Just curious, what classifies a magician as being underground? I think Daniel Madison was considered as a underground magician in the beginning when his .pdf One came out. What are your thoughts on this?
What classifies as Underground?
- Thread starter Dayton76
- Start date
you know, I heard about this one group of magicians that are so underground card technique that it would blow anyone away that you think is considered underground! i don't know if there really is such a group but i heard you can only know about by word of mouth and you can only go if you are invited.... They meet quarterly somewhere outside Vegas. the name of the group escapes me but I did hear all this from a reliable source. he was invited in once as just a guest and he told me about it. he is in my IBM ring
i know exactly what you are talking about, but they only exist if you dont believe they do.
The way I see it, underground is a title that makes you sound cool. Take Theory11, the underground magic & cardistry epicenter. Now Theory11 isn't exactly unknown by most magicians that use the internet etc. Why is it 'underground'? Because it adds to the mystery and draws in young children that want to be street magicians but haven't made it past the tube yet. Basically, it means nothing. It is just a title. Reminds of the whole 'you are not an artist' thing.
I think of underground as an intriguing title. Nothing more, nothing less.
Personally, I think that at least for the time being, Underground Magician sounds more interesting than Magician. I like to call myself a "sleight of hand" artist before calling myself a magician. It just creates an edge that may or may not work for some performers to catch peoples' interest.
Underground is almost a magical word. It sounds mysterious. I think it's an appropriate title and descriptive term to use.
Personally, I think that at least for the time being, Underground Magician sounds more interesting than Magician. I like to call myself a "sleight of hand" artist before calling myself a magician. It just creates an edge that may or may not work for some performers to catch peoples' interest.
Underground is almost a magical word. It sounds mysterious. I think it's an appropriate title and descriptive term to use.
I believe "underground" is ,other than a cool and intriguing title,a way to describe techniques/effects/magicians that are not traditional {and even unorthodox},maybe those that keep a distance from the magic industry and perform their own effects . i hope this makes sense
maybe we should turn to a theory11 artist for enlightenment (cant spell it right)
Peace
maybe we should turn to a theory11 artist for enlightenment (cant spell it right)
Peace
Krazytim put it in a much better way than I could have...
"I hear what you guys are all saying, but you all have some huge misconceptions about what "underground" means in the sense that Theory11 is using it.
It is a philosophy, an approach, a theory, and arguably a youthfully influenced style.
I don't even know where to begin on this... Look at JB and what he has said and done. I can honestly say that Theory11 is different. It stands out WAY above any other magic site out there. In fact, I would argue that the community they have allowed us to create is nothing less than an internet-based phenomenon. I enjoy checking this site 5+ times a day in hopes of a new news post or an interesting forum topic. This isn't just a 'magic site', and I believe that was the point. There is so much more than just products here. This is how a business and a community should be run -- it's not easy to tackle both of those things, especially with such elegance.
I still laugh every time JB does or says something funny. What other CEO of a massively successful company would be cool enough to goof around like that, making this place such a positive environment.
Raiker is great, Wayne is great, Dana is great, BJ is great (although invisible on here
), Anrei is great, DM is great, DC is great, CK is great, Asher is great, Fisher is great, Tom is great, Bich is great, DW is great, Hauss is great, ....... damn it, they are all awesome, and they are providing us with the resources to make magic more incredible than I could have imagined.
At the end of the day, Underground or not, Theory11 means quality not quantity, respect for magic, and it holds a special place in me (and many of us).
Peace.
</rant>
-Tim"
"I hear what you guys are all saying, but you all have some huge misconceptions about what "underground" means in the sense that Theory11 is using it.
It is a philosophy, an approach, a theory, and arguably a youthfully influenced style.
I don't even know where to begin on this... Look at JB and what he has said and done. I can honestly say that Theory11 is different. It stands out WAY above any other magic site out there. In fact, I would argue that the community they have allowed us to create is nothing less than an internet-based phenomenon. I enjoy checking this site 5+ times a day in hopes of a new news post or an interesting forum topic. This isn't just a 'magic site', and I believe that was the point. There is so much more than just products here. This is how a business and a community should be run -- it's not easy to tackle both of those things, especially with such elegance.
I still laugh every time JB does or says something funny. What other CEO of a massively successful company would be cool enough to goof around like that, making this place such a positive environment.
Raiker is great, Wayne is great, Dana is great, BJ is great (although invisible on here
), Anrei is great, DM is great, DC is great, CK is great, Asher is great, Fisher is great, Tom is great, Bich is great, DW is great, Hauss is great, ....... damn it, they are all awesome, and they are providing us with the resources to make magic more incredible than I could have imagined.At the end of the day, Underground or not, Theory11 means quality not quantity, respect for magic, and it holds a special place in me (and many of us).
Peace.
</rant>
-Tim"
I've been into several magicians blogs and some of them actually proudly name themselves as part of The Magicians Underground, not to mention the videos here and there of magicians actually claiming to be the same thing.
Here is an example to make things clear: Lets consider Mafia gang members ( weird example, but stay with me) to be underground, what if one of them wears a T-Shirt with "I'm a Mafia Member" on it? Having something that identifies you as part of the magic underground makes as much sense as wearing a T-shirt that identifies you as a member of a Mafia.
This is not to say that there are no cliques in magic. You can form one yourself. Just get together with a couple of friends and start snubbing other magicians. But that's no way the same as an underground magic circle. Its easy to understand why most of today's magicians can't tell the difference because they weren't there back when magic was really an underground. I wasn't, but I know some who were, and had the pleasure to talk with.
Magic Underground can be defined ( as a friend puts it) as having a monopoly on a cache of exclusive magic information. The measure of that monopoly is the amount of time that elapses between when something circulates within the inner circle and when it finally reaches the masses. Darwin Ortiz ( a card magician and author ) mentioned somewhere that when Derek Dingle ( great close up magician) taught him the Staurt Gordon Double Lift, it was 15 years later that the move got published in a Darwin Ortiz book, Dingle also taught him the Altman DoubleUndercut palm ( a very good palm), and the move was published after a decade. This is not to mention that the moves were invented years ago before Dingle taught it. Another example is Fred Robinson's Center Deal has only been taught face to face to certain individuals, and to this day the move is not tipped anywhere. Today, the lead-time between private circulation and mass distribution is two or three years and shrinking.
Many might disagree with me. Romantic notions die hard, particularly in an inherently romantic field like magic. Heck, debunking the magic underground is like disproving flying saucers. To some, the very lack of evidence is proof of just how super-secret they are.
Finally, some magicians have a deep interest in perpetuating (spelling, I learned this word recently) this myth. Stay tuned for the magic underground video series, magic underground magazine, magic underground cable TV show, and magic underground decoder ring. (Of course, you won’t be allowed access to any of these super-secret things—unless you have a credit card.)
If any of you wants to let others play on your insecurities by implying that they’re part of some exclusive underground that you’re not, that, of course, is your business. If you start feeling too badly, you can always start a website or make a video that proclaims you a member of the magic underground. (Or just have a tee shirt printed up.)
--------
Another point that is particularly interesting in the newish "underground" concept. For some reason, in today's magic market, "underground magician" actually means "extremely skilled" ( thus making it a valid marketing ploy ). Hence, when you take away the "title" from the magician's name, you'll be accused of lowering down his status. Let me be more clear about this: The accusations will mostly come from younger magicians, who fall in love with the whole "underground" idea, and come to idolize the "magic underground". Take out the term "underground" from one of their idols, and you'll be met by flames, where in reality, you did not comment on that magician's skill. Reailty check: Underground or not, this factor is no way related to skill.( presentation, technique or otherwise )
Juan Temariz (Spanish card magician ) is considered a celebrity in Spain, that would take him from the newish "underground" term. I wouldn't be surprised if one magician ( I'm guessing a young cardguy) would look down on his material, because the guy isn't "hip" enough, he's not "underground" enough.
Cheers,
- Feras
- So underground that no one cares.
P.S, for all young magicians out there, I don't mean to stereotype or offend at all, I'm merely stating what I see.
P.S.S, I'm young too, I'm 21!
Here is an example to make things clear: Lets consider Mafia gang members ( weird example, but stay with me) to be underground, what if one of them wears a T-Shirt with "I'm a Mafia Member" on it? Having something that identifies you as part of the magic underground makes as much sense as wearing a T-shirt that identifies you as a member of a Mafia.
This is not to say that there are no cliques in magic. You can form one yourself. Just get together with a couple of friends and start snubbing other magicians. But that's no way the same as an underground magic circle. Its easy to understand why most of today's magicians can't tell the difference because they weren't there back when magic was really an underground. I wasn't, but I know some who were, and had the pleasure to talk with.
Magic Underground can be defined ( as a friend puts it) as having a monopoly on a cache of exclusive magic information. The measure of that monopoly is the amount of time that elapses between when something circulates within the inner circle and when it finally reaches the masses. Darwin Ortiz ( a card magician and author ) mentioned somewhere that when Derek Dingle ( great close up magician) taught him the Staurt Gordon Double Lift, it was 15 years later that the move got published in a Darwin Ortiz book, Dingle also taught him the Altman DoubleUndercut palm ( a very good palm), and the move was published after a decade. This is not to mention that the moves were invented years ago before Dingle taught it. Another example is Fred Robinson's Center Deal has only been taught face to face to certain individuals, and to this day the move is not tipped anywhere. Today, the lead-time between private circulation and mass distribution is two or three years and shrinking.
Many might disagree with me. Romantic notions die hard, particularly in an inherently romantic field like magic. Heck, debunking the magic underground is like disproving flying saucers. To some, the very lack of evidence is proof of just how super-secret they are.
Finally, some magicians have a deep interest in perpetuating (spelling, I learned this word recently) this myth. Stay tuned for the magic underground video series, magic underground magazine, magic underground cable TV show, and magic underground decoder ring. (Of course, you won’t be allowed access to any of these super-secret things—unless you have a credit card.)
If any of you wants to let others play on your insecurities by implying that they’re part of some exclusive underground that you’re not, that, of course, is your business. If you start feeling too badly, you can always start a website or make a video that proclaims you a member of the magic underground. (Or just have a tee shirt printed up.)
--------
Another point that is particularly interesting in the newish "underground" concept. For some reason, in today's magic market, "underground magician" actually means "extremely skilled" ( thus making it a valid marketing ploy ). Hence, when you take away the "title" from the magician's name, you'll be accused of lowering down his status. Let me be more clear about this: The accusations will mostly come from younger magicians, who fall in love with the whole "underground" idea, and come to idolize the "magic underground". Take out the term "underground" from one of their idols, and you'll be met by flames, where in reality, you did not comment on that magician's skill. Reailty check: Underground or not, this factor is no way related to skill.( presentation, technique or otherwise )
Juan Temariz (Spanish card magician ) is considered a celebrity in Spain, that would take him from the newish "underground" term. I wouldn't be surprised if one magician ( I'm guessing a young cardguy) would look down on his material, because the guy isn't "hip" enough, he's not "underground" enough.
Cheers,
- Feras
- So underground that no one cares.
P.S, for all young magicians out there, I don't mean to stereotype or offend at all, I'm merely stating what I see.
P.S.S, I'm young too, I'm 21!
I asked Gianni himself that question and here's what he told me ::
"it means a non commersial magician with mystery and secrets
you knw of him but not about him
magic is all u find but u dont get wot u wer looking 4
like blaine
u knw him but u dont understand him he is secret yet every 1 knws him"
"it means a non commersial magician with mystery and secrets
you knw of him but not about him
magic is all u find but u dont get wot u wer looking 4
like blaine
u knw him but u dont understand him he is secret yet every 1 knws him"
The term undergorund, when applied to magic, originally referred to a working magician, creating effects/moves/presentational hooks/etc, but who used them for his job- performance. These pieces would be circulated amongst his friends and close peers, but probably not published to the mainstream magic community. Imagine 'the indie band of magic'.
Now of course, the term has been bastardized and is now a misnomer, used only because it sounds cool, or edgy.
CL
Now of course, the term has been bastardized and is now a misnomer, used only because it sounds cool, or edgy.
CL