YouTube Rant (Moderator Note: Strong Language)

Magic is extremely popular and is not in short supply of new recruits. It's or job to better ourselves and further our knowledge in our individual pursuits as well as helping out others.

It's not our job to dumb magic down and make it more accessible. Similar to how Freemasons aren't going to make it so that EVERYONE can join.

Spot on mate! Well said.

Rev
 
  • Like
Reactions: Brett Hurley
Sep 13, 2014
52
34
Didn't watch the video. As far as piracy goes let's not pretend magic is the only thing pirated. I live in SE Asia and piracy isn't seen as lacking ethics. Plagiarism isn't seen as a big deal either. So the ethical argument falls flat to those here.

The exposure doesn't bug me as there are 7 billion people on Earth. Most don't understand English. So how many people as a percentage has been tipped to the methods of the exposure video?
 
Didn't watch the video. As far as piracy goes let's not pretend magic is the only thing pirated. I live in SE Asia and piracy isn't seen as lacking ethics. Plagiarism isn't seen as a big deal either. So the ethical argument falls flat to those here.

The exposure doesn't bug me as there are 7 billion people on Earth. Most don't understand English. So how many people as a percentage has been tipped to the methods of the exposure video?

It's okay. Not everyone has a good sense of ethics. We get that. This is why we educate on to what those kinds of ethics should be and kick to the curb anyone who doesn't want to play along.

Sure it may not be a big deal for some, but those that are okay with it seem to be in the minority. I will say this though Johnny. Making it public that you don't care about exposure will limit your opportunities as magicians may be less inclined to share anything with you.
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,961
1,096
Utah
In his video, Ramsay seems to be embracing a mentality that we need to abandon the respect of the art.
He states that 'no one has time to go to a library' anymore and 'everything is moving so fast'. Put things up on YouTube because...people are lazy?

I go to the library once or twice a week. I'm a library fanatic. I'm not sure why people act like libraries are going out of fashion. Most f them are still pretty busy in my area.
 
Sep 13, 2014
52
34
It's okay. Not everyone has a good sense of ethics. We get that. This is why we educate on to what those kinds of ethics should be and kick to the curb anyone who doesn't want to play along.

Sure it may not be a big deal for some, but those that are okay with it seem to be in the minority. I will say this though Johnny. Making it public that you don't care about exposure will limit your opportunities as magicians may be less inclined to share anything with you.

I respectfully disagree. Also, using the appeal to popularity fallacy isn't a valid point.

I just don't think magic exposure is as big of a deal as people make it out to be.
 

RealityOne

Moderator
Nov 1, 2009
3,577
3,848
New Jersey
I respectfully disagree. Also, using the appeal to popularity fallacy isn't a valid point.

I just don't think magic exposure is as big of a deal as people make it out to be.

What William is saying is that the magic community sees ethics as something that is important. Look at the posts in this thread and you will see that EVERY experienced magician who is involved with the magic community (i.e. knows, hangs out with and works with other magicians) has said the same thing about the ethics of exposure. It is not about popularity, but about the norms and expectations of a group - that is the definition of ethics.

William is spot on about how any perceived lack of ethics can hurt a career. Over the weekend, I shared the ideas and handling of a routine that I developed with another magician on this forum. Nothing earth shattering in the methods, but a surefire routine using methods that are disguised by the context of the routine. Would I share that routine with you... no because you don't think that keeping magic a secret is as important as Youtube views.

Magic exposure is not a big deal in that most of what is exposed is easily avoided or disguised. I explained that in my earlier post. But the idea of exposure is that someone is trading a secret they didn't develop for online popularity. For published effects, it hurts the creators and the performers who buy those effects.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,740
2,854
To play Devil's Advocate - Is it possible that Ramsay's video is being misunderstood here?

What he's saying is that exposure is going to happen. And, given that it's probably existed as long as magic has, and also given that even top pros have used exposure to their advantage in a variety of ways, it's probably going to continue to exist as long as magic does.

So working from the idea that there will always be exposure, is it necessarily unethical to provide quality tutorials to teach newbies the foundations properly? Assuming that the tutorials fit the criteria of:

1) Original material
2) Public domain
3) Foundation moves already widely available (but taught more effectively)

Instead of viewing it nothing more than grasping for views and subscribers, it could also be seen as a genuine attempt to welcome new magicians and improve the quality of the performances we see from them, while guiding them to the proper resources (Books and videos and such) to learn magic correctly and build the community.

In general, at least in my experience (and the experience of several I have talked to) the magic community is not super welcoming to new magicians, particularly if that new magician isn't immediately conforming to what whichever magician they are speaking thinks magicians should be doing. When I started, people would tell me I had to learn all types of magic - rubber bands, cups and balls, linking rings, silks, so on. These things didn't interest me, so I felt like I couldn't be a magician since I didn't want to do those things. Then I just decided to do whatever I wanted and now I'm a professional in the magic world. I could have been where I am now way sooner if I had guidance that was a lot more welcoming and, well, guiding to things I wanted to be guided to.
 
Jan 14, 2017
159
149
So working from the idea that there will always be exposure, is it necessarily unethical to provide quality tutorials to teach newbies the foundations properly? Assuming that the tutorials fit the criteria of:

1) Original material
2) Public domain
3) Foundation moves already widely available (but taught more effectively)

Very good point. I do not disagree with that at all.

My issue with the videos (and not Chris Ramsay himself) is that his videos [recently] have degraded to abusive, profanity-laced denigration of others' material online.
And that was the original point in this thread; it led us - as all good discussion should - to other thoughts and ideas about the presentation of Magic 'secrets' to the greater masses.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CWhite

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,740
2,854
True. I am not thrilled about the "watching bad magic" stuff he's been doing. That seems like fan service to me. Though he did promise a "Watching Ramsay's bad magic" video so at least he may dish it on himself, too.
 

Brett Hurley

Elite Member
Sep 27, 2014
2,396
1,991
Texa$, with a dollar sign
So working from the idea that there will always be exposure, is it necessarily unethical to provide quality tutorials to teach newbies the foundations properly? Assuming that the tutorials fit the criteria of:

1) Original material
2) Public domain
3) Foundation moves already widely available (but taught more effectively)


If it was just pros doing either their own material or common basics, I'd be relatively ok with it. I mean, you can go to a library and check out a magic book for free, and those books are written by someone who is in the know. So it's fine.

But the reality is that YouTube is an open platform. A scary open platform. ANYONE can make a video about anything. And I think it has put a black eye on the magic community to a degree.
It would be like if ALL the YouTube exposure makers did the same thing to the 'library platform' and just created books after books of bad magic tutorials.

But books are harder to make and have an entire process. Johnny Chuckwagon won't release a book explaining ONE sleight because it's too time consuming. And NO publisher would get onboard a 6 page book...booklet...thing.

It's far too easy to make a video. And it's way easier for a beginner to take said bad tutorial and take it as gospel. There will never be regulation for it on YouTube and we end up having to dissuade them from YouTube and head towards more appropriate resources.

So In general, at least in my experience (and the experience of several I have talked to) the magic community is not super welcoming to new magicians, particularly if that new magician isn't immediately conforming to what whichever magician they are speaking thinks magicians should be doing.

Maybe I just got really lucky, but when I first started, the first bits of advice I got was from you and David. And it was quite a push in the right direction, I think.

Between here and Ellusionist, I haven't seen any unwelcoming behavior to the rookies. I think there's a bit of kickback when it comes to offering advice to rookies (get books, avoid YouTube). Primarily because of the idea that 'why pay for it when YouTube has stuff for free?'
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,740
2,854
ut books are harder to make and have an entire process. Johnny Chuckwagon won't release a book explaining ONE sleight because it's too time consuming. And NO publisher would get onboard a 6 page book...booklet...thing.

Publishing a book is sadly easy these days. In general I think a major problem with the magic world today is that there is not enough of a filter on how to publish material in any way. Anyone can put something on YouTube or Vimeo. Anyone can type up an eBook. Anyone can put a book on Lulu print on demand. There is literally nothing stopping anyone with the equipment from publishing anything.

The only filter or gateway is getting people to buy it. I could hammer out a 6 page booklet and have it ready to purchase on Lulu by midnight tonight. Could I get people to buy it? Survey says: Not really. I'd probably sell one or two to the folks who knows me well and are generally up for anything I'm willing to sell, assuming the price is right. Guideline: $.50 per page.

I realize that "unwelcome" isn't the right word. Perhaps, "closed off" or even "bored with answering basic questions" would be more accurate. It's very easy for someone who's on forums to get tired of answering the same question over and over. It starts out with bibliographies and footnotes and invites to contact them for help, and then turns into "Read this book, good luck!" And that's the helpful ones. Then, particularly in places like the Cafe, you get arguments over whether David Blaine is any good, whether the trick is any good, why anyone would bother performing that version when this version exists, so on, so forth.

The tendency for knowledgeable magicians to want to steer people to the "correct" sources right away can come off as a barrier. Sometimes it actually is a barrier. When someone just wants to learn a couple card tricks and they're told they have to study (study!) these resources and they'll be ready in two years, they're going to say, "Forget that, I just want to entertain my friends over a pint at the pub, I'll learn it on YouTube. Good enough." So for those people, I think having proper tutorials on the basics, on the old stuff, could be a valuable thing. Then they can be taught that you can do this causally and that's OK, and if you want to get more serious here are some resources.
 
Sep 13, 2014
52
34
What William is saying is that the magic community sees ethics as something that is important. Look at the posts in this thread and you will see that EVERY experienced magician who is involved with the magic community (i.e. knows, hangs out with and works with other magicians) has said the same thing about the ethics of exposure. It is not about popularity, but about the norms and expectations of a group - that is the definition of ethics.

William is spot on about how any perceived lack of ethics can hurt a career. Over the weekend, I shared the ideas and handling of a routine that I developed with another magician on this forum. Nothing earth shattering in the methods, but a surefire routine using methods that are disguised by the context of the routine. Would I share that routine with you... no because you don't think that keeping magic a secret is as important as Youtube views.

Magic exposure is not a big deal in that most of what is exposed is easily avoided or disguised. I explained that in my earlier post. But the idea of exposure is that someone is trading a secret they didn't develop for online popularity. For published effects, it hurts the creators and the performers who buy those effects.

I respect your opinion and it has merit. I just don't agree. How many on here have ever listened to a song or watched a clip or video on YouTube not from the official channel?

I don't think exposure hurts creators as was that person who watched that exposure honestly going to purchase that trick? I've stated on here if I created a great effect I'd give it away for free. I don't believe in charging others but have no qualms with those who do.

The ethics argument falls flat as magicians aren't a model of ethics. Hell, a certain magic forum is a cesspool of bitter, grouchy, mean spirited people. I refuse to name names but I've met a lot of jackass magicians as well.

Also, in regard to bad magic, I'd argue a lot of tricks for sale are bad magic. Anyone can be a creator which is good but also as it is with the app industry there is a lot of shovelware out there too.

I guess my point here is my views on exposure is meh, not a big enough deal to make it a issue. I'm more concerned about having bad magic for sale and ad copies that are unethical.
 
Searching...
{[{ searchResultsCount }]} Results