Arrogance

[William Draven]

In a previous post my intentions was misinterpreted to be trolling by members of moderation, and that just wasn't the case. So I've asked Rick to please allow me to try this again as I believe in the message that lays at the core behind this post. Please understand first and foremost that this isn't an attack on anyone in specific on this board, and I ask that everyone behave in a reasonable adult manor while replying to this thread, as the subject is loaded with potential to turn into flames very quickly.

Ever notice how some magicians with social media outlets get flack for some of their personal thoughts or insights that they post? Sometimes their comments can sound egocentric, or even arrogant. It's not just the famous ones either, as we've seen it happen once or twice here on this forum.

The intent behind this post is to ask a rhetorical question of ourselves, and focus some self meditative insight inwards on developing ourselves as a Magi.

So as we develop in character (I refer to the inner character not that dressed up mask we put on when we step onto stage) we gain knowledge, insight, and influence. This process programs certain mannerisms within us that become traits of our character, and not all of our influences yield a positive outcome. Some things can cause us to become jaded, or cynical of the world or people around us. So with all of someone's experience, wealth of knowledge, and valuable insight behind them to draw from I again ask us as a community to define the point where they cross the line from having a legitimate constructive comment/concern/point and become arrogant to the point of defeating their own intentions?

 

[formula]

ar·ro·gant/ˈarəgənt/
Adjective:
Having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities.

I believe that answers your question.

 

[Mouseff]

Bertrand Russel once said:

The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.

 

[Geraint2k2]

There isn't a point of arrogance, some people are just arrogant, and deciding whether someone is arrogant is subjective per individual.

... and I think it's arrogant to critique other peoples character here, behind the safety of our keyboards.

Good stoppage by Rick in the other thread.

(....and I have to agree with JD and Dalton... if i'm being honest...... which I am.)

I'm off to go perform magic at an event where some other guy who's not as good as me is trying his best. HOLLA!

 

[CalvinTan]

Perhaps the line of arrogance is crossed when one believes that he/she has no more knowledge to gain on the subject and/or is under the belief that what they perceive to be the best, is the best.

It seems there is a point where the open mind is closed, most likely when a magician has been around long enough that everything new they see doesn't peak their interests, and/or has no improvement to their own beliefs or techniques.

It could also be a collection of assumptions based on personal perception. The line of thinking would be: I've been doing this longer than you, therefore I must have more knowledge than you, and/or your opinions or criticisms hold so little weight compared to mine that I can dismiss or ignore them.

Again that would be a result of a closed mind that thinks there is little to be offered by the less experienced in relation to the persons status or experience level.

It may also be a sign of a stoppage of self evolution as a magician/artist as a lot of older magicians cannot understand or connect with the next generation of magicians/artists and are therefore stuck in their own time. Look at music. Every generation generally thinks their generation's music is better than the next.

-Calvin

 

[etherealictrinity]

I think you are far too serious, who cares? Its not that big of a deal and i don't think these forums are a place to try and get people to question and change their character and that your effort is better spent elsewhere.

 

[William Draven]

Perhaps, and if you can come to that conclusion through self examination and contemplation then more power to you! You've done exactly what I've hoped you would. You've considered something, thought about it, and reacted based upon those reflections. There really isn't a right or wrong way to reply to this thread.

 

[RickEverhart]

I would tend to agree with much of what Calvin has stated.

A older gentleman in our IBM ring once pulled me aside and offered me a bit of advice, not directing at me, but just as a good rule of thumb.

"Always assume that the person you are talking to knows more than you on the subject until they have proven to you otherwise."


Another thought that just occurred to me is sometimes people mistake "arrogance" for "confidence". They can be closely related at times and there may be a bit of gray area between them.

 

[Michael Kras]

Rick, I live by that! But no one should ever take discovering that they don't know as much as you as a chance to condescend.

As I see it, ego is necessary in performance and entertainment. I like to say that Art is the product of Pain and Ego. If you want to make it anywhere in any field of performance art, you can't be afraid of saying you're the best from time to time.

One of my favourite performers of all time is Alice Ripley, a Broadway actress and one of the bravest artists I've ever had the pleasure of watching in action. She won a Tony Award a few years ago. While most actresses would approach the post-award interviews by saying "It was so unexpected! I'm so incredibly humbled by my amazing fellow nominees!", Alice basically just said "Yes. I won. And I deserved it. I've worked hard to get to this. This feels right.".... sometimes, ego is required just to be honest. If you feel something amazing about yourself, don't act all humble about it if it's not how you really feel.

Me personally? I went through a huge ego phase when I was younger, about 5 years ago or so, and was quickly whipped into shape by my elders in magic who were necessarily brutal on me. Since I was young and stupid, and didn't mean anything bad by how I acted, I took the actions of my elders in really nasty ways. It really hurt... but in the end, it was the best thing for me.

I like to think I'm humble and respectful most of the time, especially to my elders and superiors, but I also know the right times to stand up for myself and my work as an artist. This goes for my work in magic, acting, playwriting, directing, and singing... like I said, it embodies all art. I don't think anyone should strive to be "ego-free", especially if it compromises your confidence in your own work. Not to mention being ego-free is one of those many wonderful impossible things.

 

[eostresh]

Mr. Kras has an interesting point. Perhaps a little bit of ego is needed to stand up in front of a room full of people an be the center of attention. I wouldn't necessarily disagree with that at all but I'll offer another perspective. Ego exists in the performing arts(magic included) because there is no "selection pressure" against it.

If you really are interested in destructive outcomes of arrogant attitudes you may want to search around for some books in "High Reliability Organizations." HROs are organizations that have effectively found the balance between arrogance and confidence so that there is healthy communication from the top down, and more importantly, from the bottom up. Now the catch is that most HROs that have been identified and cited as examples by the academics who study this field are in high risk jobs. These kinds of jobs create a literal selection pressure that tends to foster HROs. Basically, "If you can't rein in individual and/or organizational arrogance then people die. If too many workers in this field die then costs go up. Costs go up too much and the organization dies."

That goes back to my beginning point. So what if a magician is arrogant? Who gets hurt? There is no selection pressure. Arrogance has been rife within the performing arts, heck within the arts in general, for hundreds of years. Perhaps it is because you need to have a certain type of ego to want to perform in front of people, but even if not for that, it would probably exist in a high dose because the Arts are a safe environment for arrogant people.

 

[William Draven]

Here's another interesting point. I was speaking to a mentor of mine last night on this subject and he pointed out that to play on a professional level you need to have a bit of an ego. You HAVE to know you're the best, and you have to let others know it too otherwise in the entertainment industry you get eaten alive. Unless there is a thick skin and a bit of an ego, it gets real difficult to deal with the amount of rejection we face on a daily bases. As he was quick to point out, it's better to have a bit of an ego, than a problem with your Id.

 

[Craig Browning]

Now this is strange. . . I tried to post to this thread yesterday and it was locked. . .

All entertainers need a bit of Ego, it's what allows us to have the audacity to stand in front of lots of people and make a total ass of ourselves. . . we crave attention and I'm more than certain that there's several psychological reasons why this is so, especially given how so many show people saw themselves as social outcasts during their younger years only to have their magic, puppets, juggling or whatever skills pave the way towards a social life and some semblance of "belonging" and moreso, being special.

Ignoring that side of things we have a couple of other forms of Arrogance that usually come off as a negative; the "I Know It All" novice being high on the list in that they have an answer for everything and will not listen to people with experience and even condemn them. Then too, many of this spoilt children (some of them in their 40s) are bullies by nature as the result of personal insecurity. Next to this sort you have those "flash in the pan" types that have just tasted money and the trappings of supposed success. These are the one's that push people this way and that and have no concern over who they step on, etc. (forgetting that they will see those same people on their way down -- as they fall from industry grace). I frequently refer to these jerks as being the High School "Jock" type in that so many fit that mode and sort of bully type.

Then we have "earned" arrogance; those that really do know and have the battle scars to prove it. We can come off rather crass and even smug. Unfortunately, this is usually a defensive mechanism, you'll see it with a good number of successful people that have become VIP personalities. This can be a negative because of how it affects one's reputation and of course, how it makes your "victims" feel in the moment. The other negative tied to this type, is that folks become jealous of what you've seen, done, etc. and as a result (intentional or not) seek to denounce you or discredit you in some manner be it through idle gossip, personal theories, or just classic social politics (I can't be your friend if you like that guy, sort of thing). Typically such critics fall into one of the above negative categories, the insecure bully being most typical; they feel threatened because there's someone making them feel threatened in some way so they lash out.

AUDACITY is a form of arrogance and something I've been accused of in that I have the audacity to be harshly critical on things as well as people. It comes off as arrogance for the same reason any Critic of any industry is viewed in said light, we seem to place ourselves and our opinions on a higher ground. I can't speak for everyone but in my case this stems from decades worth of exposure to quality made, well thought out material and the expectation of others to do what is right and so, produce products (be it a show or an effect) that represents quality and "class" -- self-respect as well as respect for those entrusting you & the product in question.

There are so many factors tied to this topic both, positive & negative, so this may prove a very valuable discussion in the long run.

 

[William Draven]

You bring up some good points with Audacity Craig. Very thought provoking indeed!

 

[AndrewJ]

William,

I've seen a lot of threads lately where you seem to be struggling with personal communications through the online space. Here's an answer from someone who nearly lived online for years, met his wife online, and works in web design.

I see this same question raised and wrestled with in every forum for every art. Painting? Playing guitar? Writing poetry? I bet somewhere there's a community for counted cross-stitch where someone is feeling really insecure about their technique right this moment because of the all-knowing long-time cross-stitchers around them. I am NOT being sarcastic. This question is a universal among all creative arts and their discussions online.

I'm going to be an eternal neophyte as a magi. But, I'm a bitter old veteran when it comes to this ancient conundrum.

That line between expertise and unnecessary arrogance is blurry. It always has been and it always will be. Moments of clarity are rare and usually illusory. The more important question is how we react to it. Do we react with fear that the alleged best of our community is right - we suck? Do we keep looking for ways to get better?

If fear has to rule you then let me at it: what if you satisfy every complaint someone will have on the Internet about your philosophy and technique - and your audience hates you for it? You have satisfied your online peer group and destroyed your art.

Hey. Keep getting better. Keep learning what you can from the forums and contributing the best of what you have to offer. Just don't get tied in knots over what some faceless peers on a message board demand of you.

You know what? If you're old enough for an R rated movie then go dig up Eddie Murphy Raw. There's a great bit in his routine about Bill Cosby and Richard Pryor giving him contradicting advice about his stage act. I think there is some sound advice in that part of his routine. I say this as someone who has seen too many bossy peers, but in no way as an expert magician.

 

[ChrisWiens]

I was speaking to a mentor of mine last night on this subject and he pointed out that to play on a professional level you need to have a bit of an ego. You HAVE to know you're the best, and you have to let others know it too otherwise in the entertainment industry you get eaten alive.

Than Harry Lorayne has to be the most professional magician of all time and nobody will ever come close

 

[S.G]

Than Harry Lorayne has to be the most professional magician of all time and nobody will ever come close

How about Bill Malone?

 

[William Draven]

Well Bill certainly does work a lot.