The Too Perfect Theory: Wrong?

Dec 17, 2007
858
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Canada
http://www.online-visions.com/stagestuff/0805trick.html

I stumbled upon this earlier this morning. It was too good to pass up. Amidst all the links to generic YouTube videos that seem engineered to depress me, this is a link that should liven things up.

I actually agree, for the most part. I would never stop in the middle of a performance an give a disclaimer. Nor would I do a routine like brad christian or Pen and Teller and expose smaller slights to make the bigger ones look like true magic (actually thats more Pen and Teller.) With that being said I will never profess myself as a miracle worker or God. Just to strengthen the illusion, I believe that that type of deception is wrong to a certain extent. If some one asks me if I do real magic I ask them what they think, then I ask them if they enjoyed the show and I leave without ever answering their question. This way I prolong that feeling of child like astonishment that Paul Harris talks about in the begging of AoA. And that is what I call being a true magician.



-Michael
 
Aug 31, 2007
1,960
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Long Island/New York
I agree with what Rich had to say here.

Why are these magicians hinting to their audiences that they cannot do real magic? Why are so many magicians nowadays thinking they need to be honest with their audience by saying what their doing is staged or pulled off by sleight of hand?
It seems like a LOT of work for just a lost cause.

Think about it, we practice so hard to do these sleights so that their invisible, just to say, "Hey, I'm doing a secret move."
Doesn't make any sense to me.
You want people to think your a real magician, as long as you have control over your audience, everything should be fine. Don't give them time to ask you to do something impossible. Have them focus in on what's happening now.

As for a trick being too perfect, I'm not sure I agree with this.
I believe every effect has potential to be a killer if it involves logic.

Ex. Card gets picked, put back, disappears out of the deck, and appears on the other side of a nearby window. Yeah, it looks cool, but there has to be a reason why it's there. Throw the cards at the window or something giving a great illusion. (snapping your fingers doesn't work well)

Ex.2 A corner of a card gets ripped off and vanishes. It's then found in an ice cube in someone's drink. If you do it like that, it makes no sense and screams set-up. However if you play it out, saying how you froze time to get the corner to disappear out of your hands, it makes sense to have it in an ice cube.

So by too perfect, you mean impossible because you were all the way on the other side of the room and a card appears in the window across the room? If yes then you'll get reactions, but I'd say that perfect trick would just ruin for what that trick's full potential could reach.
 
Nov 1, 2008
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The Too Perfect theory is well known and understood by, I'd say, all master magician performers... Vernon, Jennings, Ortiz etc all have thoughts on this very valid theory. I think you folks, and Rich, are missing the point here.

The Too Perfect theory doesn't refer to magic being too GOOD or too STRONG it refers to blatantly and obviously impossible circumstances especially in conjunction with weak presentation.

Take as an example - do a double lift, show a 6H, turn down, now do a single and show an Ace. Whoaaa magic or just a bit too perfect? You gave the audience nothing for their brains to accept as the cause for the magic.

Now if you did a double, turned down, then cast a shadow over the deck and a turned a single showing a change - thats NOT too perfect. You have added time-misdirection, a Moment of Magic, and hopefully a sprinkle of showmanship.

The Moment of Magic idea is something that is important here too s it's related. The idea that we need to give the audience a WHEN for when the magic occurred. Since hopefully your sleights are invisible and the only thing for the spectators to see is your presentation ... at what point should should the magic have happend? Snapped your fingers? Ran the cards through your hand? Cast a shadow? Those are all Moment of Magic indicators

t
 
May I ask a question that's been playing all over my head? I really don't get this.

How can an effect that leads to suspicion be perfect, or any negative undesired result, be perfect, let alone TOO perfect?

I really don't get all this talk about the "too perfect" theory. If there is a flaw, of any kind, in effect, method, presentation, theater, anything, doesn't this render the effect imperfect?

I dunno man .. Off to my Tivo 2.PIEE, version 2.25-RX-71

Cheers,
 
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Feb 9, 2009
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As was mentioned, the Too Perfect theory isn't about if the trick is actually so clean that it removes all doubt, it is about how it sold. I don't go for the whole casting a shadow or anything like it, though. To each his own. The magical moment can be expressed in a multitude of ways.

I do find it can be beneficial to create doubt. Penn and Teller, Derren Brown, Chan Canasta and me others are proof of this. Pseudo explanations, and even minor exposure, can create a real sense of pure astonishment. Talking about the fact that you use sleight of hand, if done with purpose and direction, can elevate your performance.

When I perform my ACR, I discuss sleight of hand with the audience well before I go into the first phase. The first phase has two parts. Each of those moments accentuate the possibility of sleight of hand, but done cleanly enough that they have no idea what was done. The second phase is clear and precise, yet with a hint of confusion so that they still revert to sleight of hand. The third and final phase (that's right, only three phases) is so impossible, so apparently hands off, that their mind has no explanation to escape to; it is magic.

I have attempted this routine many ways. This is by far the most powerful. Bringing sleight of hand to the forefront relaxes them and enables barriers to be dropped. They feel more comfortable and at ease. And then I slowly block off each path of escape. Or rather, I let them block off each path of escape on their own. I have just scripted and structured the routine in such a way to lead them there.

A great visual aid to learn brilliant use of deception that everyone can immediately access is the show Lost. You don't have to like the actual show to learn from it. The fact is that they are constantly setting things up, making you think a certain thing and snatching it away to create a unique experience on your psyche.

I do agree that, unless used to further the magic, we have no reason to give disclaimers. I thought the maxim was, "a magician never reveals." Disclaimers, unless it is part of your actual act and persona, are a specific and ambiguous type of exposure. If I wanted to play the part of a genuine mind reader, I have absolutely no obligation to honestly answer the question of whether what I do is real or not. If I am not swindling people and taking their money under complete false claims, no one else should try to out me either. If all I am doing is entertaining, nothing is wrong. If I'm talking to someone's deceased mother, that's a different story, but if all I am doing is telling a person who they are thinking of and playing it as real, where is the harm in that?

If your argument is that I am furthering the belief in psychics, give me a break. People will believe what they want to believe. One of the first card tricks I ever performed was 'Out of Sight, Out of Mind.' Some people took it as a fantastic card trick, some people took it as mind reading despite me repeatedly telling them that I didn't. Many "witches" were burned alive or hung from trees even after explaining how they actually accomplished their magic. People belief what they want to belief. You can argue psychics, magic, God and Love all day everyday, but no one will truly hear you unless they choose to. If they choose to, they are already in alignment with you.

One quick note on the quote, "None of us can do real magic."

Nothing could be further from the truth. Each and every one of us creates real magic on a daily basis. And I mean each and every single one of us, not just magicians. We aren't creating astonishment, we are creating a moment to allow a person to fall back into it. That moment can be created in numerous ways. I had it just last week by watching a low laying cloud.
 
Apr 8, 2008
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For me, if I'll ever create a magic act, I WILL tell them my purpose, and that it is to amaze them. I'll say "You may not believe what I am doing now is truly magical, but just wait and see, and for once, believe in what you see, and you will amaze at how much fun you can get out of this. That's my purpose."

=]
But I don't think revealing anything from a trick is good, or saying that it is "just" a trick, or that it is not real. Oh no, it's very real, it's YOUR responsibility as a magician to tell them that it is REAL, to convince them.
 

Lex

Dec 18, 2007
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Chicago, IL
Discussing sleights of hand can also be a great way of using an audience's logic against it. It's Magician's Judo, in a sense.

The audience's logic is the knot the magician is trying to slip through--and the magician has to know, going in, how tight that knot is. If it's an audience of kids, honestly, the knot may not be too tight at all. But if it's a handful of cynical curmudgeons or over-it socialites, the knot is tighter: these are the folks who would love to catch a magician in the act.

For a tough audience like this second group, one technique that is available is to use their logic against them. Let them in on one or two tricks of the trade (that it happens, not necessarily how).

Wayne Houchin does a nice Invisible Palm routine on the Control video based on this idea. It's for a small group of folks who are familiar enough with magic to know, at some level, that it includes sleights, including palming. So by discussing palming openly, Wayne raised his credibility with the (small private show) audience by seeming to bring them a little "inside." (Never underestimate the power of making your audience think that you are letting them in on a little secret. You can make the boldest lie after that and it will often be taken as true.) That allowed him to pull off a beautiful Invisible Palm routine: armed with the new knowledge they had, the audience watched him move cards around and still couldn't figure out how he did it. He handed them a new logical tool--palming--then gave them a trick to apply it to. Of course the new tool didn't work--he had done something completely different--so their circuits fried. He used his audience's logic against it.

This is why the narrative is so important in presenting a trick. If the narrative is logical, the audience will be able to accept that as determinative--and the magician can use anything the audience has accepted as determinative. That is what allows the magician to slip through the knot of logic.

"You've picked a card freely. (Actually, I forced it on you.) Signed it. (No, you signed a gaff.) Pushed it into the middle of the deck. (Well, that was really a random card.) Here, I'll spread the cards out for you and you can still see it. (That's really the actual card, not the gaff you signed.) I'll shuffle the cards. (But not completely.) And hand them to you to shuffle. (All but the important one, actually.) But by just waving my hand over the deck the top card changes into yours. (By virtue of a Color Change.) And if you watch closely as I wave the deck around, your card is now on the bottom. (Another Color Change.) Which is really strange because I seem to have something in my eye . . . . (?????)"

To the audience, the story outside the parentheses follows logically up until the first Color Change: they know where the card is and the story is consistent. After that, the magician has slipped the knot and the audience knows its (previously unassailable) logic is wrong. By making the knot seem very tight up until then, the audience is all the more astonished when it gives.

And notice, if you were to narrate the whole trick as above, including the material in parentheses, it would also make sense to the audience and completely reveal the routine. Until the last sentence, that is, but that wouldn't even make sense to any magician until Thread or iVanish is adapted for a card.

Gaining credibility with an audience by seeming to bring them a little on the "inside" is a great way to use the audience's logic as a weapon against it. This technique is more useful for some audiences than others. (For kids, for instance, I would think that it might not work well at all. They are not quite as wedded to clean rules of logic as adults are, and are perfectly willing to assume that your flawless Invisible Palm routine is a result of a very quiet vacuum cleaner.)
 
Nov 1, 2008
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Then why is it frequently used as an argument as if the opposite were true?

My guess is because people don't really take the time to read and understand new concepts before they get on some forum and start telling people their well considered thoughts about them.

Myself, I'd say "too perfect" may be a misnomer, but it's a concept that doesn't offer a quick name that I can think of.

(BTW I don't like cast a shadow deal either - just a common language meme for the MoM)

Read Darwin Ortiz's book - Strong Magic. Beware ellusionist fanboys there are no tricks in this book. It's about presentational psychology and structure as well as how to structure your effects to truly astonish. Darwin is not my favorite performer of all time but this might be the most important book on the subject you will ever read.

t
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
Read Darwin Ortiz's book - Strong Magic. Beware ellusionist fanboys there are no tricks in this book. It's about presentational psychology and structure as well as how to structure your effects to truly astonish. Darwin is not my favorite performer of all time but this might be the most important book on the subject you will ever read.

Actually, I have not read the book, but I'm no stranger to performance theory. I've diligently studied the works of Eugene Burger, had extensive conversations with Rick Maue and other working pros, and also spent time as an actor. A find myself recommending Stanislovski's "An Actor Prepares" over most books on magic, as a matter of fact.
 
Nov 1, 2008
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Actually, I have not read the book, but I'm no stranger to performance theory. I've diligently studied the works of Eugene Burger, had extensive conversations with Rick Maue and other working pros, and also spent time as an actor. A find myself recommending Stanislovski's "An Actor Prepares" over most books on magic, as a matter of fact.

Well then I commend you for taking the time to put presentation into your magic. More of our community should do so! Burger has one of the most incredible presentational styles I can think of - a true performer whether showing a magic effect or telling a story. A few others that come to mind.. Ricky Jay, Rene Lavand and Max Maven.

Have you ever seen Rene Lavand work? I imagine so - but worth saying.. wow! His style is one that I try hard to learn from.

t
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
Have you ever seen Rene Lavand work? I imagine so - but worth saying.. wow! His style is one that I try hard to learn from.

Can't say as I have, though I also have to admit that I base most of my style on literature and film instead of other magicians and mentalists.
 
Nov 1, 2008
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Can't say as I have, though I also have to admit that I base most of my style on literature and film instead of other magicians and mentalists.

Just a note - I said LEARN from, not base my style on or even emulate. Just an important point of fact there.
 
Feb 9, 2009
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Maybe because they haven't actually read Al Schneider's essays and have only assumed what it about from what he named it. I mean, come on, it's from the creator of Matrix. That's an extremely clean effect. His point is to give justification, give some theatrical framing, create an experience.

Just going out and doing a trick can get good reactions, but it won't create a moment of astonishment. You know those people that react by screaming and running around? If you can get them to freeze in silence and stare first, that is the moment of astonishment. You have to open them up to that.

Something to consider is that this "leading to the rabbit hole" isn't needed for every effect. I'm going to keep my Ambitious Card Routine as the example. It's my opener and starts off conversational. I start by talking on sleight of hand, something everyone in this modern world has heard of. It then progresses into more and more impossible things, using my narrative to keep them following me down that rabbit hole. Now they are where I want them to be and are fully enveloped in the reality that I want them to be in. Anything I perform after this are things I don't want to have a real narrative. Say it's done in a style similar to what Blaine would do. More of a "watch this" type of thing, and so they watch and fully accept what happens. If I did one of these effects first, it would be "too perfect" and, while they would enjoy it, the reactions wouldn't be near as powerful. By first using effects that have a false explanation, something that is hands off, and/or happens in their hands, it will slowly allow them to open up and allow a full acceptance of the impossible.

If you happen to perform for the same group of people at a later date, you wouldn't need to follow this rule. You've opened them up already. Next time they see you, they jump down the rabbit hole on their own well before you even greet them. You can jump right into the impossible.

If there are people in the group that you haven't performed for yet, you can ask if they've heard of you. If they haven't, make up an excuse to leave for a moment. By the time you come back, they'll have heard about you. They won't yet be in the rabbit hole, but they'll be ready to go. You can start with something a little less impossible and more improbable to warm them up, or just jump straight to the impossible. The reactions of their friends that have seen you previously are usually more than enough to lead them the rest of the way for the remainder of your routine.

There are, of course, exceptions to all of this. I already mentioned that seemingly hands off magic and things that happen in their own hands are good ways to lead them in. As are effects that use borrowed objects. "But I held it so it must be!" "It was my ring so it must be!" "He didn't even touch it!" All of my openers are either based on these rules, uses a narrative written to lead them, or something that naturally forces them to deduce how it was done, such as a multiple phase card under glass. Using CUG as another example, they don't need a real narrative. They understand I am possibly palming the card and that I am definitely using misdirection. They supply their own reasoning by using the most obvious explanation. How and when it happens doesn't need to be exact, they are comfortable enough with having the logical answer to fall back on. But when that card appears inside of something, they don't quite know what to think. And when that card is torn to pieces only to be restored, their mind accepts the impossible.

And so on and so forth, etc.

Best,
John
 
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Feb 9, 2009
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Steerpike,

Good to hear that someone else gets inspiration from film and literature as well. I actually just posted something on E suggesting just that.

Also, I have experience with Meisner, who is in close relation to Stanislovski. They actually worked together in creating their methods, each taking a different route in the long run. I find I use a combination of both techniques but enjoy Meisner's overall.

PS. I just looked up on wiki if they worked together, as I've only ever heard that. They didn't really go into it on there, so just take that as hearsay. I don't feel like looking up anymore than that right now.
 
Jan 30, 2009
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First off, I love this thread. Second, there is no black and white, right or wrong, perfect answer to this. It is an art form personalized by the artiest. Your presentation is ment only to give the best possible entertainment value. Your personal arsenal of tricks might call for a more magical style, and it could call for a more real world touch.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
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Also, I have experience with Meisner, who is in close relation to Stanislovski. They actually worked together in creating their methods, each taking a different route in the long run. I find I use a combination of both techniques but enjoy Meisner's overall.

I find myself leaning ever so slightly toward Lee Strasburg, personally. I think this is indicative of my slowly decaying sanity.

Nevertheless, I recommend Stanislovski to magicians because it's the first modern book on acting as a craft and remains an integral text on performance theory. If one is going to quote Robert-Houdin, then it's important to actually know what acting entails.

That said, let me make a quick qualifying statement. My opinions of the Too-Perfect Theory are somewhat colored by Jamy Swiss's use of it and the subsequent imitation of that use by nearly everyone who read his essay on street magic. His logic in that point never really connected in my mind, and it still baffles me why he said what he did today.
 
Sep 3, 2007
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First off: My opinion is that Derren Brown's trick in an Evening of Wonders with the scroll was too perfect. The pure, no bs predictions would've made the audience scream "STOOGES!" for any other performer.

But this shows you that through his reputation and credibility, Derren Brown can get away with almost anything.

Back on topic:

a trick that is too perfect:
is a poorly structure routine without
proper framing (to change the way that the audience perceives the trick, further obscuring the method)
conditions (to show that all possible explanations are impossible)

a too perfect trick points to only one solution through its discrepancy (stooges, gaffs, sleight of hand), a magic trick leaves no solution

If in Jamy Ian Swiss's example of "the instantaneous jamming of a pen or finger through a metal coin, leaving a jagged hole behind" was properly routined it could be magic. (quoted from here http://www.antinomymagic.com/swiss.htm)

Imagine if someone came up to you, showed you that both their hands were empty, their sleeves rolled up, and they borrowed a quarter from you never touching it just letting you hold it on your outstretched palm. Then suddenly, they jab their finger thru the center of the coin, wriggle it around and pull it leaving behind a hole? (with a suiting presentation of course)

Would that be amazing?
 
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