Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Johnlawl, Apr 19, 2008.

  1. I don't mind other people getting into the art but what I'm worried about is the potential that the show has to make or break magic.

    By make i mean it'll get other interested people into the art. Hopefully, they're the ones that are serious, creative, and passionate about magic.

    And by break, i think E isn't listening to what many magicians are trying to tell them. You could see that business is clearly involved and that "magic" is about to be sold/shown commercially. Of course, people get interested because they're curious and they want to imitate the magicians. The problem is, not all of them are seriously into it; they just want their curiosity to be satisfied and they're done.

    I think E is being oblivious to the fact that a good number of magicians are opposed to what they're trying to do. What's worse is that maybe they're ignoring these feedback and are pushing through despite what many are telling them.

    Add to that the fact that the contestants are celebrities, meaning the rich get richer. Not being arrogant or anything, but game shows here in the Philippines that feature celebrities give the prize money to the celebrities charity of choice. Now that for me is more acceptable. I would have preffered the show to feature amateur (non-pro) magicians vying for the prize.

    We'll just have to see how the show turns out and hopefully more good will come out of it than bad. My .02
  2. Guys seriously. Its not that big of a deal if a few people buy the trick becuase they have money. No one that I know in real life is going to watch the show. There will not be that many people that will see a commercial and go onto the website and buy the trick becuase they have money. You shouldn't be too concerned, it will be a good show.
  3. I think that the majority of you are being pessimistic. It's not like Ellusionist was impossible to find before anyway. If you google "learn magic", Ellusionist is pretty close to the top.
    Plus, if we do not have new people enter the realm of magic, how will magic survive? Are you all so selfish with the secrets of this trade that you want to get rid of every mention of it in the public eye? If you don't think ellusionist should sponsor a tv show, well why do you allow Criss Angel, David Blaine, and all those other to sell magic tricks on their websites. Isn't that the same thing? Why aren't there people going on and on about how magic books are being sold at the nearest Barnes & Noble. Oh no! People will find out that we don't have magic powers! What a tragedy. I want you all to think back to when you first started magic. Did you learn from a book or DVD that you bought, or were you taught by an old gypsy the secrets of black magic? I assume that for most of us, we learned from a book or DVD. Just my two cents. [/rant]
  4. True, but more people will do that google search after this show.

    I don't want that learning magic is commercial.

    I don't think that is a same thing. Ellusionist is making money with selling magic. Criss Angel is making money with his TV show, those his teaching DVDs teach only a couple of easy things to got someone to start magic. Ellusionist is trying to get someone to buy their products.

    This might be different here in Finland, but magic books found in bookshops are made to the public. You won't find a Card College from a normal bookshop.
  5. 2ndDeal, to quote your signature,

    "Path to magic
    Criss Angel episode->Ellusionist->Theory11->Old School->?????"

    The very fact that you disagree with Ellusionist's marketing, yet it was the reason you're here now, along with the vast majority of people, is quite ironic. This isn't a case of you caring for the art, it's a case of you being scared of more people discovering how you achieve your "magic". It's selfishness, not selfness.

    The fact is, those that truely care about the art of magic, are out there working on it. Creating, experimenting and expressing themselves through their art form, and pushing the boundaries. The people that are scared of this brief increase in awareness of magic, are those that rely on the likes of E and Theory11 for their "magic".
  6. #26 2ndDeal, Apr 20, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2008
    My signature isn't my path to magic, but instead a cynic view of how people get to magic in general. I'll edit it, thanks for pointing out it's unclarity.

    I do agree that beginners have to have a place to learn. Magic does need more people, but I don't like the fact that beginning magic is so commercial. In Finland, ellusionist isn't that big problem as it seems to be in US, so I'm not afraid that some kids know "2CM".

    Once again, I'm not saying that it is wrong that more people start magic as a hobby, I just don't want them to start it through companies like Ellusionist.
  7. Wow some of you guys are really stupid. E, theory11, penguin are all companies. All they care about is selling there products and making money. If they really cared why don't they give all there tricks out for free. So many others including I got into magic after watching a magic show on tv or a movie. This isn't gonna hurt magic since most probably all of you guys got into magic because of shows like these. You weren't born in a family of magicians. This show would help many others get into this art and will give us a new show to watch instead of being here talking about the end of magic.:)
  8. Judgmental much.

    Here's the difference between you and me. You preach doom and gloom because a dealer is going to be on TV.

    I see this and think, "How can I turn this into more business for me?"

    Like they didn't already?

    There are a lot of stupid people out there, but how many do you think are that stupid?

    Your failings as a magician are your fault and nobody else's. Take some responsibility.

    Yeah, you know who else liked to make money? Hitler.

    Trust me, it's no less ridiculous coming from any of you.

    Then perform only your own original effects. Never do anything that anyone else has ever done. Ever.

    That's the only option you have if that's your attitude. Now get to work.

    No, it makes you a normal straight male.

    Um, hello! Yes! We've been doing it for years. What do you think this site is?

    You know, I expect metalheads to be misogynists, but Sweet chocolate Buddha it's depressing when I have to read this crap.

    Have any of you ever actually talked to a woman?

    Allow me to demonstrate the power of fact-checking and research. When it was announced that Kim Wyatt would be on the show, I Googled her. On her blog, she stated that she loves magic, was very excited to do the show, and encouraged her fans to support magic and magicians.

    Yeah, if anybody deserves to be called a whore, it's her. Note the sarcasm.

    And people wonder why I'm so bitter and angry all the time.

    Oh spare me.

    If that can destroy an art form, it's a wonder movies still exist.

    Most of the criticisms levelled at Ellusionist are apocalyptic ramblings from reactionary fools who fear their audiences more than anything else. Believe me, I've heard it all. Maybe 2% of the people complaining have a legit argument.

    And you automatically assume we will never do that here?

    But the audience wouldn't have.

    What we want to see, and what the lay person wants to see are two entirely different things. Derrek Dingle made a fortune in booze money exploiting just that.

    Well that's too bad, ain't it? Because it already is.

    Do you know how they sell magic in Japan? It would give most of you a fatal stroke.

    And why not? I started with Ellusionist.
  9. Your really retarded.:mad:
    Your amazing:eek:
  10. Awesome post. I really couldn't agree more.
  11. I actually think this looks pretty good; regardless of the sponsor. I saw a long commercial for it, and it looked pretty neato. We'll see in a week, though!
  12. Oooo so sad now. :rolleyes:
  13. I wont be watching the show, I am far too busy and quite frankly don't think the show will be that enjoyable. But that’s just me, seems dull.

    In regards to exposure, which is the biggest manufactured 'crisis' on the planet when it comes to magicians. Doesn't it seem rather, I don't know, ironic that this entire argument is occurring on a website that sells magic tricks as well? But, what do I know; I came from E and have no issues with them what-so-ever. Also, I bought numerous of the books where I learned card magic from in actual book stores in the local mall.

    Just remember people that there are distinct differences between a magician and someone who goes to any site (including this one) and buys something to look cool. I would almost bet that they will watch the video once, get annoyed at the work required and never bother with it again. I would also bet that the idea of people flooding here and no magician ever being able to perform again due to everyone knowing his secrets is not likely. Most people just don't care until they are involved, and I don't mean by VH1.
  14. #34 2ndDeal, Apr 21, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 21, 2008
    Curious, but the question that is asked most from me is "Where do you learn magic?"

    Stay logical, please. More people watch TV than live magicians. If some trick is shown on TV, it is more likely that he has seen that TV show than that he has seen a magician performing the same effect live.

    But, I have to agree with you on that, that it isn't that big problem if someone has seen a trick in TV and you perform the same. Probably you perform it differently.

    Well then this is the difference between our thinkings. I don't want that selling magic tricks is business. It's OK to me to release something for magicians, since most often those that have somethng worth releasing are professional performers anyway.

    Problem is of course, beginners. Beginners need to have some place to learn magic.

    Oh, really?

    In the case you didn't get it, I'm criticising the current situation.
  15. Ok, Steerpike pretty much "countered" most of our statements with one liners that some of them aren't properly backed up with an argument. You assumed things and criticized accordingly. While you were mostly opposed to what many said, I still agree on some of them.

    What I meant to say, which I think I didn't get across properly to you in my last post, is that many are obviously against the show. It's out in the open (by open, I mean forums and such) and you'd think that E would give a statement regarding their side of the "issue", if there was one. As far as I know, they're not.

    Personally, I am not really against the show being aired, but many are. I'm not for it and I'm not against it either. I'm just wondering why nothing much is being done about those that think this show is a bad idea. If you can clearly see that many are against it, which you can, then something should be done about it.

    Magic is built around secrets right? So would you want it being advertised everywhere, that it can easily be accessed by the masses? We can't really assume right now that this is going to be the effect of the show, but it all depends on how they present it. Whether the viewers will be amazed at the celebrities' performances or E's combos deals, bundles and discounts is up to them.

    Just clearing things up from my side. Btw Steerpike, I know you guys give to charities too. We're all good people. :D
  16. A lot of people are cognizant of the fact that magic shops exist. They just don't know where they're located.

    I am being logical. If people are so horrified of the idea that an effect they want to perform has been showcased on TV, their only option is to invent their own material.

    I saw Mark Wilson's Course in Magic available at Barnes & Noble. I don't know if you guys have that chain in Finland, so I'm not sure how familiar you are with them, but it's one of the biggest book stores in the States. That's pretty commercial right there.

    Most of what I countered weren't even arguments themselves. I actually put more thought into the one-liners than most people do into their cliched Chicken Little prophecies.

    That's because it's not an issue worth wasting their time on. If they stopped working to address every cliched complaint from the peanut gallery, they'd never get any work done.

    Because those people aren't important enough to matter.

    All the crying and complaining being thrown around about this show is nothing that I haven't heard before. It's the same crap I've been hearing since I started doing magic. None of the doomsayer prophecies have come to pass and they never will because they're not founded on logic, but paranoia and a fear of one's own audience.

    Magicians are perhaps the greatest egotists in the artistic world next to singers. And I've learned that many of them have a certain amount of disdain for their own audience. They care only about protecting the empty safe that is their methods, and as a result they see threats everywhere, real or imagined.

    I can state with confidence that this will have no negative effect on me at all.

    Even though that's exactly what many people here are doing.
  17. Nobody expects E to sit down and reply to each and every single bit of hate mail they're receiving about the show. A single statement from E highlighting everyone's general problems with the show would do wonders, in my opinion.

    I don't personally own some big business thing, but if I had numerous amounts of people complaining about something that I am directly involved in and some people saying they will boycott my company because of it, I'm more than sure that it would be an issue that I'd like to waste my time on. In fact, I wouldn't be calling dealing with issues surrounding my company "time wasting."
  18. Because, as an example 100 unhappy people,

    Dont mean anything to E, as they will now make many thousands of sales due to this new show.

    End of the day, E, Penguin, T11 and every magic store really isnt doing it for the Magic, its been done for the money.

    Its business, it sucks, but it happens.

    Nothing that can be done.
  19. You're right, though, it is nice to try and believe they actually care. :p
  20. Some sites do care more than others though,

    But a business has to make money to survive.

    I would like to think T11 has some pretty good morals, and thats why im here more than any other site.

    But I cant judge others, as im not their nearly as much.

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