Where's the entertainment?

[cbols23]

Well that's the thing, isn't it? Who are you trying to appeal to and why?

Does anyone here know who the hell their audience is? I see a lot of theories getting thrown around, but unlike with a lot of magicians I've known, not many cardistry specialists seem to know who it is exactly they want to perform for.

Hmm, now I see, well I don't do flourishes for laymen, but I could imagine that someone who does, may focus on cheering people up with something out of the ordinary, or focus on doing something different for other people. I do now though that a majority of flourishers on DN, dnd, t11, ect. don't perform for laymen, but they do it for fun.

But I guess "Who the hell their audience is" would depend on mostly the performer.

 

[Steerpike]

But I guess "Who the hell their audience is" would depend on mostly the performer.

That rather the point isn't it?

Here's the thing though. The trend among cardistry to not perform for the laity makes the efforts of advancing the art a little more of an uphill battle. And it's not like it can't be done.

Jeff McBride has a classic manipulation routine that he teaches on The Art of Card Manipulation volume 1. He developed it over a long period of working in hard rock bars. He knew the conditions he'd be performing under, and he knew the audience. He developed the routine from there like any magician would.

 

[FadedTemp]

What I'm arguing is how does one make it entertaining? How do you make it worth my while?

Simple, I don't.

I do flourishes for myself, I love being able to manipulate the cards in such an different fashion then what most people would see. I do not perform for laymen but I have used flourishes as a way to draw attention and bring in a crowd. They are attracted by it because it looks wonderful (if proper practice is given) and is something they more then likely haven't seen done with a deck of cards before.

If I perform The Werm, I immediately have their attention and they want to see more.

However; it's difficult to say how one makes XCM entertaining to a spectator. We'll have to ask De'vo what he thinks will do the job.

 

[dragon521]

An interesting thought, but that begs the question if that is the only way. Is it? Why or why not?

I would say there is never only one way to do something. I guess if you were REALLY creative you could tell a story with the cards on stage almost like a play. Or you could have a cirque du soleil type thing on stage with multiple people manipulating while bending over backwards on top of each other with flashing lights and whatever else. Throwing cards to each other while in mid-air on the trapeze etc.

 

[Katastrik]

Had something posted but I think this is too much for my intelligence.

Let's try though

"What I'm arguing is how does one make it entertaining?" I think it would be entertaining already just because it is satisfying to watch.

Not to get on to the masturbation stuff.

But what about porn, it is entertaining only because it is satisfying to watch. Same with Flourishing maybe?

 

[Da_Shine]

Its entertaining just because it is. Again, maybe to some people..not to everyone. Its entertaining because it looks impossible and beautiful. The masturbation thing makes sense but only applies to the people that do flourishing by themselves for themselves. Make sense?

It'll never be like magic. It doesn't evolve the audience and your not gonna walk up to someone and ask "Do you wanna see some flourishing?" BUT I bet you if you just started flourishing on the street people would watch. But the thing is they won't last for long, because there a limit to the amount people want to see. For example if your watching bmx. There is a limit to how many cool 360's and flips you'll wanna see. You know what I mean? It gets old. The same stuff (not exactly) over and over again. IT gets the same and people stop saying "ohh cool."

And The reason is why us (flourishers) love watching performance vids all the time is because we have a better understanding and appreciation of the art, and we understand how difficult it is (also because it looks impossible and beautiful)

I got into flourishing because I thought it looked awsome! Anyone else?

 

[FadedTemp]

I also got into it because of the incredible way it looks. It's true, you can't truly appreciate it until you try it yourself. I love watching flourish videos even if I have seen the same move 2345234 times.

 

[palmer]

Its a hobby, its supposed to be entertaining to YOU.

Just like any other hobby it will always be more entertaining to those who share the same passion.

If nobody else is entertained by it, who really gives a crap? Do it for yourself.

 

[Toby]

Since word masturbation has been used alot in this thread, i would like to ask:
How would you make masturbation more interesting for audience to watch, and more apiling (sp.) to other people? (that was a joke off course...)

But for exapmle, since you mentioned parkour... Can you answer me the same question that you asked, but in refference to parkour? I'm also a tracour, just for the record...

 

[trashmanf]

LOL toby I dont want to know the answer to your first question.

for the original poster... stop being terrible at flourishes and it'll be entertaining. if you suck nobody is gonna get much interested except other people in the hobby.

 

[Steerpike]

for the original poster... stop being terrible at flourishes

And there's the death knell on any hope of intelligent discourse in this thread. This quite easily wins for being the post to have missed the point more magnificently than anybody else.

Apparently I'm asking these questions to the wrong people. You're all only thinking of yourselves and why you like flourishing. Not trying to figure out why anyone else does or why they would. And you project that onto me.

I'm sorry I wasted your time, gentlemen. Carry on

 

[trashmanf]

I mean very literally, stop sucking, and your flourishes will be more entertaining. You said in your OP that the problem stems from "Most videos you find now of young performers are one move or a short routine at best, and are usually shot on a web cam pointed at crotch level."

uhhh... what do expect from theory11, that it would be the underground cardistry epicenter? *cough*

if you're basing your whole argument on n00bs that suck, then of course its not going to be as entertaining to laymen. Go check out some good vids (Superhandz, decknique, etc) and then you'll see how intelligent it was to start this thread, maybe you could start the next thread "Why do some chicks look hot but I think other ones are ugly?" or "I don't eat meat, so why are BBQ restaurants still in business?"

 

[Steerpike]

Go check out some good vids (Superhandz, decknique, etc) and then you'll see how intelligent it was to start this thread,

Right, because trying to get people to think is for fags, apparently.

I stand by my previous statement. I asked this in a place where nobody gives two sh*ts, and it wasn't so much stupidity as arrogance on my part to think that I could snap even one person out of this torpor.

Besides you still missed my point. You think I was talking about just the people that suck? Why do I even bother?

 

[Toby]

You cant make it more entertaining to people, because you cant involve them (yet...). I was at this pub, and doing some magic, and then i sit in the corner, to relax a bit, and start doing flourishes for myself. And this two girls was sitting opposite of me, and one of them said: "Wow, i like those "mixing" of cards, more than tricks..." (just to be clear, i didnt show her any magic by that point, she ment card tricks in general)...

So i guess, you cant make it more appealing, because you cant involve them personaly. One of the ideas is to present them as a part of a gambling routine, because if you flourish in the middle of a magic routine, it will kill the magic, but showing off your skill is kind of a point in gambling routine... And off course, people will love flourishes more if they are fluid and beautifull, so maybe another way to make it more entertaining is to get really good at them, because there is no patter (yet...). And off course, you can be as good as Buck's and De'Vo combined, it will start to get boring after 3 minutes, even with good music, so that part is inevitable (yet...).

Hope this kinda step on your question. I would really love to discuss this in a normal and understanding way...

 

[trashmanf]

Handlordz forums has oodles of tips on how to involve audiences. Again, these OP-releated arguments are based on the usual theory11-year-olds ignorance of most of the material out there. For example in the cradle-2-grave forumz de'vo teaches you different ways to involve spectators, like balancing a birdy fan on their hand etc. One fun thing you could've done Toby, is try to teach the girl a simple flourish like a fan or a charlier cut. then they go "wow thats hard" and now you can say , "think that's hard? try ________" and do a king cobra.

 

[Guitarkid2023]

Steerpike is right to a point. Trashmanf is as well. Look at it from a spectators point of view. Think back to when you first saw good flourishing.

I'll start with trashman's statement.

The first things you saw that got you into flourishing were videos from De'vo, Jerry Cestkowski, Dan and Dave, or Daniel Madison (Or any other very good flourishers. You're mind was blown when you saw these videos and you wanted to do the same thing. I know this because of the reactions I've seen from people who I've shown Portable Playground or De'vo videos.

Now, imagine if you never saw these videos. I come up to you one day and say 'hey look how awesome this is' and it's some fanboy who finally learned Pandora without dropping the cards and it takes him 3 minutes to complete the cut. (aka noob crotch shot video. You'd be like 'what the hell is this?' That's how it is in real life. If you work really hard and become very good at your flourishes, then you will impress people.

I'll move on to Steerpike.

I use flourishing for myself mostly. However recently I've found that flourishing is an amazing ice breaker. I have gotten fairly decent at flourishing by now. It works a lot better for me that the old 'hey want to see a trick' and then go into my routine. With card flourishes people come to you. If I'm sitting somewhere doing flourishes and people see you, they want to see something. Now I's like to say I've never gone up to someone on the street and done a flourish for them. That's not how it should be done. I don't always use them either. But if I'm sitting casually with a bunch of people I don't know then I will just sit back and then watch people stare. They are extremely visually appealing when executed right.

Like I said, It gives me a good sense of accomplishment as a hobby, and a great ice breaker. I also show off every once and a while .

I'd like to add one more thing. I don't konw if Steerpike was trying to get at this, but I think he was.

He says 'why should it entertain me?' I think the real question is this. How can we make this wonderful art more entertaining to a laymen? How can we incorporate this into our magic, or even a show completely about flourishing. A juggling act as mentioned before. I think that Jeff McBride has found something good. His shows consist of a lot of flourishing and he's great. But most people use it as a way to show off skills they don't have. I know that's harsh but that's the reality of this media section and youtube. Don't get me wrong, there are some real entertainment jems that pop up here and there. But it's gotten crowded with people showing off how they've learned the new Dan and Dave flourish and want to be cool. I have never posted a video here because of the fact that I don not believe my flourishing is up to par with these 5 star videos. Videos that are not amazing should not be posted due to the reasons I stated earlier.

I'll leave it at that. I'm sure more will come to me later.

peace

-Kevin

 

[Isaac Kane]

typically when i XCM i do cuts that blow peoples mind... this is the entertainment... being able to manipulate a deck in a way that few people can is amazing...and you can do some cuts and fans that incorperate the audience...

 

[Steerpike]

and you can do some cuts and fans that incorperate the audience...

Notice how this is tagged on almost as an afterthought.

"Yeah, I want to show them how much better I am than everybody else! Am I blowing your mind?! And, oh yeah, I guess I could talk to them if I really had to."

 

[Flyspazz]

Not bad...4 pages and nobody has really addressed the questions.



Oh, and before everyone starts in on me for not addressing them, let me just say that while the issues can be addressed from a non flourisher(me) I think you have to look from the mind of flourisher for an answer because non flourishers and laymen while appreciative of the skill level involved dont seem to be to overjoyed about watching for more than 5 minutes.

 

[praetoritevong]

For the people I flourish for, which is still fairly few considering I'm not particularly good, but the few I do flourish around, entertainment in flourishing stems from watching impressive feats of dexterity and skill. In it's own way, flourishing is beautiful and I think it's enjoyment from the audience's perspective occurs in the same but more focused manner as the enjoyment of gymnastics. It's entertaining because it's showy, beautiful, interesting, skillful and an art - at least when performed correctly. It's engaging because it's special and different and unique.

I do not think it matters that this entertainment usually lasts only for a short time - a short time is all that it requires, and I get "do that again!" for my flourishing as much as I do for my magic.