head. Sorry for not including it in my original post.
 

The Dark Angel

forum moderator / t11
Sep 1, 2007
2,011
14
29
Denver, Colorado
A good solution to not practicing enough, is to find a demo person.


I use either my mother, sister, or girlfriend. Females tend to work better in my opinion, they just seem more into it. Anyways, what I mean is start by practicing an effect to the point of insanity and then, when you THINK you have it down (If your anything like me, when you THINK its ready, itll be another week at least) show it to your demo spectator. They will tell you if you screw up, flash, or fail miserably (I just failed indecnt miserably for my sister this morning, and I have been performing it for months. In fact I nailed it for 15 people last night) and help you fix whats wrong.

That just popped into my head. Sorry for not including it in my original post.

Good advice.

Something that I would add:
Practice until you feel you could do the trick almost perfectly, and then practice some more. I've had people call me out on various different effect because I only practiced until I could do a manageable performance.
Which brings me to my next point:
The only thing that's near as bad as exposure is a crappy performance of a trick. I've seen Panic inadvertently revealed because people hadn't practiced it well enough, or practiced in front of the camera to understand the angles. There are many other effects that have been exposed because the person only practiced the trick once or twice and decided it was worthy to be shown to the masses.
I'm sure I"m going somewhere with this, I'll edit the post and add more later.
 

Brewery Rabbit

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
932
6
30
Poulsbo, Wa
A good tip i find..
Make sure your relaxed..

And make sure your having fun when you perform..

Because with me.. If I;m not having fun.. My crowd probably isnt getting the best reactions that i could be giving them...

So besure your relaxed, Havng fun And doing your damn best.

Also!

Dont be too anxious to perform a new effect.
Keep it in the bedroom for at least a week.
Then after practising,
Let it roam around the house.. Try it out on family members..
After that, Take it for a few walks. Show your close friends. The honost easy going people.
After that.. Set the trick free. And let it explore the and amazing the minds of our.. Poor.. Unsuspecting.. Victims..

~Jordan
 

Bizzaro

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2007
465
7
Vegas
www.smappdooda.com
Learn how to use the tools at your disposal. It is better to know 4-5 tricks REALLY well than 50 really poorly. Perform as much as you can... but only when you are confident you CAN. Pay attention to reactions. If you do not get what you want, fix it until you do. Never give up. Never surrender.
 
Sep 24, 2007
18
0
www.myspace.com
I think that Wayne is hitting the nail on the head with taking PRIDE in what we do.
what does this mean? this means that we should practice our magic until it's darn-near perfect...and then GO OUT to perform it in a meaningful way that will have the spectator not wondering how we did it...but asking for more. notice i put GO OUT in all caps. this is because I believe magic on Youtube is pretty much death. i'd almost be willing to guarantee that any one person who's visited youtube has seen at least one person doing a magic trick on it. it desensitizes our audience to what can be seen IN PERSON.

so this is my (seemingly impossible) solution: keep magic off of Youtube. if you really MUST put videos up then keep them on magic sites where the general public won't see it. TAKE PRIDE IN actually PERFORMING for people, instead of just having them watch you. and help others to understand the happiness that can be attained from actually performing.

note: i didn't say flourishing because i think flourishing is fine for youtube. it isn't something that's meant to have an effect on people. it is merely to show off. so go ahead and show off. i mean it is very fun. :)

that's all i got.
 
darn it, you said "aye" and now every time I read your post, I read it with a Scottish accent. Or you sound like a pirate. But I'm the other way around, I practice until I go crazy.

Rofl. :p

I'm only a pirate once a year, on Speak Like A Pirate Day, sorry.

--

conjure_pitch said:
A good solution to not practicing enough, is to find a demo person.

Aye. I always have trouble with that. Usually it's up to my family or friends. Usually my family is busy or at work or doesn't care about a magic trick. Or when they do, it's because they're being nice. I don't blame them; I understand.
My friends, on the other hand, want to see magic. However, they want to see the secrets. Like most people, but still, they will steal my props just to get a good look.

Thus, it can be especially hard to perform good tricks with them.

So I end up usually with little practice (see my post above) and not experienced.

Not the way to go.

But I'm changing. I'm bringing in more tricks without gimmicks or start and end clean. I'm also assigning myself ways to show the world magic. :cool:
 
Oct 6, 2007
1
0
manifesto

Written in 2001. Manifesto

Further notes exist, but I can only include what is necessary to convey my message.



*(Note to self-the change is gradual. The change is happening with more open forms of communication, however, degradation of this art continues.)


Magic as Art is failing and who is to blame but ourselves!

How can an unimaginable power given to us be lessened overtime?

The great one-handed magician, Rene Lavand has said this is a lesser art, our punishment. We have punished ourselves. Now degraded to such phrases as, "a touch of the wand," "neither here, nor there", "a sprinkle of magic dust," and "let us say abracadabra".

“And naturally came the punishment that, of course, was not the rage of god, but the boredom of the audience.” -R.L.

We must act with immediacy!

We must examine the images that have shaped our culture. Let us take the rabbit for example, a hard truth, but a truth none-the-less. Beyond Copperfield, before David Blaine one photograph stood among the rest, defining the modern magician. You remember the man who wore a tuxedo, hair slicked aside, holding a top hat against his palm and with the other hand, pulled a “rabbit” out of the hat. Is there no other image in the last century to define us? Is this who we are today?

*(Houdini images come to mind. They evoke a feeling of restraint, is he telling us something?)

And further into the rabbit hole we go.

How can we return to our holy seats where Magi's were once heralded by kings and queens?


Let us investigate the consciousness of today’s magician by appropriately educating ourselves. Study our sacred art and those before us leading back when sorcerers etched in stones tell a story of a strong mysterious craft. Soon after, we disvalue everything we learned and start from the ground up (do not trap yourself into fixed terms, nor value those before us). Our collective consciousness will re-birth itself into a brand new era, a culture with devoted secrecy.


The need to break from one another to seek new images is more urgent, now then ever (this cannot be accomplished by moving in packs). We must bring proper images that bring back "life" to the Magi. We must stop backpacking on other ideas and seek further exploration into the dream, the dream that started our conquest to be truth tellers. We must move beyond respecting this art and grasp it with the faith of a thousand men.


The demoralization of our culture due to exposure will continue unless we govern stricter laws by creating more value onto our effects without a price tag! Once understood, the artist shall move forward creating illusions of grandeur, breaking the false reality along with methods that go further than today’s technology.


Our conquest must reach for what acclaimed filmmaker Werner Herzog has coined, “ecstatic truth”, an inherent truth realized only by the artist.

*(Reference his later works, also that of P.H.- reflect on past conversation with PH.-how astonishment affects magician? Rediscover. theres something there, don’t know yet.)

And maybe then, we can renounce our positions next to the kings and queens. Until then only ignorance remains and the repetitive rhythms of a dying culture.

*(do not forget antonin a.)

“We must believe in a sense of life renewed by the theater, a sense of life in which man fearlessly makes himself master of what does not exist, and bring it into being. And everything that has not been born can still be brought to life if we are not satisfied to remain mere recording organisms” – antonin a.



I am Bunny Boy
 
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wow

I think that everyone here is all on the same page but I don't think that any one here is right I think everyone is. The idea to put magic back on stage is the best thing I have heard sense " Tornado of Fire" with David Copperfield. With all of technical advances we have made bringing magic back to its roots is the key to making people look at magic the way they use too. I love magic but I have never really felt turned on about it like I was when I saw masters of the craft perform. See a performance on TV from the Magic Castle was something I would look forward to for months.
I think that the respect will follow if we take magic to the place where it use to be. Not only that but remember that the view of magic will change if we start to change. Like what as said earlier that we see ourselves as Artist of magic. One thing i heard said on this site many times was be yourself not become this performer. Most people that perform are already out going and easy to talk to or easy to connect with. This makes getting people to appreciate what we do more because they feel like they really got to know you.
I think exposure is never going to go away until that respect factor grows stronger. I think it will always be there and I think that everyone I mean 100% of people want to know " how did you do that" and that is just, to me one of the joys of performing. So lets take magic to its roots and change the way people look at this Craft and see the joy and excitement we all see in it.
 
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