To Everybody creating "new" effects.

[Justin.Morris]

You make a great point here, but I'll tell you the problem with it mainly with youngsters.

More than likely they won't develop any sort of real creative process with this just starting off. It's highly uncommon to find someone who is just creative naturally and just comes up with things on the spot with little revision needed.

The way they are starting off by learning some sleights and then just moving cards around with sleights used in different ways isn't the right way to start off. Let it come to you, this is the best starting point because it opens up the creative process for you now.

Once you learn what a great idea feels like, looks like, and how it came about you then you can truly "try" to come up with effects. This doesn't mean you show every effect that you come up with now, you don't want to be Sankey in this and release so much crap that people just won't trust your material.

Build off of what you know now and believe good things will come, it may be in a hurry or you may stall out and take awhile before something comes, but something will come.

Two side notes here, one about the quote, the people that come up with tons of crappy ideas are usually paid for this type of work no? Quite often it isn't crap, it's just that it needs elaboration which isn't what companies advertising want. They want catchy slogans and phrases and things that can hook the listener quickly.

The second is about Sankey, I dislike much of his material because it's just variations on so many old things. Some of the old things are not very good in the first place or his variations don't improve on an already great effect.

I recently received 22 blows to the Head and so much of the actual material was just a magician showing how little he really understands about mentalism. I am not calling myself an expert on the subject, however I do understand a thing or two and listening to him just annoys me.

He could be so amazing with his creations, but he doesn't sit back and rework his material and fully appreciate it. He sells w/e people will buy, and in this case just a hit or miss buy. He has some great thoughts, yet still comes out with some material that is pretty much just crap from the beginning or like you said just gems he didn't polish because he was working on his latest effect.

I don't know about "just letting it come to you" though. Perhaps this is too ambiguous. What would be bad about figuring out a method to an idea? Or what is bad about showing people your ideas, good or bad? What harm is done from learning that way? Is it just the annoyance of reading " I created a new sleight!" and people replying "no you didn't. that's called the double lift"? I do agree you shouldn't market every garbage idea like it's the perfect trick, but I would submit that there is very little harm in learning by trying out new things. Sometimes you learn something, practice it a ton, then show it to a few people, and they are not impressed. You figure out what was wrong and work it out. And if you reinvent the Marlo tilt, then so be it. What harm is done? Why is that a bad way to learn?

And using Google as an example again; when they collaborate on a project for example, they will toss a lot of bad ideas from a lot of people, until they get one that is workable, and yes they still pay all those who gave bad ideas, because tomorrow, they may have a good one.

 

[Sherlock]

Again the main part of my post is overlooked or something. I am not against creating but the way the kids go about it is completely wrong. They will develop some bad habits from this I'm sure.

What it sounds like you are saying is that it's okay if they mess around and somehow create a new sleight but yet its already made up. That's cool this is of course messing around and just fiddling with cards, which is again something I said was perfectly fine.

However trying to create the process is not something that will lead you very far in most cases. There's just something unique you need to have to truly try to create an effect and get something amazing out of it. Most of these kids shouldn't be trying to invent anyways, work on their card sleights or w/e type of stuff they do. Maybe throw away the freaking camera and go out and perform for real people.

Look at the youngin Jeff Prace, the kid has really come up with something great with the Gum DvD. I don't know how he came up with it and he may have done it by doing exactly what I'm recommending against. However there are always exceptions like I've been talking about, and he is certainly one of them.

I do not own Gum or plan to since it doesn't fit my mentalism style. I could possibly use orbit for a suggestion patter that would kill but that's a maybe still. Jeff is part of the rare crowd that just has a creative mind in magic, not necessarily just creative in art or advertising but this thing we perform called magic.

It's something you don't necessarily get, but rather something that you just have. Same thing with people like Usain Bolt, I know his training regiment is tough and hardcore, but as the same with Michael Phelps he has a body that is gifted towards that which he does. You can't grow taller or have longer feet, arms, an odd flexibility in the joints. Stuff like this is just the gift of nature giving some select people remarkable talents.

 

[RealityOne]

Well by the sound of it, you need to swallow your pride and get over the fact that you use other people's material.

Agreed. There are so many excellent effects and routines out there. Take one of them, learn it until you have it down perfect and then put your own imprint on it using your own patter and presentation.

Unless you only perform for magicians, your audience isn't going to say "that was a version of Dai Vernon's Twisting the Aces, I thought I was going to get something original."

However trying to create the process is not something that will lead you very far in most cases. There's just something unique you need to have to truly try to create an effect and get something amazing out of it. Most of these kids shouldn't be trying to invent anyways, work on their card sleights or w/e type of stuff they do. Maybe throw away the freaking camera and go out and perform for real people.

Think of it this way... how many effects and routines could you learn in the time it takes you to invent (or in most cases reinvent) an effect? Why waste your time trying to create something when you could be learning multiple effects. At the end of the day, which do you think is going to make you a better magician?

Actually, most of these inventions aren't even effects... they are individual slights, usually color changes. In most cases the creators haven't worked them into a routine or ever performed them for a live audience. If they are effects, they are like Sherlock said, a disjointed combination of slights thrown together for no apparent purpose usually with no patter or presentation.

My advice, learn as many slights, effects and routines as you can. Practice, perfect and perform each routine before moving on. If along the way you create something, thats great.

The point of Sherlock's original post is don't FOCUS on creating, focus on learning, practicing and performing.

 

[tman93]

Again the main part of my post is overlooked or something. I am not against creating but the way the kids go about it is completely wrong. They will develop some bad habits from this I'm sure.

What it sounds like you are saying is that it's okay if they mess around and somehow create a new sleight but yet its already made up. That's cool this is of course messing around and just fiddling with cards, which is again something I said was perfectly fine.

However trying to create the process is not something that will lead you very far in most cases. There's just something unique you need to have to truly try to create an effect and get something amazing out of it. Most of these kids shouldn't be trying to invent anyways, work on their card sleights or w/e type of stuff they do. Maybe throw away the freaking camera and go out and perform for real people.

Look at the youngin Jeff Prace, the kid has really come up with something great with the Gum DvD. I don't know how he came up with it and he may have done it by doing exactly what I'm recommending against. However there are always exceptions like I've been talking about, and he is certainly one of them.

I do not own Gum or plan to since it doesn't fit my mentalism style. I could possibly use orbit for a suggestion patter that would kill but that's a maybe still. Jeff is part of the rare crowd that just has a creative mind in magic, not necessarily just creative in art or advertising but this thing we perform called magic.

It's something you don't necessarily get, but rather something that you just have. Same thing with people like Usain Bolt, I know his training regiment is tough and hardcore, but as the same with Michael Phelps he has a body that is gifted towards that which he does. You can't grow taller or have longer feet, arms, an odd flexibility in the joints. Stuff like this is just the gift of nature giving some select people remarkable talents.

Hey Sherlock. I appreciate you posting this as I now understand what you're trying to articulate correctly. Now listen, if you were as a young magician capable of having that unique energy, I completely get where you're coming from, but I don't feel you are actually looking from the perspective of a young magician. It seems that you feel that most "generic" young and new magicians will create material blindly, which is completely true. Most young magicians do not yet have the understanding for the large amount of time that needs to be invested in research of sleights and the art itself in order to create a new and good effect. Thus, I feel that rather than just telling all of the kids out there that it is a unique ability, we can support them by seeing the material they've created, even if it is repetition. Most of magic is based on repetition.

There is a reason certain artists were capable of creating effects that were new and creative, and that is because they were around people that could mentor them and give them the guidance to understand what is needed in order to create a good effect. This is what we are at theory11. A community of magicians who support each other (old or young, new or practiced) in furthering our craft. Or at least that is what I hope we are.

Thanks,
Tyler

 

[Holyshnikes]

A while back I decided I wantd to put some of my own effects that I have into a written form. I had a bunch of ideas that I wanted to archive for my own use, and eventually, maybe even sell. Before I did so, I emailed Lee Asher. His response, was some of the best advice I have ever recieved. I see it in two other ways in regards to your post Sherlock. 1. Don't create to sell. 2. Keep some of your ideas to yourself. If you are posting videos of effects that you have created, and you want them to be your own, you are opening the door to others getting similar ideas.

Hi Nathan,

Thanks for emailing. It's awesome to hear that you're inspired to create and move magic forward.

If I can give you a tip, which I wish more people would hear -- dont invent to sell. If you're trying to create for the sake of money, the trick will ALWAYS SUCK!

With that said, get yourself a notebook and start writing down all your ideas. Make lists, illustrations - whatever it takes to put your thoughts on paper. Date everything.

Every time you have an idea, write it in your notebook. Fill it up, and get a new one. Fill that one up, and get a new one. Keep doing it until you have LOTS of material in a bunch of notebooks.

Also, you need to go out and perfect the certain pieces that are the strongest of your ideas in your notebooks. Perform them over and over, changing patter lines and methods. Do everything to 'test' your piece in the real word. Make it solid!

Then, and only then, should you go about trying to market it for sale. Again, I wish more people would do that with their material. It helps them, and the art of magic more.



Problem: "I don't know if the ideas have been done before."



For now though, the best way to help you is not to feed you, rather teach you how to fend for yourself.

The first thing you want to know about is the classification of effects.
http://geniimagazine.com/wiki/index.php/Effect_Classification

(cut and paste if not clickable)


You will quickly realize, it's VERY difficult to invent a new effect. I am not saying it can't be done, it's just highly unlikely.

However, it now falls down to Plot, Method, and Handling.

Do you have an original plot?
Do you have an original method?
Do you have an original handling?

These are things you need to think about. You need to figure out if you were influenced from other pieces of magic, and if so - hunt down those roots.

Search as many magic forums, bbs, blogs, etc you can. Any information is important in the gathering process.

This is not an easy process, but it's a lot of fun. You learn a lot along the way. Sometimes, you might not even find what you originally set out to find. And sometimes, you miss things.

Once you have everything, you make your decisions.

Hope that helps some.

This has since changed my entire mindset on what I wanted to do. Take this advice and run with it.

 

[jprace]

Look at the youngin Jeff Prace, the kid has really come up with something great with the Gum DvD. I don't know how he came up with it and he may have done it by doing exactly what I'm recommending against. However there are always exceptions like I've been talking about, and he is certainly one of them.

I do not own Gum or plan to since it doesn't fit my mentalism style. I could possibly use orbit for a suggestion patter that would kill but that's a maybe still. Jeff is part of the rare crowd that just has a creative mind in magic, not necessarily just creative in art or advertising but this thing we perform called magic.

Hey Sherlock -

I really appreciate your kind comments on my magic!
Thanks a lot!

Thanks,
Jeff Prace

 

[industrialchild]

Yeah, JP I have to say this to you also, I made this lovely couple go cross-eyed just the other day from doing you're "No More Card Tricks" trick. That one trick was worth more than the 10 dollars I spent on that Reel Magic issue. I am very pleased with it, so visual! Even though I don't use your presentation for it, it freakin' kills! That's one of the things I admire about you to, you're not afraid to be yourself when you perform for the public and that's really refreshing to see.

Sincerely,
David

 

[canadamagic]

I have said this in other post and I will say it again so please no one take this in any offensive way.

I think that everyone here has a great point to each side. I admit that I do get annoyed of the "I just created a new fantastic trick" post and it really gets under my skin when people try to take credit for others work. But I can see how this can be a mistake and not an intentional way of stealing anothers light. People learn magic in different ways and if putting together a bunch of moves to create an effect may be the way than so be it. I don't see what the problem is with people doing that, ask a professional magician. This is a fantastic way to see what effects or slights will work well with another. There isn't really a big deal in people doing this.

It is (in my mind) rude to "bash" on another person because they think they have created an original effect and you haaave to point out everything that the person has done wrong. I think that this is the height of rude and as we have all heard of, "If you don't have anything nice to say, than don't say anything at all". I can easily see where constuctive critacisim can come into play and it is a great thing when used properly, but there is a thin line between being constructive and ignorant. People are going to be doing this for a long time but there isn't anything to do about it but help them along the way instead of becoming annoyed.

Again, I am not trying to offend anyone, but if I have I am sorry, that is my opinion.

 

[Sherlock]

I have said this in other post and I will say it again so please no one take this in any offensive way.

I think that everyone here has a great point to each side. I admit that I do get annoyed of the "I just created a new fantastic trick" post and it really gets under my skin when people try to take credit for others work. But I can see how this can be a mistake and not an intentional way of stealing anothers light. People learn magic in different ways and if putting together a bunch of moves to create an effect may be the way than so be it. I don't see what the problem is with people doing that, ask a professional magician. This is a fantastic way to see what effects or slights will work well with another. There isn't really a big deal in people doing this.

It is (in my mind) rude to "bash" on another person because they think they have created an original effect and you haaave to point out everything that the person has done wrong. I think that this is the height of rude and as we have all heard of, "If you don't have anything nice to say, than don't say anything at all". I can easily see where constuctive critacisim can come into play and it is a great thing when used properly, but there is a thin line between being constructive and ignorant. People are going to be doing this for a long time but there isn't anything to do about it but help them along the way instead of becoming annoyed.

Again, I am not trying to offend anyone, but if I have I am sorry, that is my opinion.

Well then you have missed the ENTIRE point of my thread and for that you should reread it to verify what I am about to write.

My advice is actually for the creativity of magicians, but not the way that magicians are going about it. Do you think some of the greatest effects came about from trying to work a whole bunch of sleights together or do you believe that one day it just hit them? Creativity isn't necessarily just for a select few but the great effects come from the same great names for a reason.

You seem a bit young and that's part of the reason you are missing the points in this. Yes I am a bit annoyed by the constant posting of "my new effect" but it certainly is the fuel for the fire. I just want to see better effects, people raising the bar on what they perform and what they create.

Who pointed out every single thing wrong with effects, because I certainly could tell you what's not just wrong with effects that the young magicians create but also some of the effects great minds have come up with. I'm talking about things you perform and really like to that go by, but I could nitpick things.

If I am incorrect in your age then you certainly have a narrow mind in all of this. Not every single thing needs to be pointed out for people to share their thoughts, you need to use your mind and truly understand what people are talking about. Of course this is if you are an older chap.

Again not being rude just talking about my opinion.

 

[Justin.Morris]

Again the main part of my post is overlooked or something. I am not against creating but the way the kids go about it is completely wrong. They will develop some bad habits from this I'm sure.

Well then you have missed the ENTIRE point of my thread and for that you should reread it to verify what I am about to write.

My advice is actually for the creativity of magicians, but not the way that magicians are going about it.

I think perhaps you are confusing a few people. What I hear you saying overall, is that you think creative people just are creative and new ideas just come to them, and you think it is wrong, or at lease not helpful to reverse engineer an effect or to think of new ideas on purpose.

If that is close, I still disagree. I think it's a both and, not an either or.

You seem a bit young and that's part of the reason you are missing the points in this....
If I am incorrect in your age then you certainly have a narrow mind in all of this....
Again not being rude just talking about my opinion.

I have no idea how old you are, but you are really condescending. It's not a very flattering trait.

 

[Cedric Taylor]

This is not bashing anybody in anyway but more of how I see this sort of thing right now by many younger magicians.

Many of the new threads coming up and posting a vid of this "new" effect is getting a bit old. I see so many young people performing effects that just randomly use a few different sleights together to get something "new." The reason for the quotation marks is because that even though it may not have been published I'm sure a number of magicians have come up with something quite similar.

I believe it would be best to chill out on all of this, mainly to help you and help the community a bit. Not saying don't create material necessarily but stop trying to create it. So many of you try so hard to put sleights together in a mix of turning over cards and clipshifting them to the top and some other nonsense. This isn't how the really great effects are brought to the eye of magic community.

Slow down on rushing on creating material isn't healthy for your magic in any sort of way. You essentially come up with mediocre things that don't have any zing or any real punch behind it. Again if something like an idea pops in your head on something that would look very cool then write it down and work on it, but don't just try to create because forcing it never makes it looks pretty.

Work on other peoples material and find about sleights and effects rarely seen and used by the magic world. Some sleights I have seen and other methods that are very useless in some effects could go very well using them in a much different way to accomplish something very different. Practice this if anything.

Practice the cool stuff that you find interesting from some big names or a nice little magic book you are getting for the holidays. Work on things that are tried and proven to work in many settings. Get an idea of what works and why it does, because throwing together stuff isn't going to cut it.

So to end it and sum it up in case anybody tries to put words in my mouth. I'm not saying stop creating but instead stop trying to create material that is just a bunch of nonsense piled up on top of each other. Practice other things to get creative juices flowing, let it come naturally through a dream, through a accident, something.

While I'm sure quite a few people disagree, there are a few exceptions. Mainly flourishing, or cardistry, w/e people are calling spinning the cards and calling art. That's something you can actually try out and try to work sleights together, I don't really consider anything like this art for quite a few reasons but I'll hold back on that rant today.

I first would like to apologize to the originator of this thread, i initially thought it was a discouring thread...after taking the time to read it....i agree...i do have some things to add though......

for anyone out there thats trying to create, trying to build on complex effect by artist such as the Theory 11 creators will not cut it...no put down to them, but a lot of what they do are variations of whats already out there.....

so if i was you guys i would do this:

take very simple effect done before your time, and work on ways of making those effects...in other words, take simple magic and work your way up....take a normal acr, and add moves....

take a card stab, or card through window, (basic ones) and try and better those....

take a rabbitt out of the hat and try and better that...

the originator of this thread has some valid points and i myself am a vital supporter of what what stated....

 

[Sherlock]

I think perhaps you are confusing a few people. What I hear you saying overall, is that you think creative people just are creative and new ideas just come to them, and you think it is wrong, or at lease not helpful to reverse engineer an effect or to think of new ideas on purpose.

If that is close, I still disagree. I think it's a both and, not an either or.




I have no idea how old you are, but you are really condescending. It's not a very flattering trait.

You are barely in the ballpark, I don't think it's wrong to necessarily think of new ideas on purpose, the way people go about it is wrong.

I do apologize, I can get a bit immature at times and canadamagic's post were getting me a bit annoyed.

 

[canadamagic]

You are barely in the ballpark, I don't think it's wrong to necessarily think of new ideas on purpose, the way people go about it is wrong.

I do apologize, I can get a bit immature at times and canadamagic's post were getting me a bit annoyed.

As I had said and I will say again, I apologize if I have offended, aggrivate, or annoyed anyone, it was not my intentions to do so and I apologize.

 

[jprace]

Yeah, JP I have to say this to you also, I made this lovely couple go cross-eyed just the other day from doing you're "No More Card Tricks" trick. That one trick was worth more than the 10 dollars I spent on that Reel Magic issue. I am very pleased with it, so visual! Even though I don't use your presentation for it, it freakin' kills! That's one of the things I admire about you to, you're not afraid to be yourself when you perform for the public and that's really refreshing to see.

Sincerely,
David

David,

Thanks a lot! I like that card routine a lot. I'm glad you got some use out of it!

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[descartes]

I came into this discussion too late, but for what its worth, I think the OP's point is much better made by Whit Haydn in his essay "Against Originality in Magic"

Please, click on that link and read what Whit Haydn has to say. These are words of wisdom from a stellar performer and a great magical thinker.