What do you think?
- Thread starter Morgan B
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It could be argued that the barrier is discipline, ambition and drive. Okay I may not be an awesome card handler but I have presence when I really perform.
Now I am assuming this thread is about developing a character for yourself. Now if this is what the thread is about, I highly suggest all of you should take a theatre class and actually participate in productions. The reason I say this; is for this simple reason, performing in theatre helps build confidence, and it is great practice for developing different characters for yourself.
I just got finished doing a production called carousel and I had to make 3 different characters. The way I developed the characters was simple I used a character sheet. Here is a great site which can aid in the development of a character.
http://mysterymanonfilm.blogspot.com/2007/03/character-development-sheet.html
Here is a free broadway play called Sweeney Todd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83F_OHrnhgo
watch it all 27 parts and see how different the characters are from the Movie that was just made. The point I want you to get is that these actors are given a very general character analysis the actor has to fill in the rest. Every time the are onstage they are in character.
Now I forgot who said this but i live by this quote when I do magic.
"We are not magicians, just actors performing as a magician."
The world is your cabaret, your stage.
Now I am assuming this thread is about developing a character for yourself. Now if this is what the thread is about, I highly suggest all of you should take a theatre class and actually participate in productions. The reason I say this; is for this simple reason, performing in theatre helps build confidence, and it is great practice for developing different characters for yourself.
I just got finished doing a production called carousel and I had to make 3 different characters. The way I developed the characters was simple I used a character sheet. Here is a great site which can aid in the development of a character.
http://mysterymanonfilm.blogspot.com/2007/03/character-development-sheet.html
Here is a free broadway play called Sweeney Todd http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83F_OHrnhgo
watch it all 27 parts and see how different the characters are from the Movie that was just made. The point I want you to get is that these actors are given a very general character analysis the actor has to fill in the rest. Every time the are onstage they are in character.
Now I forgot who said this but i live by this quote when I do magic.
"We are not magicians, just actors performing as a magician."
The world is your cabaret, your stage.
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Yes, but also a handful of other things. For instance:
1. Taste. Honestly, not everyone wants to pull off that type of persona, probably even including some people who could. If it doesn't call to you, you aren't going to pursue it even if you do have the discipline and ambition to pull it off.
2. Schooling. Honestly, to be done well, this persona would require a little more than your average background knowledge. To be done really well--in other words, to maintain the persona thoroughly--one would have to have a fairly deep schooling in several related disciplines (i.e., reading one book on Giordano Bruno won't cut it, because you'll need to know how he fits in with the rest of the Renaissance).
3. Income and Opportunity. These are derivative of the schooling point: some folks have a tougher time getting the level of schooling that would make this persona stand out because they have extra obstacles to getting into the schools. These don't necessarily make it impossible, but they do throw up obstacles.
The latter two, yes, can be overcome by drive and ambition, but those in turn are conditioned by the first: if it isn't something you want to do in the first place, manufacturing the drive to get it done is vastly more difficult. So I wouldn't just chalk it up to a lack of drive and ambition, though those are certainly factors.
To take a step back and focus not only on this particular persona but perhaps also some of the ramifications of the original question: yes, it would be interesting to see someone try to pull this off. But by the same token, not everyone will (or should) want to: people should be drawn to a persona that resonates with them, and this one is fairly specific. (It resonates with me to an extent--and frankly, as I've described it, I could probably pull it off, with some practice and refinement.)
That said, a boatload of people do seem to take a path of least resistance. "Street magic" and "underground" can most definitely be diluted and abused like cheap heroin. It is a valid tack to take, but, to my taste, not an interesting one for me. Is that "lazy" on their part? Perhaps so, but I don't have much invested in applying that label: their laziness doesn't really hurt me, or even affect me, so I don't feel much call to fault them for it.
On the other hand, however, exhorting someone to be a bit more original, praising originality and thoughtfulness when it does manifest, and demonstrating all of those qualities oneself go a long, long way toward making the path of least resistance less appealing. "Light a candle instead of cursing the darkness," etc.
But how to go about that?
Socrates led a slave to prove geometrical truths in order to demonstrate that even hoi polloi--"the rabble," as the Greeks would have it--can reason (Meno). He did it with skillfully framed questions and leading arguments (which, in other dialogues, admittedly, simply ticked people off). In doing so, he always portrayed himself as the dunce in need of education--after all, he was the one asking all of the questions. There are many ways to help people realize there might be a better way of doing things. This is one option, and you've also discussed others. As with the persona of the Renaissance wizard, how that occurs may ultimately be a matter of taste, style, and resonance.
A few random thoughts that obviously go astray by the time I reach the end. Sheesh, I even got back to Plato--shows you how far off track I went . . . .
William Draven - I don't really understand what it is you are trying to say here. The onlything that I can take from how you word things is that you don't approve of or like this style of performance. Pitty.
Wow - lots has gone on since I have posted this.
I was hoping one poor sap that was not well read would think this was mine and bag on me for it. It is funny how people assume the worst.
Congrats flyinggazelle for being the FIRST to identify this from EXPERT CARD TECHNIQUE'S Presentation section.
I was speaking with Mark Wilson - the man that popularized the Svengali deck and made it legendary with his routine - anyhow, he has been doing magic for 50 years and he wondered if Blaine might have read these words from this legendary text and decided to create his TV persona.
We spoke about the popularity of this performance style and how so few can really pull it off, yet so many do magic effects that only fit this style.
It is odd to see someone doing THREAD or STIGMATA - but think they are comedy magicians...and vice versa - a kid that is Goth looking doing sponge balls or triumph.
I thought this passage should be shared, as it has seemed to spark more. I will catch up and post my thoughts on your thoughts.
Wow - lots has gone on since I have posted this.
I was hoping one poor sap that was not well read would think this was mine and bag on me for it. It is funny how people assume the worst.
Congrats flyinggazelle for being the FIRST to identify this from EXPERT CARD TECHNIQUE'S Presentation section.
I was speaking with Mark Wilson - the man that popularized the Svengali deck and made it legendary with his routine - anyhow, he has been doing magic for 50 years and he wondered if Blaine might have read these words from this legendary text and decided to create his TV persona.
We spoke about the popularity of this performance style and how so few can really pull it off, yet so many do magic effects that only fit this style.
It is odd to see someone doing THREAD or STIGMATA - but think they are comedy magicians...and vice versa - a kid that is Goth looking doing sponge balls or triumph.
I thought this passage should be shared, as it has seemed to spark more. I will catch up and post my thoughts on your thoughts.
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I always present my magic as pure sleight of hand, I'm not really sure what this thread is about though. Are you suggesting a character to play during magic? A performance style?
Yeah, I read the post. Still not understanding. I think you're talking about character persona, but I'm not sure.
Ohhh, okay this is after you have developed a persona or character for yourself. Regardless I still suggest taking acting classes to help develop the base of this thread, a Character.
You can be goth and do sponge balls, just change them into different shapes or even just change the color of the sponges themselves. I have gone through a goth stage (Hello drama kid here) and was able to do triumphs and sponge balls. I won't explain the colored red balls that I found in the girls room, or why my favorite tarot deck never liked disorganization except that one card "The Tower"
I hope this is inspiring some thinking, not specifically for the people who have already posted on this thread but to those who read it.
You can be goth and do sponge balls, just change them into different shapes or even just change the color of the sponges themselves. I have gone through a goth stage (Hello drama kid here) and was able to do triumphs and sponge balls. I won't explain the colored red balls that I found in the girls room, or why my favorite tarot deck never liked disorganization except that one card "The Tower"
I hope this is inspiring some thinking, not specifically for the people who have already posted on this thread but to those who read it.
Sponge Balls can work for someone Gothic, it's all about how you introduce & use them, scripting doesn't hurt either. A Macabre or Twisted or Gothic spin can be put on almost anything if you take the proper time to develop it.
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Hmm, I would love to hear this "goth" presentation for sponge balls...or whatever shapes you use - seriously.
Some effects just don't fit - you may think they do...but then, you may not have a good grasp on the passage or what it is to develop a character.
This has been said before, and I have said it in this forum - but - as always, I will repeat:
A magician is not just judged on what he does, but what he doesn't do and why - THIS equally makes up his character.
I don't think pieces of SPONGE really fit in the theme discussed by Hugard.
No disrespect guys - but I beg you to prove me wrong. I don't disagree with TBandWIllusionist that something that may not work, can if you put proper time into it...but, I also know Eugene B puts lots of time into effects...and still chooses to not do sponges, because it doesn't fit him - please show how it would fit...
I CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS!!!
Money where the mouth is time....
Some effects just don't fit - you may think they do...but then, you may not have a good grasp on the passage or what it is to develop a character.
This has been said before, and I have said it in this forum - but - as always, I will repeat:
A magician is not just judged on what he does, but what he doesn't do and why - THIS equally makes up his character.
I don't think pieces of SPONGE really fit in the theme discussed by Hugard.
No disrespect guys - but I beg you to prove me wrong. I don't disagree with TBandWIllusionist that something that may not work, can if you put proper time into it...but, I also know Eugene B puts lots of time into effects...and still chooses to not do sponges, because it doesn't fit him - please show how it would fit...
I CAN'T WAIT FOR THIS!!!
Money where the mouth is time....
He mentioned that he stopped because he didn't like carrying around clown noses. Tho he did have a very good routine where 30 or so appear in your hand. Tho this isn't about Eugene Burger and we could go on forever mentioning this and that magician and it wouldn't get us anywhere.
I think the only way for people to find what works and what doesn't work for them is to experiment with different persona's and different effects and then take note on how the people around them reacted. Did they look confused? Did they buy it? Did they laugh because it didn't fit your style? etc etc. All this stuff is going to take a lot of pilot miles as Penn would say.
Simply put, agreed.
No worries, all in good discussion.
In reference to Eugene, and in your own words, it doesn't fit him. The subject matter does not boil down to one person alone though. He puts lots of time into his effects, and he should. But if you simply don't want to use sponge balls, they're not "Magician Mandatory Material". If you however, would like to take them and try to turn them into something more than just silly balls of sponge, run at it full force. Hell, with the right idea, you could present two sponge balls as reckless lovers (I'm rolling with that idea in my head right now for some reason, I think I might write something up for this.). But to put myself back on track. Like I said, it would take time to develop something really good, but i'll try and draw something off the top of my head. Now i've never used them or practiced them, but I do atleast have the basic knowledge. All I can really think of at this moment is something to open with:
"You've seen the depictions in culture, throughout history. A little gleam of light on your shoulder (looks to left shoulder), it tries to influence you to do what's right. But for everything positive (slowly looks to right shoulder), there must be something negitive,(at this point you look at someone, directly, and let it linger for a moment before you continue.) to create a balance. For demonstration purposes I shall distinguish my own balance of Good & Evil and pluck them from my shoulders apon which they sit."
(Keep in mind, with what i've just written, it's got a lot to do with how you say it aswell. For example, if you have a thick Irish accent and you're saying it in a happy way, this might come off stranger than intended.)
Now at this point the production would come from the shoulders. One White Ball from the left (Good) & One Red Ball from the right (Evil). In order to sell the idea that some kind of light is being extinguished, I imagine using something along the lines of this during the production:
http://www.ellusionist.com/product/accessories/additional+-+other/ultra+smoke+2000.do
This is just off the top of my head so it's nothing that i've put a lot of thought into. Meaning this opening part alone would need a lot more work. In order for something like this to go over good (Not necessarily what I wrote up top, but anything in referance to the first post), it needs to be presented to an audience that's looking for something more than just a quick magic trick. The magic doesn't always happen in the hands, it happens in the spectators mindset. If they believe they're seening a trick, they're seeing a trick.
And on that consideration, I would like to once again offer to introduce everyone to two young men of my own creation. I think it could bring something interesting to the table.
Hah! Well played. It didn't sound like your typical writing style, but I chalked that up to trying to make the specific point rather than paraphrasing a specific source. Nicely done.
Thanks Lex.
B&WIllusionist - I am torn on this one, as I know presentation does make it stronger...but the props are on different to the audience and can give a mixed message. You are talking about a serious presentation with sponges....it's like trying to do a strong presentation around thimbles. It could play - but really...they are still pieces of sponge.
I think it is important to understand how props, by themselves - effect audiences and their thoughts. As the prop itself gives a message.
Think of it on another level - what message does a beat up deck of cards have...in a old dirty box versus a prestine deck of cards just opened for them. Two different characters may have success with each.
I only brought up EB and his hate for sponges because if that guy can't find a meaningful presentation that gives them reason...I wonder if it can be done for the type of magician discussed in the passage.
B&WIllusionist - I am torn on this one, as I know presentation does make it stronger...but the props are on different to the audience and can give a mixed message. You are talking about a serious presentation with sponges....it's like trying to do a strong presentation around thimbles. It could play - but really...they are still pieces of sponge.
I think it is important to understand how props, by themselves - effect audiences and their thoughts. As the prop itself gives a message.
Think of it on another level - what message does a beat up deck of cards have...in a old dirty box versus a prestine deck of cards just opened for them. Two different characters may have success with each.
I only brought up EB and his hate for sponges because if that guy can't find a meaningful presentation that gives them reason...I wonder if it can be done for the type of magician discussed in the passage.
Kenton Knepper described in Mystery by Association an interesting presentation involving producing small oranges from a tree that had none, turning them into orange sponge balls, and going from there.
And someone could argue that a deck of playing cards is just a deck of playing cards. Sponges are Sponges & Cards are Cards, but as magicians it's our job to make them more. Playing Cards, Sponge Balls, Steel Rings, Rope, and anything that we use are absolutely nothing untill we use them. Everyone either in the back of their minds or sometime after they've thought about it knows, that if I put a card in the middle of a deck and it comes back to the top, I didn't really put their card in the middle of the deck. But again, our job is to make them believe that that's exactly what happened. If I were to attempt what I outlined in my last post, my job would be to make them believe that what I just did was pull my conscience from my shoulder and manifest it as a sponge ball. If I can make them believe that, even a little, while they're watching me perform, then i've done what i've set out to do.
I still believe that that old dirty deck could be used with the right presentation. Granted, maybe not for a whole performance however.
"As you can see, this deck is quite old. It's dirty, it's been beaten up over the years. Some of the cards are even sticking together, but i've had this deck for ages and I love using it. Yet, in the condition it's currently in, it's rather difficult to perform with (False shuffle the cards). If you would clearly note the top card is the 8 Of Diamonds & the bottom card is the 4 Of Clubs. Someone name a number between 1 & 52 (someone says 12) Please note the 12th card down is The Jack Of Spades. It was an absolutely beautiful deck when I first got it. It was crisp, (deck switch, if it's a deck of red backed bikes, then to a new deck of red backed bikes. This deck must be in the same "random" order as the other one) the cards would just (spread the cards in your hands) glide off one another. Incase you don't believe that this is indeed the same deck you just saw, (flip over the top card) 8 Of Diamonds (the bottom card) 4 Of Clubs (count twelve cards down, outloud) The Jack Of Spades."
That's just a thought I had when I read what you said. Even with what I just said, I still agree with you to some degree. I'm just running out of time to explain myself.
But that's still just one mind out of 6 billion+. Atleast that's how I see it.
I think you are missing my point - what I am saying is props do send a message.
If you think that your audiences views a dirty deck, and a new deck the same way - then that is really short sighted. It is the equal to saying - it doesn't matter what you wear - it is the person that makes the man....
I thought it went - clothes make the man. You see - maybe not in your world, but in mine, people will judge you on your appearance, first, then who you are second. When you see a guy dressed in baggy pants, fubu shirt, hair in braids, with a chain and walks with a limp...what kind of music do think he listens to?
Rap - hip hop maybe - you are not always right, but often image represents who you are.
Props are a way of creating an image - READ STRONG MAGIC and DESIGNING MIRACLES for more understanding on this.
You see - you can say ALL you want with your stories....but at the end of the day - sponges are pieces of sponge...cards are cards....your stories to many - are JUST stories if your props don't match your character and image.
It is like Hells Angel biker owning a pink poodle...if it happens, it is the irony - because most times - what kind of dog do they own?
I never said that the dirty deck CAN'T be used - I am trying to get you to see how PROPS play a LARGE part in image...regardless of what you say.
If you don't - I would love to see you pull off a kids show with a sponge ding dong prop and then tell the parents props don't matter....but what you say!
Lastly - come on BandWI - first - there aren't 6 billion magicians - and second - EB is the type of magician you seem to follow steps in...with story telling and magic filled with plots. He may be considered one of the best magicians alive - after all - he does run a school with McBride on giving your magic more meaning...but, I can't speak for him and his reasons - I just find it interesting that he doesn't do them - and I know many "names" that don't.
Regardless, my main point is that certain props just don't fit character - regardless of what your personal beliefs are...because my "lay person" mind says that your prop has me thinking of who you are before you open your mouth. First impressions speak loud...and if I see clown noses in your hand and then hear your story...and the end, I think, "man, my kids would love that trick with clown noses"....or..."this guy takes sponges WAY to seriously".
I once heard a magician personify cards - because - hey, they are just cards until we make them more - people always laughed, until he realized...they were laughint AT him, not with him.
Personally, I prefer them to laugh with me - but you have your opinion.
It is odd you are arguing so hard that sponges have a place in the man who wants to be considered in touch with the devil...as the quote you quoted me on says the EXACT opposite about cards.
During that day ONLY DUNNIGER could get away with it....so you think you are DUNNIGER...but with sponge balls?
Cool - I guess.
If you think that your audiences views a dirty deck, and a new deck the same way - then that is really short sighted. It is the equal to saying - it doesn't matter what you wear - it is the person that makes the man....
I thought it went - clothes make the man. You see - maybe not in your world, but in mine, people will judge you on your appearance, first, then who you are second. When you see a guy dressed in baggy pants, fubu shirt, hair in braids, with a chain and walks with a limp...what kind of music do think he listens to?
Rap - hip hop maybe - you are not always right, but often image represents who you are.
Props are a way of creating an image - READ STRONG MAGIC and DESIGNING MIRACLES for more understanding on this.
You see - you can say ALL you want with your stories....but at the end of the day - sponges are pieces of sponge...cards are cards....your stories to many - are JUST stories if your props don't match your character and image.
It is like Hells Angel biker owning a pink poodle...if it happens, it is the irony - because most times - what kind of dog do they own?
I never said that the dirty deck CAN'T be used - I am trying to get you to see how PROPS play a LARGE part in image...regardless of what you say.
If you don't - I would love to see you pull off a kids show with a sponge ding dong prop and then tell the parents props don't matter....but what you say!
Lastly - come on BandWI - first - there aren't 6 billion magicians - and second - EB is the type of magician you seem to follow steps in...with story telling and magic filled with plots. He may be considered one of the best magicians alive - after all - he does run a school with McBride on giving your magic more meaning...but, I can't speak for him and his reasons - I just find it interesting that he doesn't do them - and I know many "names" that don't.
Regardless, my main point is that certain props just don't fit character - regardless of what your personal beliefs are...because my "lay person" mind says that your prop has me thinking of who you are before you open your mouth. First impressions speak loud...and if I see clown noses in your hand and then hear your story...and the end, I think, "man, my kids would love that trick with clown noses"....or..."this guy takes sponges WAY to seriously".
I once heard a magician personify cards - because - hey, they are just cards until we make them more - people always laughed, until he realized...they were laughint AT him, not with him.
Personally, I prefer them to laugh with me - but you have your opinion.
It is odd you are arguing so hard that sponges have a place in the man who wants to be considered in touch with the devil...as the quote you quoted me on says the EXACT opposite about cards.
During that day ONLY DUNNIGER could get away with it....so you think you are DUNNIGER...but with sponge balls?
Cool - I guess.