Totally Out of Control - Better left unreplicated?

[praetoritevong]

Part 2 of 2.

Believe me when I say the book is already in torrent form. You can't stop piracy no one can.If something is put it, it will be be downloadable no matter what.

I'll also tell you that Kenner wanted to put out a TOOC DVD for a while. Whether or not he wanted to make one before Theory 11 was thought of, I don't know. However, I do know that he wanted to put out a DVD before Theory 11 went live. Over a year ago.

Again, the DVD will have new effects, new handlings, new ideas, and everything the original book had as far as content goes. Personally, I'm hoping that TOOC inspires people to read more books because it will show the people that only buy DVD's what kind of magic can be in books.

I've got news for you, TOOC is no longer a secret. Almost every person on this forum already owns the book.

Doug, I agree with your post almost completely. I think you're absolutely right.

But to say that last line, I'm sorry, I mean no offense but I honestly think that that is a ludicrous assertion to make. I really really don't think the majority of the forum owns the book, sorry man.

To be blatantly honest, it's CK's material and he has every right to publish it in DVD form - if he so desires (which is the case). If you write a legendary book and decide to retain it solely in written format, it's your right to do so. Chris felt he had refined and developed different pieces enough to reproduce the book in a more visual format. Simple as that.

Likewise, everyone has every right to choose whether or not to purchase a product. But to desire to keep something incredible from being spread to others that are truly inspired to pursue and study this art form is not in the best interests of the future of this industry. CK has worked for almost 15 years refining, polishing, and redefining the material within TOOC. I consider it an honor and a privilege to be able to learn from the product of that journey. And I'm excited to do so.

I find it ironic that I haven't really seen any of these threads arise from the depths regarding True Astonishments. Has the material in the acclaimed Art of Astonishment series (which we all recommend on a regular basis) lost all value, as well? Of course not. It's just as special. It's just as acclaimed. And the variations and nuances within the DVD series are amazing.

Four books from which we can never use anything from ever again - all because the original creators decided to produce them (with additional ideas and refinements) in video format? Of course not.

By who? 117 magicians? Or the millions upon millions who were inspired, touched, and impacted by the astonishment he spread through the airwaves? If you're performing for yourself, if you're performing for magicians, then you're in the minority. I perform for spectators. I perform to spread astonishment. If I can be original along the way, great. If I can be unique along the way, great. But my goal is to impact my spectators - not magicians, not myself.

Hi again Jon,

For the most part, I agree with your post. You are absolutely right about CK and TOoC, of course. I'm just urging some caution about over-spreading and overpopularising something, you know? You can't deny that the best material has and always will be in the classic texts. The fact that D&D have popularised magic and flourishing is absolutely fantastic for magic - though I don't like their magic per se. But as a side effect, a lot of youngsters are shying away from studying Vernon etc., because of it, and buying in a DVD craze. It's not that TOoC has bad material or anything. But I think we should just be careful of side effects. But at the same time I wish no offense or diminishment of Mr. Kenner.

I won't answer the last paragraph since it was directed at me, although I happen to agree with Steerpike. But regarding True Astonishments:

I feel that True Astonishments is different in a few ways as a product.

Firstly, it's a little more inaccessible. Ok, not terribly so, but it is. Second, TA contains much more new material that TOoC does. TOoC contains a lot of updates, many many years of work, rehashing, etc. But TA does not even come close to covering all of the effects in AoA. Putting TA with its book counterpart together, we see that the majority of TA is not in AoA, and the majority of AoA is not in TA either.

Please note that I am not implying anything about the quality of TOoC. I've gone to great lengths to respect Chris and not deride him in any way because I do think he's brilliant. I hold the highest respect for him and this remains whether or not I buy TOoC, or no matter whatever else happens regarding his work.

 

[dragon521]

You can't deny that the best material has and always will be in the classic texts.

What if that material was put on DVD? Would you then come here and post the same thing about "Revolutionary Technique 8 DVD Set"?

 

[praetoritevong]

A classic text would be classic no matter which medium it is in. But yes, I would post the same thing if it were in this exact same circumstance (which is not possible, but theoretically..), but for a different reason.

You can put tricks on a DVD. You can put sleights on a DVD. But you can't put the nuances on a DVD. Not to the extent that you can with a book.

Take Erdnase for example. One of the first thing he teaches is jog shuffles. Now they're some of the simplest things you'll see taught anywhere. But seriously, read the description four, five, six times, and experienced magicians will tell you that there are so many beautiful little touches that Erdnase puts in, even with something so simple. The way he describes it, the way he uses certain words in specific places give you more technique and subtleties than you could ever describe on DVDs.

I'm not knocking DVDs at all. But I just wanted to briefly answer your hypothetical - yes, I would.

 

[dragon521]

Interesting. Isn't not being spoonfed the nuances help you develop your own? Isn't that being original?

 

[praetoritevong]

Hmm. You make a fair point. I think there's a catch about nuances though, which is this: You can only appreciate them once you're more advanced. First time you read through the move, fine, you learn the basic motions, but a beginner will not understand the beauty of Erdnase. Say you read Erdnase once a year, and four years later you're reading it for the fifth time. You've grown immensely as a magician, and this time, you read it and you realise, wow, that's actually so brilliant, I never noticed before. I think that's the way it is with Classics. One of the guys remarked on this (I think it might have been romeo, I can't remember) recently. Brad Henderson once said to me of a book, it's the perfect beginner's book with lessons no beginner could understand. And I think that sums things up pretty well. The books are loaded with nuances - but, you'll only understand them after you've worked with the move yourself and worked with magic.

Incidentally, I'd also place a differentiation between originality with sleights, and originality in routines.

 

[dragon521]

Hmm. You make a fair point. I think there's a catch about nuances though, which is this: You can only appreciate them once you're more advanced. First time you read through the move, fine, you learn the basic motions, but a beginner will not understand the beauty of Erdnase. Say you read Erdnase once a year, and four years later you're reading it for the fifth time. You've grown immensely as a magician, and this time, you read it and you realise, wow, that's actually so brilliant, I never noticed before. I think that's the way it is with Classics. One of the guys remarked on this (I think it might have been romeo, I can't remember) recently. Brad Henderson once said to me of a book, it's the perfect beginner's book with lessons no beginner could understand. And I think that sums things up pretty well. The books are loaded with nuances - but, you'll only understand them after you've worked with the move yourself and worked with magic.

But by the time you're able to appreciate them, a lot of the time you've figured them out or added your own nuances by then, no? Sure there are a few "Geez, I completely missed that, I should keep my fingers more spread apart" or whatever but there are just as many, if not more "Heh, I've been doing that for a while now, I just wished I caught it on my first read-through" moments. What I'm trying to get at, is whether you use books or DVDs, no matter how many people or how few are performing the goodies inside, a truly dedicated person will develop originality in their performance and sleights. I see it as, if there are people that want to suck, let them, but I'm going to do my part to help better my magic and bring joy to the spectators day (or wonder, fear, or any other fealing you want to convey).

 

[praetoritevong]

Yeah absolutely, that's a fair point in itself. I'd only add that there's always room to learn, and, perhaps contrary to my last point, that it doesn't mean that a beginner can't begin to learn immense details from something like Erdnase as well.

But you make a very good point, and at the end of the day, I think you're right; a creative person will always be creative no matter what medium or what text he or she is studying from.

 

[dragon521]

So with that being stated, I would like to ask you, point blank, how TOOC the DVD will stop you from being original?

 

[praetoritevong]

So with that being stated, I would like to ask you, point blank, how TOOC the DVD will stop you from being original?

How original can you really make a routine like The Queens? Or Tivo 2.0?

It's not that I couldn't make something original (although I'm sure that there will be a few routines from TOoC which will follow down this same path as Trilogy). But do I really want to perform something that 20 of my magician friends are performing? Say you have 20 magicians sitting together, and you ask them to come up with their own version of 2CM. How different do you think these routines will be? From what I've seen, not very.

It's more than that, though. It's enough for me, that because so many magicians I know are performing these effects, to be put off them because I'd rather perform unique effects to myself. This, first and foremost, is a personal preference, an opinion, and hence only relevant to me (and this was the whole point of the post. I don't expect everyone to agree, but it's a personal preference I have). If I have the choice between making a generic effect unique and a unique effect unique, I will always prefer to pick the latter. Which is not to say I don't like my Out of this World routine, it's one of my favourites in my repertoire. But if asked to present one of ACR and Alone in the Dark, of course subject to circumstance, but I would much prefer the latter.

I think this matters very much when it comes to gigs, for example. There are many many magicians vying for gigs in the professional circuit. So who gets the job, a guy who performs a different version of ACR, or Alain Nu performing his brilliant handling of A.C.A.A.N?

When it comes to gigs, the laymen are no longer just laymen. They're clients, and clients do research. Clients see magicians, they look into magicians.

From a personal standpoint, I also hold grave concerns, as voiced before, for a LOT of young magicians these days (without wanting to sound arrogant - I myself am young). You know the type - the YouTubers, the newbies, the one stuck on the latest E product. And it doesn't matter to me professionally one bit, and I won't lose sleep over it. But I do care in the sense that I care about magic. And for these, I hold concerns given the thousands of Tivo 2.0's on YouTube. Now there are a group of people who will find it difficult to be original. It's not just for myself that I don't like TOoC, it's for the wave of TOoC videos that I personally believe will come out. Dan and Dave have been great for magic. But thousands of Queens videos, each as generic as the last by magicians who have no idea how to be original is not good for magic. So in this sense the selling of TOoC is not beneficial, despite the indubitably great material it contains. For such magicians who find it difficult enough to summon originality, I think it will only hinder its progression in many magicians.

 

[visualartist]

I just flat out sometimes really dont care if other magicians perform the effects from DVDs in a stiff or generic way.
Its not like the people I perform for here will ever see magic from them.
The chances of the exact same spectator of seeing the same effect from someone else are a million to one.So I just dont worry about it.
Alot of people on here seem to get put off when a whole lot of other magicians learn an effect like Tivo or like in this case,TooC tricks that they will learn from the DVD.
But its like when I get mad because after years of me knowing an underground band and listening to them suddenly the whole city(the teens) after awhile starts listening to them and wearing band T-shirts and talking about how they're going to the show.I feel like they're just posers ya know?Like one of these"i liked it before it was cool" type of thing.
And thinking back it just sounds so childish that i was like that.
But...just get over it.Its gonna happen.Dont worry about everyone else and enjoy it yourself.

P.S. im sure that almost none of the 'youtubers' actually perform Tivo live.

 

[dragon521]

How original can you really make a routine like The Queens? Or Tivo 2.0?

It's not that I couldn't make something original (although I'm sure that there will be a few routines from TOoC which will follow down this same path as Trilogy). But do I really want to perform something that 20 of my magician friends are performing? Say you have 20 magicians sitting together, and you ask them to come up with their own version of 2CM. How different do you think these routines will be? From what I've seen, not very.

It's more than that, though. It's enough for me, that because so many magicians I know are performing these effects, to be put off them because I'd rather perform unique effects to myself. This, first and foremost, is a personal preference, an opinion, and hence only relevant to me (and this was the whole point of the post. I don't expect everyone to agree, but it's a personal preference I have). If I have the choice between making a generic effect unique and a unique effect unique, I will always prefer to pick the latter. Which is not to say I don't like my Out of this World routine, it's one of my favourites in my repertoire. But if asked to present one of ACR and Alone in the Dark, of course subject to circumstance, but I would much prefer the latter.

I think this matters very much when it comes to gigs, for example. There are many many magicians vying for gigs in the professional circuit. So who gets the job, a guy who performs a different version of ACR, or Alain Nu performing his brilliant handling of A.C.A.A.N?

When it comes to gigs, the laymen are no longer just laymen. They're clients, and clients do research. Clients see magicians, they look into magicians.

From a personal standpoint, I also hold grave concerns, as voiced before, for a LOT of young magicians these days (without wanting to sound arrogant - I myself am young). You know the type - the YouTubers, the newbies, the one stuck on the latest E product. And it doesn't matter to me professionally one bit, and I won't lose sleep over it. But I do care in the sense that I care about magic. And for these, I hold concerns given the thousands of Tivo 2.0's on YouTube. Now there are a group of people who will find it difficult to be original. It's not just for myself that I don't like TOoC, it's for the wave of TOoC videos that I personally believe will come out. Dan and Dave have been great for magic. But thousands of Queens videos, each as generic as the last by magicians who have no idea how to be original is not good for magic. So in this sense the selling of TOoC is not beneficial, despite the indubitably great material it contains. For such magicians who find it difficult enough to summon originality, I think it will only hinder its progression in many magicians.

This is all true. All I'm going to point out is that when you mention the classics, just because Vernon's Classic Triumph isn't being performed all over Youtube doesn't mean that there aren't people "above ground" performing stuff from the Vernon Trilogy or Marlo Books or what have you. I think we should perform what we like, and if we're truly dedicated, we'll find ourselves showing more and more originality, so much so we may even mystify our own selves.

 

[praetoritevong]

I just flat out sometimes really dont care if other magicians perform the effects from DVDs in a stiff or generic way.
Its not like the people I perform for here will ever see magic from them.
The chances of the exact same spectator of seeing the same effect from someone else are a million to one.So I just dont worry about it.
Alot of people on here seem to get put off when a whole lot of other magicians learn an effect like Tivo or like in this case,TooC tricks that they will learn from the DVD.
But its like when I get mad because after years of me knowing an underground band and listening to them suddenly the whole city(the teens) after awhile starts listening to them and wearing band T-shirts and talking about how they're going to the show.I feel like they're just posers ya know?Like one of these"i liked it before it was cool" type of thing.
And thinking back it just sounds so childish that i was like that.
But...just get over it.Its gonna happen.Dont worry about everyone else and enjoy it yourself.

P.S. im sure that almost none of the 'youtubers' actually perform Tivo live.

So I've had several people say, "The odds of someone seeing the same trick twice is very little". Despite me repeatedly mentioning that it's beside the point, and explaining why, and explaining what does concern me. Beside me saying that it's not necessarily about seeing the same trick. But why read? Why engage with what I'm saying? Guys like dragon and jonraiker have been making great posts to counter mine which actually do represent what I've been arguing - it is possible.

Regardless, I'm having a ball anyway. You're mistaken if you think I'm mad about anything. I could just forget it and get over it... Or I could talk about it in the hopes of improving someone's magic. And I could actually give a damn what other people are doing to the art I love. But maybe that's just me.

 

[Squ!rrel]

That was a great post, you've made some very interesting points.

It's easy to say that originality doesn't matter to laymen but this probably isn't true. It might be more accurate to say that it doesn't matter to a small amount of laymen who have no experience of magic although this probably doesn't apply to a lot of them. Most people are familiar with David Blaine and as soon as they make the connection between your effects and style and his I think it's going to considerably weaken your magic. Once they realise there's nothing special about you and perceive you as just another magician then they'll feel that they aren't getting a unique experience and there's nothing particularly extraordinary about what you're doing. This can obviously go further than just David Blaine, if they connect you with a story about another magician, even if just something they heard in passing from a friend, if you meet any of their preconceptions then I think it will weaken the experience.

However, I think, that with a sufficiently strong character and presentation it's possible to overcome this, I believe the audience will perceive you as being different enough that they won't make the connection to other magicians.

I've been planning to get TOOC for some time, i'm probably going to get the DVD's when they come out but i'm not particularly concerned about being unoriginal. I'm fairly confident that I (and many other magicians) can create a presentation and approach to the effect that is unique enough to be perceived as completely original to my spectators.

For people who just buy the DVD and perform the effects as if they were a Chris Kenner clone then they will certainly encounter a lot of problems, although these are probably the same people who endlessly uploading TiVo and only perform for camera so I don't think it should be too much of a problem for the rest of us.

 

[Lex]

(Long-time reader, first time poster. But this conversation really struck me as interesting.)

There are a couple of different things going on that I agree with in praetoritevong's original post and response to Jon Raiker, but I do actually want to give an argument for why releasing the book in DVD form is a good idea.

Ultimately, whether by a book, DVD, or podcast, we're talking about learning. People learn different ways. Some folks learn best by reading, some by hearing something described, while others need to see the trick visually. Translating a book from one medium into another allows folks who learn better through this other medium to sink their teeth into the material. I honestly can't say that I think there's anything bad about more people learning magic from Chris Kenner.

For example, I learn magic much better when I can see it performed. I can do books, but it is a much more difficult prospect. I hope against hope that someone of the caliber of the folks here at T11 produces a DVD of Expert at the Card Table. And frankly, I would probably end up buying that along with the book, because each is an invaluable supplement to the other.

That said, however, I think there is something else going on with the phenomenon praetoritevong pointed out. I do think he is correct in the eventual result, at least in the short run.

But I don't think that's anything new: there are always popular movements and fads. Sometimes they stick, sometimes they do not, and magic has them just like any other field. Yes, lots of people will all be performing the new trick-du-jour. But only if they do it well will that trick stand the test of time.

It seems like we don't hear much about the faddish tricks of Erdnase's time, the ones that every two-bit Merlin tried to pull off (or much about those Merlins, either). But that's because those tricks died, and we are left with the ones that withstood the test of time at the hands of experts.

The same thing is happening now, but it's tough to recognize because we're part of the process rather than seeing the results. The best moves from Trilogy, that inspire good artists to do great things, will live on. The ones that are more like flashes-in-the-pan will die away over time. (Admittedly, You Tube, like herpes, is forever. But even there, the forgotten tricks will slowly stop coming up in searches because of the algorithms You Tube uses.)

There will always be people who flock to the latest DVD release. Little can be done about that. But that is also where the sorting process begins. There will always be one more DVD released after that, and the gulls will flock to it. The tricks that deserve to live on will be worked into repertoires, or will be taken up by serious artists who manipulate them and make them something fantastic. The less interesting tricks will stay where they are: in last month's DVD pile.

I just don't see much use to making a buy-or-don't decision based on other people's motivations for buying the same thing. It is either a worthy product that would be good for me to own, or it is not. The reasons other people have for making the same decision are largely irrelevant.

This doesn't, however, address praetoritevong's reasons for wanting to be different--and I fully agree with those. The difficulty, I think, is in avoiding becoming "a rebel--just like everyone else." (Which, frankly, there is a lot of on You Tube.) The only answer, I think, is the most unhelpful of all: if you want to be different, make yourself different. It really is that simple, and incomparably difficult.

 

[falcohon]

I have no problem with being disliked, or having people dislike my opinion. What I will not tolerate is people criticising me for opinions that I do not have. The only people I have called idiots are people who have tried to argue a nonsensical point. I'd say that's fairly silly, wouldn't you?

Very.

Having finally understood what you were insinuating in that particular post, I offer my sincere apologies for having interpreted that wrongly.

However, you were rather vague and it seemed it was targeted at all who were opposing you. Still, I seek your understanding.

It's funny, because I've made threads like this before. What has happened? All the knowledgeable members have agreed with me. Then, I make a thread like this about a Theory11 product. And what happens? Well, firstly, all the knowledgeable members hold a great and proper debate with me. But secondly, lots of really unconsidered posts have been made by people trying to appear to have intelligence. Maybe they felt offended when I criticised a lot of people for unoriginality. Maybe they realised they were unoriginal and felt offended. Who knows. But in the former, they would ignore the topic and move on. In this latter case, they post something silly.

There were a great number in the magic community who only learned of Chris Kenner's existence after Theory11 began. For these people, Ellusionist and Theory11 - and perhaps Penguin - are the only sources for new effects. When Mr Kenner was introduced as an artist here, I felt that it was only a matter of time before TOoC became the next Trilogy. You'd start to see as many 5Speed 2.0 and Perversion v2 performances as Tivo 3.0s.

I do appreciate your comments about me and my posts greatly.

And lastly for your post, I'd like to apologise unconditionally if I appeared to be arrogant to guys such as yourself. As I said earlier I stand by the comment that an idiot is one who argues something they do not understand but pretends to have that knowledge; to everyone else, if I have appeared arrogant, I apologise.

First impressions are not everything. I may have misjudged you. If I have, again, I seek your understanding for my terrible ignorance.

On a lighter note, which part of Sydney do you reside in?

 

[tian_ci]

Majority of lay people have never seen magic tricks. At least the ones I've met while performing my street act during the summer mostly haven't seen magic. In fact, sometimes I'll introduce something like the 2CM as a trick that David Blaine does. It allows them to experience something that seems more than what it is. Meaning, they just experienced something that they might of considered as a T.V. trick as something raw, experimental, new. I don't do that for every trick, but -I- think it can build interest and it does....

As far as Kenner's material goes. I know that it won't become mainstream magic for several reasons.

1)It's not easy stuff.
2)He uses coins.
3)It requires practice!

With those reasons alone majority of the faddy, insta-trick wannabes will get discouraged from practicing. I've been working on that color changing ten routine... PussyCat...or something for about two weeks now. I won't even consider performing it for lay people yet. (arrr that sequence is annoying!)

I've reworked several of the sleights in that routine and have not necessarily made it my own, but found a way to make it fit my style.

Chances of his stuff becoming the next 2CM/ACR are slim. Majority of lay people haven't seen a magic trick. Heck, I've never really met anyone from these forums or come into close proximity of someone that performs the same stuff I do.

To make magic you're own, you need to find something in the relative of 3's I think.
Find 3 close up card tricks that you can perform very well.
Find 3 non-card effects.
Find 3 coin effects.
Create 3 routines that you can use.


Perfect these and then use them for the rest of your life. The rest of magic buying is really just for fun I think.

 

[praetoritevong]

This is all true. All I'm going to point out is that when you mention the classics, just because Vernon's Classic Triumph isn't being performed all over Youtube doesn't mean that there aren't people "above ground" performing stuff from the Vernon Trilogy or Marlo Books or what have you. I think we should perform what we like, and if we're truly dedicated, we'll find ourselves showing more and more originality, so much so we may even mystify our own selves.

Dragon, you bring up an excellent point, and of course, you are absolutely right.

That was a great post, you've made some very interesting points.

It's easy to say that originality doesn't matter to laymen but this probably isn't true. It might be more accurate to say that it doesn't matter to a small amount of laymen who have no experience of magic although this probably doesn't apply to a lot of them. Most people are familiar with David Blaine and as soon as they make the connection between your effects and style and his I think it's going to considerably weaken your magic. Once they realise there's nothing special about you and perceive you as just another magician then they'll feel that they aren't getting a unique experience and there's nothing particularly extraordinary about what you're doing. This can obviously go further than just David Blaine, if they connect you with a story about another magician, even if just something they heard in passing from a friend, if you meet any of their preconceptions then I think it will weaken the experience.

However, I think, that with a sufficiently strong character and presentation it's possible to overcome this, I believe the audience will perceive you as being different enough that they won't make the connection to other magicians.

I've been planning to get TOOC for some time, i'm probably going to get the DVD's when they come out but i'm not particularly concerned about being unoriginal. I'm fairly confident that I (and many other magicians) can create a presentation and approach to the effect that is unique enough to be perceived as completely original to my spectators.

For people who just buy the DVD and perform the effects as if they were a Chris Kenner clone then they will certainly encounter a lot of problems, although these are probably the same people who endlessly uploading TiVo and only perform for camera so I don't think it should be too much of a problem for the rest of us.

Well said as well, and that's fair enough.

(Long-time reader, first time poster. But this conversation really struck me as interesting.)

There are a couple of different things going on that I agree with in praetoritevong's original post and response to Jon Raiker, but I do actually want to give an argument for why releasing the book in DVD form is a good idea.

Ultimately, whether by a book, DVD, or podcast, we're talking about learning. People learn different ways. Some folks learn best by reading, some by hearing something described, while others need to see the trick visually. Translating a book from one medium into another allows folks who learn better through this other medium to sink their teeth into the material. I honestly can't say that I think there's anything bad about more people learning magic from Chris Kenner.

For example, I learn magic much better when I can see it performed. I can do books, but it is a much more difficult prospect. I hope against hope that someone of the caliber of the folks here at T11 produces a DVD of Expert at the Card Table. And frankly, I would probably end up buying that along with the book, because each is an invaluable supplement to the other.

That said, however, I think there is something else going on with the phenomenon praetoritevong pointed out. I do think he is correct in the eventual result, at least in the short run.

But I don't think that's anything new: there are always popular movements and fads. Sometimes they stick, sometimes they do not, and magic has them just like any other field. Yes, lots of people will all be performing the new trick-du-jour. But only if they do it well will that trick stand the test of time.

It seems like we don't hear much about the faddish tricks of Erdnase's time, the ones that every two-bit Merlin tried to pull off (or much about those Merlins, either). But that's because those tricks died, and we are left with the ones that withstood the test of time at the hands of experts.

The same thing is happening now, but it's tough to recognize because we're part of the process rather than seeing the results. The best moves from Trilogy, that inspire good artists to do great things, will live on. The ones that are more like flashes-in-the-pan will die away over time. (Admittedly, You Tube, like herpes, is forever. But even there, the forgotten tricks will slowly stop coming up in searches because of the algorithms You Tube uses.)

There will always be people who flock to the latest DVD release. Little can be done about that. But that is also where the sorting process begins. There will always be one more DVD released after that, and the gulls will flock to it. The tricks that deserve to live on will be worked into repertoires, or will be taken up by serious artists who manipulate them and make them something fantastic. The less interesting tricks will stay where they are: in last month's DVD pile.

I just don't see much use to making a buy-or-don't decision based on other people's motivations for buying the same thing. It is either a worthy product that would be good for me to own, or it is not. The reasons other people have for making the same decision are largely irrelevant.

This doesn't, however, address praetoritevong's reasons for wanting to be different--and I fully agree with those. The difficulty, I think, is in avoiding becoming "a rebel--just like everyone else." (Which, frankly, there is a lot of on You Tube.) The only answer, I think, is the most unhelpful of all: if you want to be different, make yourself different. It really is that simple, and incomparably difficult.

Your very last sentence or two sums things up perfectly. Everyone says to young magicians "Be yourselves, be different." How does one go about doing this? As if "Be different" is any sort of helpful advice. It's true, yes, but you're right, it's incomparably difficult, and yet simple. Many people at this age don't even know who they are, let alone know what the difference is. And you touch on something else as well very true - in being different, really if you think about it, "Being a rebel" is actually conforming to the youth stereotype of being "different." So what "Different" actually means is a difficult matter indeed.

I think you've made several very accurate remarks and I accept your argument about DVDs as well.

 

[praetoritevong]

Very.

Having finally understood what you were insinuating in that particular post, I offer my sincere apologies for having interpreted that wrongly.

However, you were rather vague and it seemed it was targeted at all who were opposing you. Still, I seek your understanding.

There were a great number in the magic community who only learned of Chris Kenner's existence after Theory11 began. For these people, Ellusionist and Theory11 - and perhaps Penguin - are the only sources for new effects. When Mr Kenner was introduced as an artist here, I felt that it was only a matter of time before TOoC became the next Trilogy. You'd start to see as many 5Speed 2.0 and Perversion v2 performances as Tivo 3.0s.

First impressions are not everything. I may have misjudged you. If I have, again, I seek your understanding for my terrible ignorance.

On a lighter note, which part of Sydney do you reside in?

All good man, no offense taken I will admit to being vague, so I apologise.

I live in the middle of the CBD. Do you happen to be around Sydney?

Majority of lay people have never seen magic tricks. At least the ones I've met while performing my street act during the summer mostly haven't seen magic. In fact, sometimes I'll introduce something like the 2CM as a trick that David Blaine does. It allows them to experience something that seems more than what it is. Meaning, they just experienced something that they might of considered as a T.V. trick as something raw, experimental, new. I don't do that for every trick, but -I- think it can build interest and it does....

As far as Kenner's material goes. I know that it won't become mainstream magic for several reasons.

1)It's not easy stuff.
2)He uses coins.
3)It requires practice!

With those reasons alone majority of the faddy, insta-trick wannabes will get discouraged from practicing. I've been working on that color changing ten routine... PussyCat...or something for about two weeks now. I won't even consider performing it for lay people yet. (arrr that sequence is annoying!)

I've reworked several of the sleights in that routine and have not necessarily made it my own, but found a way to make it fit my style.

Chances of his stuff becoming the next 2CM/ACR are slim. Majority of lay people haven't seen a magic trick. Heck, I've never really met anyone from these forums or come into close proximity of someone that performs the same stuff I do.

To make magic you're own, you need to find something in the relative of 3's I think.
Find 3 close up card tricks that you can perform very well.
Find 3 non-card effects.
Find 3 coin effects.
Create 3 routines that you can use.


Perfect these and then use them for the rest of your life. The rest of magic buying is really just for fun I think.

Some people aren't satisfied with just learning 3's which isn't necessarily a problem, but just saying. Nonetheless, despite the three criteria you've set out, I still think it will be more mainstream, simply for the following reason:

Not every one of the thousands of Tivo's have been well practiced, performed, or thought out.

Assuming people bother to learn the trick properly, then yes, technically on even the basic of difficulty alone there should be less. But there are no shortage of bad videos of tricks from The Trilogy either.

 

[Mentalizing]

Does it effect your specs reaction? No. Does it effect your reaction? yes.

Honestly it just seems like your making excuses. I love Kenner, hands down one of my fave magicians, but I think this is a really bad decision.

When I do a effect, I want to be having fun too. I'm not going to have fun doing a trick that I know thousands of other people do. Why do something every other 12 year old magician does? Yes it doesn't matter to the spectator, but it matters to me.

I don't like this statement because it is selfish and somewhat wrong in what I believe. Yes every magician wants to be unique and invent a trick that blows everybody away and you are the only one doing it, I have not invented any tricks but several variations that dramatically increase the effect.

So onto the point of why I said this Creeper. Will you be thinking about the kids in Iceland or your next door neighbor that have TOOC when you are performing? Are you more interested in what everybody else is doing rather than what you are doing and performing? Perhaps you are more interested in having exclusive effects rather than performing ones that get great reactions, even if they are remade for a larger mass

I am not degrading you or trying to put you down, but if you really think about it why should you care? If you love great reactions more than what everybody else is doing then you will purchase the book or dvds if you haven't already.

While many will not agree with Kenner on this subject, I believe that if you created something and you would like to share for the benefit of the community and not personal gain then I completely agree with you.

 

[praetoritevong]

I think the key distinction is this. YES, we perform for the pleasure of our audiences, for reactions, and our performances should always be focussed on what interests them.

But does that mean that our preferences do not matter? Of course not.

Put it this way. You can get great reactions either from unique tricks, or generic tricks, and you prefer to perform unique tricks, how does that make you selfish?

It matters because ultimately, it is still YOU who is performing magic. You putting the time in to practice, you going out there to perform. And whilst your performance will ultimately be shaped by the audience, if both choices satisfy the audience, why is it selfish to choose the one that you personally prefer?

Creeper has not, as you've insinuated, said that he's more interested in everybody else. He's merely taking a stand and defending what he personally prefers as well, and I think you're unfairly criticising him. If you're in the art of magic, you should at least enjoy it. Why should he care? Because it makes him happy. You're happy with either choice, that's fine.