Where's the entertainment?

[Steerpike]

Cardistry, as much as I hate to state the obvious, is a very hot issue right now. Whether you call it as such, or label it flourishing or XCM, the manipulation of cards is growing in popularity among a new generation of performers and stories are going around of audiences who are learning about and coming to appreciate it.

But what's entertaining about it? On the surface, it would seem to have the key problem of a lack of audience involvement. Most videos you find now of young performers are one move or a short routine at best, and are usually shot on a web cam pointed at crotch level.

Let's suppose I'm a guy walking by and I see someone doing fancy stuff with a deck of cards. How is this entertaining to me? What do I get out of it? What do you get out of it?

How do you make this art, which on the surface looks like little more than masturbation into something entertaining?

 

[Eddie]

Same thing goes for skateboarding, penspinning, bmx, etc.

It just is...

 

[Steerpike]

That's not an answer.

 

[4757joshua2]

Let's suppose I'm a guy walking by and I see someone doing fancy stuff with a deck of cards. How is this entertaining to me?

It's fun to watch.

What do I get out of it?

You get to have fun watching.

What do you get out of it?

Depends.

(Too short)

 

[cbols23]

I don't really know, some people do it for themselves, they enjoy it, they don't do it to please laymen, they do it for themselves.

Maybe Laymen like to see it because it is something different, something they can't do.

As Eddie said, what's so different than skatboarding, or bmx, people sometimes like to see things that they can't do.

But that is just my opinion.

 

[Eddie]

That's not an answer.

Sorry didn't feel like writing up a long essay about it. But really, look at the examples I showed you... isn't that basically the same thing? How is it popular when some guy just rides on a skateboard and do flips? It looks pretty cool right?

I actually showed a couple of my friends some flourishes to see their opinion on it, they were actually flipping out and saying how cool it is.

Of course I don't really perform flourishes to laymen, but that was exception to ask myself what laymen think of it.

Anything that looks cool = pretty much entertaining.


But of course... that's not always for everyone. Some people may find it dumb or boring, but that's just how they feel.

 

[Ben Long]

Flourishing really isn't any different from juggling or dancing. The entertainment comes from the beauty of movement. I find juggling to be one of the most engrossing things to watch period.

I agree that it is pointless to record oneself performing at crotch level doesn't do much to progress the art, but attacking said art as a whole is pointless. I really am beginning to hate the whole masturbation metaphor because it just doesn't fit. Masturbation has been tossed around a whole lot lately. Masturbation is self-gratification, and that's basically it. When one practices fluid movement with an object, it is called juggling, not choking the chicken (pardon my french). But again, I agree that all performance art (which juggling is) should be performed, not done in front of a camera.

By the way, you make want to change "webcame" to "web cam."

--Ben Long

 

[Steerpike]

For those who keep comparing it skateboarding, I hate sports (unless you count Parkour, which I had a lot of fun doing in college and would love to start doing again). You'll have to try to appeal to me in a different way. Also, I would think with extreme sports, you have the adrenaline factor at the very least. Riding a bike down the side of a mountain has a lot more inherent drama than a Sybil.

As for the comparison to juggling and dancing, I understand the inherent artistic value. That's not what I'm arguing.

What I'm arguing is how does one make it entertaining? How do you make it worth my while?

I attended the Renaissance Festival in my hometown last week. One of the performers was Arsene Dupin from Paris, France. He put a wonderful show involving juggling, contact juggling, illusion, and comedy. And he did the whole thing mute. That was entertaining. And I wonder if anyone out there would like to take a guess at why.

As to the masturbation argument, I use the word because it fits. Masturbation is self-gratification. I want to learn penspinning. Not because I plan to actually perform it, but it's something I'd do purely for myself. That by definition would be masturbatory, and I'm cool with that because I'm not pretending it's for anything else than my own amusement.

 

[tsarothpaco]

How could one make it entertaining...hmmmm.

Well as I see it ONE couldn't make it entertaining...many would have to make it entertaining. For laymen to find cardistry entertaining the art would have to be spread and become known.

Who doesn't know what juggling, magic, skate boarding etc is...but who knows what cardistry is, not many.

Though most such things (examples above) are interesting alone they are familiar and people knows whats going on...cardistry isn't familiar to the general public.

If cardistry is to advance to an art that people will recognize it will have to grow.

(If this isn't what you meant and simply wanted to know how to make such a thing entertaining in a different context I apoligize).

~PaCo

 

[visualartist]

For those who keep comparing it skateboarding, I hate sports (unless you count Parkour, which I had a lot of fun doing in college and would love to start doing again). You'll have to try to appeal to me in a different way. Also, I would think with extreme sports, you have the adrenaline factor at the very least. Riding a bike down the side of a mountain has a lot more inherent drama than a Sybil.

As for the comparison to juggling and dancing, I understand the inherent artistic value. That's not what I'm arguing.

What I'm arguing is how does one make it entertaining? How do you make it worth my while?

I attended the Renaissance Festival in my hometown last week. One of the performers was Arsene Dupin from Paris, France. He put a wonderful show involving juggling, contact juggling, illusion, and comedy. And he did the whole thing mute. That was entertaining. And I wonder if anyone out there would like to take a guess at why.

As to the masturbation argument, I use the word because it fits. Masturbation is self-gratification. I want to learn penspinning. Not because I plan to actually perform it, but it's something I'd do purely for myself. That by definition would be masturbatory, and I'm cool with that because I'm not pretending it's for anything else than my own amusement.

Alot of people here have answered your question already.
Not everybody flourishes for laymen.some do some dont.
D+M's approach to performing flourishes for spectators is a good example of how it can be worth your "while" i guess.He doesnt just stand there.He moves with the cards.like dancing.
Maybe YOU dont like watching sports or people dance and such but alot of people do.And in that way it is entertaining.Like watching a guy on stilts juggle.Sometimes you dont have to try so hard to make something entertaining.Sometimes by itself it already is.

 

[simons]

For those who keep comparing it skateboarding, I hate sports (unless you count Parkour, which I had a lot of fun doing in college and would love to start doing again). You'll have to try to appeal to me in a different way. Also, I would think with extreme sports, you have the adrenaline factor at the very least. Riding a bike down the side of a mountain has a lot more inherent drama than a Sybil.

As for the comparison to juggling and dancing, I understand the inherent artistic value. That's not what I'm arguing.

What I'm arguing is how does one make it entertaining? How do you make it worth my while?

I attended the Renaissance Festival in my hometown last week. One of the performers was Arsene Dupin from Paris, France. He put a wonderful show involving juggling, contact juggling, illusion, and comedy. And he did the whole thing mute. That was entertaining. And I wonder if anyone out there would like to take a guess at why.

As to the masturbation argument, I use the word because it fits. Masturbation is self-gratification. I want to learn penspinning. Not because I plan to actually perform it, but it's something I'd do purely for myself. That by definition would be masturbatory, and I'm cool with that because I'm not pretending it's for anything else than my own amusement.

Do you feel self-gratified from your post? The question is rhetorical. If you're not entertained then don't watch. There isn't one thing that someone can do to make everyone in this world entertained. If it doesn't entertain you....who care's? Go masturbate somewhere else.

 

[Steerpike]

Alot of people here have answered your question already.

No, they've argued with me that it's the same as skateboarding, but I have no idea what the hell that means. They've argued with me that cardistry is artistic, but that's not what I asked.

Not everybody flourishes for laymen.some do some dont.

I'm concerned with the ones that do. Don't tell me about the ones that don't, because they don't count.

D+M's approach to performing flourishes for spectators is a good example of how it can be worth your "while" i guess.He doesnt just stand there.He moves with the cards.like dancing.

That's not describing how. That's painting a mental image.

Maybe YOU dont like watching sports or people dance and such but alot of people do.And in that way it is entertaining.

That sounds a lot like circular logic.

Do you feel self-gratified from your post? The question is rhetorical. If you're not entertained then don't watch. There isn't one thing that someone can do to make everyone in this world entertained. If it doesn't entertain you....who care's? Go masturbate somewhere else.

A little defensive are we?

The loud whooshing noise you hear is my point going over your head. Pay attention next time and maybe you won't feel the need to get so aggressive over a dissenting opinion. Who knows? You might even figure out that I'm on your side without me having to explain it to you.

 

[Eddie]

I was comparing it to skateboarding...

I honestly don't really know to your question. At first I really didn't find it entertaining either. It looked like juggling with cards with me, but it later grew on me and it's pretty fun for me. Not really sure how I can describe it.

 

[Steerpike]

I honestly don't really know to your question.

I don't expect a breakthrough answer on the spot. It's a difficult question. Take your time, because it's not like any of us are going anywhere anytime soon.

 

[dragon521]

But masturbation is entertaining >.>...

I played at a Mozart Festival today, and after I was done a group of dancers performed a routine on stage. I was thinking, if you take away the music you take a lot out of the ballet. The people that are performing understand the beauty of each movement they're doing, but some of it is lost in translation to the audience, unless some are familiar with the moves. It's kind of like how spectators can't see any major differences between any card matrixes (that are performed well) while magicians drool over Armando Lucero's. I think the the key to making cardistry entertaining for a live audience is to performing it to music on stage, just like dance. As for doing it close up, I would compare that to someone coming up to you and saying check this out, and breaking into a double pirouette, it's just weird.

And I disagree with the cardistry/juggling comparison. Juggling at its very core is comedic. Then that can be magnified by the performer's actions, facial expressions, what he's juggling etc. There's nothing funny about a J5. And I'm not talking about productions, those can be compared to juggling.

 

[cbols23]

But what's entertaining about it?

Some people find it entertaining because to some, it shows dexterity, while to others it may just be something that they admire because they can not do the same.

Let's suppose I'm a guy walking by and I see someone doing fancy stuff with a deck of cards. How is this entertaining to me? What do I get out of it? What do you get out of it?

What you may get out of it is to see something that you may not normally see everyday.
I get the enjoyment of people saying "Oh, that is awesome, you are so coll" ect. Or I just like to put a smile on some people's faces.

How do you make this art, which on the surface looks like little more than masturbation into something entertaining?

As I said, what makes it entertaining is that people can't do it themselves, and while we can, we can respect the others than can do it exceptionally well.

 

[simons]

No, they've argued with me that it's the same as skateboarding, but I have no idea what the hell that means. They've argued with me that cardistry is artistic, but that's not what I asked.



I'm concerned with the ones that do. Don't tell me about the ones that don't, because they don't count.



That's not describing how. That's painting a mental image.



That sounds a lot like circular logic.



A little defensive are we?

The loud whooshing noise you hear is my point going over your head. Pay attention next time and maybe you won't feel the need to get so aggressive over a dissenting opinion. Who knows? You might even figure out that I'm on your side without me having to explain it to you.

Yes you're a little defensive, and on the attack. I'm basically repeating what you said, but directed it back at you...look in the mirror lately? Do you hear the whooshing sound? Get it?

 

[Steerpike]

I think the the key to making cardistry entertaining for a live audience is to performing it to music on stage, just like dance.

An interesting thought, but that begs the question if that is the only way. Is it? Why or why not?

As I said, what makes it entertaining is that people can't do it themselves,

I'm not entirely sure I buy into that logic. Guitarist Michael Angelo can do things I can't, but I could never get into his music.

Yes you're a little defensive, and on the attack. I'm basically repeating what you said, but directed it back at you...look in the mirror lately? Do you hear the whooshing sound? Get it?

Why am I reminded of the Monty Python argument clinic sketch?

Kid, I'm on the side of everyone else here. If the questions I'm asking make you uncomfortable, too bad. They're supposed to.

If you can't haul yourself up by your intellectual boot straps and show the kind of effort into advancing the conversation that some others here have shown, then leave. You have nothing of value to add here.

To put it another way, I like manipulation as an entertainment and I ask these questions because they're necessary.

Now get lost. The adults are talking.

 

[cbols23]

I'm not entirely sure I buy into that logic. Guitarist Michael Angelo can do things I can't, but I could never get into his music.

Ha ha, I'm sorry, what I meant is that some people may find flourishing entertaining because of the difficulty that they see. While others may enjoy it because it is different, and others may have their own reason. But not everyone will always be entertained by one certain thing.

 

[Steerpike]

Ha ha, I'm sorry, what I meant is that some people may find flourishing entertaining because of the difficulty that they see. While others may enjoy it because it is different, and others may have their own reason. But not everyone will always be entertained by one certain thing.

Well that's the thing, isn't it? Who are you trying to appeal to and why?

Does anyone here know who the hell their audience is? I see a lot of theories getting thrown around, but unlike with a lot of magicians I've known, not many cardistry specialists seem to know who it is exactly they want to perform for.