'Real' Magic

[Simon_Magic]

Heya Guys!

When we look at Magic currently, the famous Magicians on the TV and so forth are all doing what people would consider Magic 'Tricks'. However, do we think these Magicians would have a greater impact on the Magic industry if they performed 'Real' Magic, and what do we perceive as real Magic?

Jeff McBride I know is a great believer in implementing parts of real Magic into his act; the ritualism, playing with the elements that kind of thing. I personally came into Magic from learning basic tricks but with a Tarot deck of cards, which changed the entire feel of the trick into something really magical.

If there was a Magician on Television now, do you think that if he created water from nothing, got blood out of a stone, did simple tricks with Tarot cards, would people refer to him as a 'Real' Magician as apposed to a trickster just because of his change of props and angle? Would he suddenly get a cult following of believers? Would people think he was the next Jesus? Or would society cast him out for playing with the occult and 'angering the spirits'.

Uri Geller created a phenomenon with his spoon bending trick, which he is absolutely adamant is real, and is not an illusion. Who are we to say that he really doesn't have that power? Of course we as Magicians know better, but from just doing that simple trick, Uri became one of the best known players in Magic, and yet he is not known as being a Magician. If somebody nowadays did the same sort of thing, would they be classed as a Magician, or something else entirely because the audience and the performer both believe in their minds that what is happening is real.

So what are your thoughts? Should Magicians only perform tricks as tricks, or should occasionally, we do something that people could conceive as being real..?

Simon_Magic

 

[TeeDee]

Some of the most successful magicians have blurred the line between reality and illusion. In the nineteenth century, some illusionists pretended they'd mastered some interesting and little-understood phenomenon of magnetism or electricity. Houdini's performances suggested he had an innate skill which enabled him to escape from anything. Derren Brown suggests that his effects might be the result of a deep understanding of psychology.

I think that if a magician nowadays went too far, and turned up in wizard's robes with a bubbling cauldron, they'd just be laughed at. On the other hand, they could probably appeal to quantum entanglement or Rupert Sheldrake's research into telepathy as an almost-plausible defence of the supernatural. It's about finding the line between what an educated, intelligent person knows and understands, and pushing that just to a point just before credibility snaps.

 

[Craig Browning]

When he was counseling with his PR company David Blaine was faced with finding a handful of historic figures to model himself off of; two of the three he chose were Buddha and Jesus. David was one of the first to have the guts to introduce the idea of the Urban Shaman to the magic world. It's not a new idea, we just grew away from it in the western culture; it's been quite alive and well throughout the eastern aspects of society.

In the U.S. Canada and parts of Europe there is a very quiet underground that has taken this concept and is deliberately reviving the way of the shaman -- a magical personage that blurs the lines in a way that boarder line charlatanism. Again, look at how people react to Blaine; kissing his hands, asking him to bless their children, etc. But then you come to guys like Jerome Finley, Jeff McBride, Eugene Burger and a long list of others who have literally been indoctrinated into several "Pagan" traditions and shamanic paths. Jerome, myself and others tend to work far more doing classes, lectures, readings, and "healings" than we do working shows. At that many of the shows we do don't fit the normal idea of "a show", for me at least it tends to be along the lines of storytelling and giving a magical experience by evoking the imagination of those gathered; maybe teach them how to make clouds appear or vanish or how to "read" the clouds by the animal shapes they turn into.

Magic and Science work well together, they always have been one and apart of the same thing. What we've forgotten however, is how to turn off our analytical mind and give ourselves permission to see and experience "real" magick and in so doing help others in that same discovery. It's a different kind of "trickery" you might say, but it is part of the shaman or wizard's arsenal just the same.

When we start looking at or talking about this sort of stuff the naysayer and cynics won't be far behind scream that such stuff is immoral and other such rantings. Truth of the matter is, the Moral or Immoral nature of such things comes from the individual doing the work; if it is not your nature to take unfair advantage of others, you wont! But the converse is also true as is the fact that temptation will always be on your doorstep when you start moving down this kind of path. Quick money looks very tempting when you've been surviving on Ramon for a week, but you must tell yourself NO. Few of us can and that is why so many fear this kind of work and strive to ward others to run from it just as they are. . . and fear is a very big, very real issue when it comes to the art of being "real".

There are a number of techniques used in advanced Mentalism that have scared more than a few straight back to the safety of doing kiddie shows. Techniques that can give you uncanny hit rates and more, trick free. Then again, the more advanced levels of Muscle Reading can take you there as well. Catch is, you can't see these things as "tricks" or "deception" -- you must open your mind in order to get there. . . and I'm not talking about boogieman silliness here. There is a pragmatic factor to these things but they require a strange act of faith before they can actually work and NO, it doesn't work for everyone that tries it. . . or I should probably say, everyone that tries it may not succeed due to personal inhibitions and doubts.

There is a rather "deep" composition on the market that was released as a limited edition entitled "Neal Scryer & Friends" which deals with a fair amount of this kind of thinking as well as methods that will improve one's abilities for doing Readings (one on one as well as stage). It comes with a $235.00 price tag and used copies have already gone for over $300.00 on eBay. To those that want to learn the "real" side of Mentalism and those tactics that will help you evolve this shaman's image, the book will prove a gem, not so much if you're looking for tricks. Again, this is an ADVANCED book on Mentalism. While it has some nice routines in it, it is not a book full of tricks and most all the card effects involve the Tarot or similar oracles.

 

[Simon_Magic]

Thanks for helping to answer this Craig. Real Magic practiced by Shaman old and new has always interested me and I have always thought that there is a definite amount of belief that needs to go along with it. People believe that there is a spirit world, should the 'Magician' therefore take advantage of their beliefs, or should the 'Magician' reinforce their beliefs. Although these seem like the same thing, are they? Everybody needs to believe in something. Why should we trivialise something people strongly believe in to suit our needs when we could in fact help them to reaffirm their faith? You mentioned above that you help perform 'Healings', could you elaborate on this please?

TeeDee I agree with you that if somebody turned up to do a show in a Merlin-esque robe and cauldron people are more likely to think that he is a childs entertainer. However if the 'Magician' organised the venue himself, darkened the room, and had lit candles and made the audience come in to the room rather than the 'Magician' going to them, do you agree that all of a sudden you wouldn't want to laugh at the character in front of you anymore? I think it all does depend on the enviroment you may perform this kind of Magic in would help even more to reaffirm the effect and affect on the audience.

Simon_Magic

 

[Craig Browning]

What's at issue is what I've already pointed out; it's very tempting to wrongly exploit belief and deliberate use it as a tool by which to manipulate and even control others. There's uncanny levels of money to be had by persons that fail to hold to the higher ground and greed is one of the most potent of the 7-Deadly Sins but more so when coupled with Arrogance.

Banachek and I spoke on an issue many years ago, in which I had an 70ish year old Native American lady that was being taken gross advantage of by a local Reader. . . her grandson brought her to me because he understood things when it came to tradition vs. rationalism and had heard that I walked on either side of the fence. I was able to make a connection with the Grandmother because of my own shaman training with the Hopi; she trusted me because I respected her beliefs and understood her turmoil.

Steve frowned on the idea that I'd use that knowledge in order to empower that lady to overcome the "curse" being set against her by this other psychic. He understood my logic, but he (like so many in magic) disagreed with the idea of using deception as a way to reinforce a "faux" belief system -- "false" only by way of perspective. To the believer it is very real and the only way to honestly help them is to empower them by using what is familiar to them. In this case it was a matter of a ritual cleansing and setting up "protection" around the lady's home and her family members. For roughly $75.00 in materials I gave this woman peace vs. the thousands of dollars the other psychic was trying to steal from her.

"Healing" would be a high priority to anyone taking on this sort of mantel, but we need to be able to define what healing is and isn't. I can tell you up front that it does not always involve a physical illness; in fact, most of the time a physical illness is the latter symptom to the actual problem. This brings us to the Hermetic idea that "to change the manifestation you must change the energy creating it"

In simple terms we need to help people accept a new way of looking at life and circumstance and in so doing, giving them permission to claim true power over their life and their destiny. The problem with this seemingly simple idea, is how to best plant these "thought seeds" as I call them, so as to inspire such change. In situations like this grandmother, I had to give her a ritual that used recognizable elements of her people's traditions, I'd have to do the same thing if the person were a devoted Catholic or part of Santeria, etc. As a doctor friend explained, it's knowing if the $5.00 or the $50.00 placebo is best for the patient.

The Naysayer believe it perfectly fine to demean such people and their faith and tell them in very cold and blunt terms, to "get over it". They will discount the religious elements without realizing that this course of action not only alienates them and poisons the otherwise positive intent, but it typically results in the client digging their heels deeper into when it comes to immutable faith.

Skeptics likewise frown on our using such knowledge without "disclaimer" ... if I teach someone how to make clouds vanish, I'm expected to tell them the logic around it after the fact rather than allowing the demonstration stand as a genuine experience. Something I certainly don't agree on but then, most of those taking on this role likewise negate such anal-retentive policies; so much so that many noted acts won't play popular NYC locations on Monday nights in that the promoter will not allow Psychic Entertainers to work without a disclaimer and has, on more than a few occasions, insulted and even hurt certain acts as the result of his assholiness.

That it harm none, do as thou wilts, that is the fullness of the law.

No, it doesn't allow for self-will to go rampant; look long and hard at that adage. No harm or loss can come to anyone . . . including yourself. This places an exceptional "burden" on the shoulder of those welding "Magick" as it would be in this case; this shamanic approach for delivering mystical encounter and experience to the public vs. the classic amusements that evolved into society as the result of church-based persecution of tricksters -- those that understood almost exactly what we're talking about; the "Way of the Wise" has nothing to do with dancing naked under the moon and everything to do with KNOWLEDGE. Not how to use this and that herb to cast a spell, as much as how to reach into a person's mind or a group conscience, so as to bring about a "correction" or "experience" that is seemingly an enchantment.

I'm digging a deep hole here, like most such threads it is about to burst into flames as the "moralists" start moving in. My suggestion being that we discuss such things via IM or eMail from here on out.

 

[micheal123]

I always animated to watch real magic. Some are white and some are black magic. It’s to strange. When I will see real magic I will much excited.

 

[Simon_Magic]

@ Craig It'd be great to keep in contact about this over email. Drop me a line at info@simonsouth.co.uk or IM me your email address.

@micheal123 that is correct, but there is also different elements of so called black magic which goes from Hoodoo (Voodoo) to Rational Satanism, it has many different levels. White Magic is more about caring for others I believe from my research into this, whereas Black Magic is more to do with self enlightenment. Anybody, Please feel free to correct me if I am mistaken, that is just my knowledge on this.

Thanks for replies so far!

Simon_Magic

 

[Craig Browning]

Actually "Black Magick" in many ways, is an invention of the Church not Pagans & Ritualists. Technically, any magic one does with the intent of bringing harm or loss to others is "Black Magic" e.g. saying a prayer, as many a believer will do, that "our boys are safe and triumphant over the enemy they face" is in deed, Black Magick. The persons making the prayer are putting their mental and spiritual will -- energy -- into the Universe with the hope of creating an advantage to our troops over the perceived foe. . . then again, that foe's nation is doing the same thing and it is likewise "Black Magick".

BUT, what if we are looking at someone that's ill for whom a prayer is given?

Any act of healing that is done for another WITHOUT THEIR PERMISSION is an act of Black Magick in that we are imposing our will onto another. The same is true for those praying for our soul and salvation . . . any kind of act that involves putting one's own will out to the universe or to a divine entity without the knowledge or permission of said target person, is black magick whether deliberate harm is intended or not.

This is very ancient tradition in that it was believed that we all have our own free will and no other source is allowed to alter our "destiny" without our asking for said help. There are logical exceptions to this, but very limited. Rituals/Prayers that are designed for personal advantage likewise fit into the niche of black magick.

Basically, what Hollywood and religionists present as being "Black Magick" and "Demonic" is a contrivance. Too, most of what they have storied is based on the antics of their own priests; the famed Black Sabbot or Sabbath for an example, was a kind of pay per view routine in which a group of ordained priests ravished a young virgin on the church's altar for pay; regional nobility paying huge sums (donations to the church) for the right to observe in said antics and of course, sacrifice. This is the historical truth to said rites and had NOTHING to do with true Satanism or Black Magick, just lustful and power-crazed men.

"Hoodoo" is not the same thing as "Voodoo" though there are limited similarities. Hoodoo is more of an American back-country practice that can be found in the swamplands of the south but likewise in the mountains and hollers of Appalachia. Voodoo on the other hand is a "nick-name" for Santeria, a religion that evolved in the Caribbean Islands by slaves. The short form description is that certain African as well as Indigenous Islander ideas were mixed with Catholic principles and icons; the latter basically masked the work done (magically) by its patrons. It is the magickle act that is seen as the Voodoo, especially when it comes to the creation of Zombies or use of poppets and sympathetic magickle working (a.k.a. Voodoo Dolls).

It Must Be Understood that true Satanism is very passive and teaches against actual harm of any individual or living thing. Anton LeVey, founding of the Satanic Church in the U.S. wouldn't harm a fly. He's been witnessed by many, taking spiders out of his home or even a store and placing them outside in bushes or some place safe. What the public saw of him on TV was a show, he was a circus performer by trade (Lion tamer). Any spilling of blood or alleged sacrifice shown in his TV specials, etc. was pure theater. HOWEVER, his estranged daughter and ex-wife who now run the show, have taken a far darker and less passive path with things, giving their followers the violence they lust after. For this reason there has been a very defined split between the two disciplines within.

 

[KeoSilver]

I still follow Anton and am gladdened that someone actually understands what it is all about. I'm enjoying this conversation because it is refreshing to see others actually thinking about taking their trickery to the next level. I feel it is a path less taken and will be met with many hazards and thorns, your own brethren in magic, and will most likely not succeed in becoming the next big thing. But honestly, if you are taking the path of ritual magic, storytelling, etc. you shouldn't be doing it for fame or fortune. Your intent should only be personal enjoyment and a firm belief in what you are doing and the messages or beliefs you are attempting to convey to your participants.

 

[Craig Browning]

KeoSilver, thanks for your graciousness here. For that matter I am grateful for the fact that this thread has managed to not burst into flames and rather, know much more in positive support as well as questions.

I would suggest to everyone however, to pick up a copy of Jim Magus' "The Arcana of Bizarre Magick" in that it offers some interesting insights when it comes to one side of this particular path and a vision shared by many Bizarrist prior to the development of this growing trend.

I'm thinking that I need to get with some of the other guys that are helping cultivate this Shamanic path, and compile a book on the topic; it's just about time for one.

 

[Simon_Magic]

Thank you for correcting me Craig. It would be very good to talk more to you about this You are correct when you say about the book on the Shamanic path. I imagine it would be very popular.

KeoSilver I did an essay on LaVey for one of my pieces of coursework about 4 years ago. I found his creation of the Church of Satanism fascinating as well as his teachings. I do enjoy the storytelling side of Magic and attempting to fuse my Magic with Real Magic, I'm just trying to do it a lot more than I do currently!

Simon_Magic

 

[Craig Browning]

HERE'S A THOUGHT

Why don't we create a page/group on Face Book that deals with this concept? I think that would make it easier for us to talk more freely about things and too, filer out would-be problem children.

I'm going to look into it this afternoon.

I need FB names, etc. so we can start with a basic membership

 

[Simon_Magic]

Great idea Craig!

I'm Simon South on Facebook.

Thanks for thinking about this!

Simon_Magic

 

[veteran]

I'll join. I'm Thomas Grote on Facebook.

 

[Craig Browning]

Just a real quick "plug" here in that I don't believe in coincidences. . . I recently got copies of some material that fits in exceptionally well to this course of thinking that I wanted to pass on to you guys. . .

1.) Doing it for Real -- Cathy Shadows/Paul "Voodini"
2.) Dream Window & Hoodoo Talisman Numbers -- Martin Baukin (mevproshop.com)
3.) American Folk Mentalism (vol II) -- Martin Baukin (mevproshop.com)

The two books by Larry Baukin & Ron Martin are priceless in that they "speak our language" as it were. They are likewise awesome tools for doing "the work".

 

[Craig Browning]

HELP!

I can't seem to be able to create a group on FB. . . I haven't a clue what I'm doing wrong when they ask for names of members. I put in the names you guys gave me and it won't accept them or I can process them for some reason.

If someone could help out, it would be awesome.

If you have SKYPE hit me there (therealdarmoe) or at FB on the Chat should you see me there.

 

[Simon_Magic]

Heya Craig!

I just added you on Facebook. Hope it's you anyway. I'm not sure how to do a group but will look into it.

Also, I tried searching for the Hoodoo Talisman Numbers book but couldn't find it on the link..?

Thanks!

Simon_Magic

 

[Craig Browning]

Heya Craig!

I just added you on Facebook. Hope it's you anyway. I'm not sure how to do a group but will look into it.

Also, I tried searching for the Hoodoo Talisman Numbers book but couldn't find it on the link..?

Thanks!

Simon_Magic

I just checked and Loren finally got things corrected; he'd forgotten to change his front page after the pre-release hype.

I strongly encourage you to get on his mailing list in that Larry & Ron put out some awesome material when it comes to Readings and techniques that tie-in well with the Urban Shaman concept. You would also do well when it comes to the Gene Nelson and Fred Crouter materials; not so much because that mate up with the Shaman idea but more because of what they have to say about doing Readings as well as methods.

Look around the site, you'd be surprised what you'll find. Understand however, this is a very pro oriented site and not very tolerant when it comes to the novice who is constantly asking questions -- Loren's plate is very full -- if you have questions about bits, ask me so I can take some of the stress off the boss. . . he's got some very heavy issues going on in his life so I play "filter" (as do some of the others in the writer's stable -- most of whom are older than me and far more crotchety.)