Totally Out of Control - Better left unreplicated?

Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Hey all, I've been talking magic with friends a fair bit recently and I thought I'd share something which has a bit of relevance to Theory11. This will be a long-ish post, if you can't be bothered to read it, that's fine, don't read on, it won't be succint. But I would firstly like to say I respect Mr. Kenner a very great deal, and at no time during this post am I intending to insult, degrade or otherwise diminish anyone from Theory11 or their actions.

I've wanted Totally Out of Control (hereafter TOoC) the book for a while. So why is it not on my extensive list of wants anymore? Because the DVD set is coming out. I'm aware that a few people made this argument when the project was first announced. But in a few months, or whenever this gets released, every young magician and his rabbit, top hat, wand and animated silks will be performing stuff from TOoC. Ew.

Let's take The Trilogy as an example. First off, I'll say that I hate the D&D tricks, I think they're shocking, I would never perform any of them, I don't like them, and they're not the type of magic I would perform in any case. But, putting that aside for a moment! How many variations of The Queens are there? How many people here perform The Queens? Tivo? How many YouTube videos are there of people performing The Queens? I don't want to perform something that that many people perform.

Every transposition made by the newest generations of magicians engrossed in the world of T11, E and Penguin, convinced that these three companies are the world of magic, is called a Tivo. Tivo freaking 3.0. Tivo freaking 2.4.7.4.87.5.531258796298765837265. The average knowledge of magic of young magicians these days extend only to these three companies. If they don't stock it, no-one knows about it, no-one cares about it. Take The Gecko. On sale for a while. Nothing. On sale by E. Huge buzz. From people who are convinced that the magic offered by these three companies is the ONLY magic around. Take The Queens. Who knows who created The Queens? Not many people. And genericism breeds generic performers. These are the types of magicians who will mostly be performing from TOoC.

Do I really want to be associated to magicians like this?

Call me a mentalist, but I believe the same will happen to TOoC. Which is a pity.

But don't get me wrong. I don't mind. I don't mind that the majority of people my age are going on a DVD craze and ignoring the classics. That's cool, I'll learn from Vernon, from Cervon, from Tamariz and Ascanio and Jennings and Carney. No, you guys leave all those books to me, give them all to me. I've got a stage gig coming up, a real show, a real theatre - and these classics are why, I'm proud to say.

That's what sets me apart, so I honestly don't mind if lots of people buy and butcher and copy TOoC. But I won't buy it. I bear no ill wishes to Theory11 and I do understand that they're a company so of course, by all means, I hope this is a product which sells well for you guys.

I believe that with a routine like The Queens, performed so often, it stifles the need to make yourself different, and make your performance different. And no, I don't mean creating a variation so that change x is now change y. I mean make the way you perform it, more than the method, but the way you perform it different. It doesn't mean it's impossible to be yourself and to be different. But routines like this certainly tend to in my view prevent people from thinking of how to personalising it. And if you asked many magicians how they'd personalised the routine, they'd say "I exchanged the Clipshift for x." Give me a break, that's bull****. That's not personalisation.

Originality means a big deal to me. I see a lot of people on these forums say, and a few are probably thinking this now, "But originality doesn't matter to laypeople!"

Incorrect!

Perhaps it might be better phrased thus: Originality doesn't matter to laypeople who have never been influenced by magic before.

Originality doesn't matter to people who have never seen magic before, who have never heard a story about magicians from a friend before, who have never seen magicians on TV before, who have never thought about magic or magicians before, who have never had the time or circumstance to create preconceptions about magic or magicians.

But if you think about it, a lot of people do have their own preconceptions about magic, don't they? If people think of magicians as a certain mould of character, I believe that it is imperative that we break this mould. And herein lies the importance of originality. If we perform for someone who has seen magic before, originality matters. If someone has heard about a trick before, originality matters. If someone has seen Criss Angel or David Blaine on TV, originality matters, in fact, as long as the audience has some sort of thought on magic, originality matters, because whatever you perform, your audience will have expectations. You may want to follow these expectations, you may wish to subvert them, but in either case, originality is exceptionally important.

No, not many will say "I've seen that trick before." But if someone even thinks about your magic and associates it with a stereotype, an anecdote, an experience, then that's when originality matters. It matters because you're you, you're not Lance Burton, or Dai Vernon or Mr. Chris Kenner. And that matters for your magic.

Sure, for a few people, originality will not matter at all. None of these will apply; whether you perform something known or unknown, steretypical or not, will not matter. But for more people than you'd think, it does.

So why not simply strive for originality? Some won't care. But it will affect many more than you'd think. And then what, if not originality? So for the sake of those many more, please try to be original, it really does make much more sense. Spectators won't care that your routine has been done before - at least not openly in that sense. But they will care when you conform to or subvert what they feel about magic. And that, when your magic has been performed, means a great deal indeed. When you guys get your copies of TOoC in the mail, please try to be different about it.

But in the end it won't matter to me, because I'll still be doing my thing, so unfortunately, because of the release of TOoC, that means I won't be getting the DVD or the book.
 
Oct 5, 2008
123
0
Great to see some intelligence on these forums, and I agree with you 100%.
Finally someone speaks up and notices and I now know Im not alone.
Everyone will go on a craze such as what D&D has released. I have seen countless Tivo's....to bring up...everyone knows it.
We all make choices in life, but in the end our choices make us.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,241
1
Where were you when I was making this argument? I had to fend for myself man!

In the video, Chris said he always wants to be different. Whats so different about releasing a dvd on a book that already exists, and has nothing wrong with it?


Now a very different book, has become just another dvd. Sad.
 

jonraiker

vp of development
Team member
Aug 5, 2007
1,330
24
Florida
instagram.com
Let me start by asking a simple but very important question - Who do you perform for? For yourself? Magicians? Or to amaze an audience in a way they may have never experienced?

If it's the last, then it doesn't matter whether something is a book or a DVD or even a smoke signal. Spreading GOOD magic should always be looked upon as a good thing, as that only inspires additional creators to continue working (day and night) and continue creating.

Will having something more in the center of attention inspire more magicians to learn it and perform it? Probably. But why does that matter? Why does it matter if 30 other magicians in Iceland also perform that effect? David Blaine's first special was structured entirely on effects that were decades old. Did that affect how his spectators reacted? Did that affect how the world reacted to the special?

Not a bit.
 
Nov 16, 2008
2,267
0
36
In the not to distant future
i own the book and I perform the tricks from it very often. it is probably one of my favourite books that i have purchased for magic. when i heard that the dvd was being made i was also upset. I didn't like knowing the fact that soon people will be doing the same tricks, some well, some poorly, some people revealing it. that made me, well, disappointed. After a while, though, I began to realize that even though there are going to be waaaay to many videos on youtube and these forums saying my version of missing link, diet or perversion. i would get fed up. It wont affect me in my performances because there aren't many if any magicians near m so i don't have to worry about people performing the same effects. but seeing all the variations will most definitely kill the effects for me.
that's my little rant.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,241
1
Does it effect your specs reaction? No. Does it effect your reaction? yes.

Honestly it just seems like your making excuses. I love Kenner, hands down one of my fave magicians, but I think this is a really bad decision.

When I do a effect, I want to be having fun too. I'm not going to have fun doing a trick that I know thousands of other people do. Why do something every other 12 year old magician does? Yes it doesn't matter to the spectator, but it matters to me.
 
Aug 10, 2008
2,023
2
33
In a rock concert
well, I really agree with prae, but right now I can't think of something inteligent to say or something that can contribute to this thread, Ill post something later.;)
 
Aug 27, 2008
283
0
Tijuana bC
Does it effect your specs reaction? No. Does it effect your reaction? yes.

Honestly it just seems like your making excuses. I love Kenner, hands down one of my fave magicians, but I think this is a really bad decision.

When I do a effect, I want to be having fun too. I'm not going to have fun doing a trick that I know thousands of other people do. Why do something every other 12 year old magician does? Yes it doesn't matter to the spectator, but it matters to me.


Are you serious dude, whats your outlook on magic man think about it, your performing tricks to astonish audiences... personally I have fun with even the most simplest trick that is a million years old used by every magician on earth, you know why because of the reactions!! like houchin said thats what drives us thats whats keeps us going ...not that the trick is so underground and no one knows about it : / screw that its all about the experiece you leave your audiences with for me thats the fun in magic.
 

nayost

Elite Member
Jun 18, 2008
167
0
Los Angeles, CA
i'm nowhere near as experienced of a magician as most of you are here on the forum. however, i think a lot of you are losing sight on the real goal here. jon asked a great question here "Who do you perform for? For yourself? Magicians? Or to amaze an audience in a way they may have never experienced?" who cares if some 12 year old magicians can do the same moves as you. the real question is can you perform the trick. knowing the difference between doing magic and performing magic.

if you want to cut your selves short of knowledge TOoC can provide, it's your lost. if you don't know how a slight is done, how can you add it in your routines? if you don't know the basic movements how can you improve it and make it work for you?

e.g. how many times have you seen the cups and balls routine?(more than once?) i'm sure a lot of layman has as well. yet, david regal performed a cups and balls routine based on marshmallows and hot chocolate. pouring out hot chocolate from a cup at the end of the routine. surprised everyone!

i think i've rambled on long enough. my point is, don't sell your self short of knowledge, in the end it is what you know and how you perform it that counts. it really doesn't matter what the guy next to you is doing. if he's performing the same trick, the move to another trick, or personalize the trick with your own story. don't get so hung up on the not so polished magicians doing the slights so sloppily on youtube. (to me, most of those are not performances, just demonstrations of how they execute the moves.) unless you want to wait for those videos to be uploaded, and learn from the free tutorials, haha, kidding.
 
Aug 2, 2008
496
0
Cincinnati
In a way, I agree with the posts of people. I had the same feeling with some of the bands I loved growing up. ie. The Used, Fall Out Boy before they got huge. Next thing I knew, there were a ton of kids wearing their shirts around because it was the cool thing to do. However, as I got older, I didn't care as much. I was happy that a kid might get some enjoyment out of the music. If I were in a band, I know thats what I would want. In the same instance with magic, I don't see a huge problem. I only see my arsenal improved by learning these tricks, whether from the book or from the DVD.

I think originality is a good thing to have in magic. However, I can honestly say that I am not very original. This could be due to me being a follower and me only being in magic for 9 months. Or, of course, this could just be an excuse on my part. But at this time, I suppose I'm not as worried about being original as I am about concentrating on learning magic.
 
Jan 15, 2008
78
0
whoa, this thread is making me feel stupid, hey everybdy!!! way to man people are using the double lift, so lets stop using it!!!! wait a minute, no why would I do that?

screw that biatch, when is a spectator going to think of originality, when all they are thinking about is you playing with your cards in a way that will eventually produce their card. I don't know why I am even writing on this forum, I almost never do due to the fact that there are just way to many noobies in here. if me and a million other people go out and perform the trick panic, then guess what, thats a million people getting the same great reaction. Honestly, this thread is totally useless, nobody knows the difference.
 
Aug 10, 2008
2,023
2
33
In a rock concert
whoa, this thread is making me feel stupid, hey everybdy!!! way to man people are using the double lift, so lets stop using it!!!! wait a minute, no why would I do that?

screw that biatch, when is a spectator going to think of originality, when all they are thinking about is you playing with your cards in a way that will eventually produce their card. I don't know why I am even writing on this forum, I almost never do due to the fact that there are just way to many noobies in here. if me and a million other people go out and perform the trick panic, then guess what, thats a million people getting the same great reaction. Honestly, this thread is totally useless, nobody knows the difference.

wouuw man, you sure are the real deal can I be your padawan?:rolleyes:


do you want to be mediocre? I mean,lets take music for example, I can take a very easy song that is cool and impress someone that doesnt know about music (this would be the laymen) and play it, yeah the guy watching you is going to like it, but if you are going to be happy just with that, well then, we are being mediocre performers of magic.

and to the guy above me, no offense man, but you are just poorly justifying yourself, be a man and try to step out on the plate, to be different, and for christ sakes, you should eat a bowl of humble-cheerios... peace man

I DO NOT want to be mediocre...


EDIT: I just can't find the right words to express myself and my concerning in this matter, please excuse me , ill try to post something else later.
 
Mar 2, 2008
412
0
You have to remember, there are more spectators then magicains out there... A LOT MORE. Also theres alot of people who do different types of magic who don't use tricks from Totally Out of Control. In other words, the chances of a spectator seeing the same trick again and in the time period that they still remeber that same very trick it is very very slim.
 
I USED to be a big advocate for books not being made into dvd's. now i could care less.

When T11 released the DPS i was rather frustrated as i spent lots of time learning and working on finding the tips and hints of the move. now to me its another move kids buy, think is too hard or try to use and get busted, get discouraged and leave it alone. And BTW it is not intermediate. when will any of the sleights be rated hard? flourishes are not harder than mastering a second or bottom deal. different topic.

this same thing will happen with the book. sure magicians won't be as impressed unless you are doing it so well that they can't tell its something they know.

WHO CARES?

Audiences don't. they don't watch the magic industry and buy the new dvd's to catch you.

again, i used to care but now its a pointless argument. case closed.
 
Feb 27, 2008
2,342
1
33
Grand prairie TX
Brian Griffin-Hey if you dont like it,get on the internet and complain.


But seriously though.These 'problems' have been around forever.It just seems like it happens more because the internet connects us with other magicians alot faster but its always been around.Things like this happen and always will.
I remember when the bicycle guardians were announced to be sold in stores and there was an immediate uproar of dissaproval.All about exposure and kids coming into this site and blah,blah,blah.
Now,no one cares.Nothing happened.There was no dramatic change in magic.
The world keeps on spinnin'....
 
Last edited by a moderator:

James Wise Magic

Elite Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,021
13
something that I think people should realize that sometimes it doesn't matter if the spectator has seen a certain trick before, sure, maybe it's sometimes better that you perform one that they haven't before.


But several, several times I have performed effects and my spectators have said, "Oh my gosh.... you are amazing. Seriously, I've seen this trick done on tv, my brother has done it to me before, but just the way you did it...... man.... I was just hooked!! Even though I know how it's done, somehow, you knocked me out!"


Right there!!!! You see? I have my own personal way of touching people emotionally, and even though they have seen it before and even know how it's done, you can still bring them experiences that they have never felt before! And that's true magic there!
 
Dec 22, 2007
567
1
Long Island, New York
I can never figure out why magicians feel a need to control people that don't mean anything to them. If you feel the need to be that original, then in the words of the great Brian Tudor "Create your own ****" :p
 
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