Death to the Double Undercut // 1-on-1

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Yes, T11 is a thriving company, and yes, it does have to make money. I understand that completly. But do they have to trick newbies into believing they are buying something new and awesome, when you can tell them to go get a book or even a dvd that teaches not only the sleight their looking for but also a heap of other sleights.

Dan White said when this site first came out, there is as much deception going on with the marketing of tricks as there is in the effect itself. Doesn't that portain to what is going on here?


A business is a business Creeper, that's just the way it is.
It has to make money to survive, period.
I have three design agencies and I have to make money to pay all my staff. if I don't they lose their jobs and all my hard work (and theirs) is for nothing). Same here, same at E, same everywhere. It's not a conspiracy, it's just economics.

And as for tricking newbies...how?

When I got into magic I didn't know there were books and things I could learn from. I found an online shop, bought a few beginner things and joined the forums to see what the deal was. From there I was directed to the great world of magic and all it has to offer. I fail to see the problem with that.

The few things I bought at the start cemented my passion for this stuff, and so made buying and learning from other sources that much easier as I knew that I was gonna' get some serous fun out of it.

What's wrong with that?

This is why this kind of thread gets me angry, It's not from a feeling of superiority, or arrogance or anything like that. it's simply because if you produced and sold a 10min tutorial on the correct way to hold a deck of cards...believe it or not, there ARE people who will learn from that, and in doing so the $5 will be money well spent. To everyone else....(here comes the sound of a scratched record)....don't by the friggin' thing.

If you watch the demo and don't know what's going on, so you buy it...how the hell can that be tricking newbies????


Rabid
 
Apr 28, 2008
598
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Squirrel,

I read the posts here every day.
This thread is just another pointless load of garbage with people whining for the sake of it (yes, me too).

I can''t be bothered to re-quote all the bits of your post as you did mine, but for the record:

Yes i did read what people were complaining about, maybe you should go back and re-read the thread for yourself.

The stupidity of my statement is only equaled by the stupidity of all the others.

Do i know how old you are? No. never said i did. But judging by the complaining done by most on here, it's natural to assume that most are still at home.

I never said just being a T-11 artist (whatever the hell that is) gets you automatic unlimited respect, i said the disrespect was pretty disgusting. Which it is. the proof is there for the reading so don't moan at me. And even if the comments weren't directed at Joel directly, it makes no difference. It's his 1 on 1. And fair play, so it's disrespecting the guys that run the place..how does that make it any better?


As for this bit:




Please. Why would I need to add anything to this shambles?
What would be the point of trying to argue with people who think that just because they know how something is done and believe it's not right for them or not worth the money, they are unwilling to contemplate that someone else out there in the great big world may find it useful?

And as for being superior, arrogant, condescending and not reading posts....you may wanna' take a bit of your own advice there big fella.



Rabid

People are not whining for the sake of it, they are whining because they feel they are being overcharged for something that is nearly worthless. People are getting very annoyed by it because it has happened several times now, which is why the reaction may appear to be disproportionate to what has happened.

So what if we're being disrespectful to the guys who run the place? As I said before, respect has to be earned. As it happens, I usually have a lot of respect for all the artists here, but if stuff like this contiunues they start to lose the respect they have earned.

Also, nobody is complaining because they knows how it's done or it's easy. There are many easy 1 on 1's that I have bought and many that I bought even though I could see how it's done.

And as for being superior, arrogant, condescending and not reading posts....you may wanna' take a bit of your own advice there big fella.

I have discussed this issue several times before and started off very calm and reasonable. As this keeps on happening, i'm starting to get irritated by it, as are many other people.
You, on the other hand, come in with this attitude with your first post on the topic.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,247
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It just pisses me off that NO ONE is looking out for the newbies best interest. all the T11 members say "The youth is the future of magic" If they keep doing this, their will be no future in magic. Its simple, if you don't read the classics and study them, you won't go anywhere. I guarantee you, all the T11 artists read books when they started magic. If reading these books helped make them become what they are today, then why not advocate or suggest these books to people starting out? I can only name like 2 instances of artists suggesting the classic books, and not surprisingly, they were from Lee and Aaron, the two people I respect most in magic. Its almost as if they don't want people to succeed, they just want to make money. I undertand they are a buisness, but their also people aren't they? This is hurting the youth of magic, and its wrong. If it continues like this, then you probably won't see me as much as you do on these forums.
 
Feb 1, 2008
32
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This is absolutley unbelievable. This is a new low for the 1 on 1's and for T11. This is a 3 packet swivel cut that can be found EVERYWHERE, there's probably a tutorial on Youtube for it (there's also tutorials for far better and more convincing false cuts)

T11 should be ashamed of themselves, I don't know how they can sleep at night selling this.



Is this cut the most 'effective, hard hitting' magic available? I don't think so, it's not even 'sorta cool'.

Even the BS argument 'but you get tips from a pro' is irrelevant here, you don't need any tips to perform this, there's NOTHING to it. This will not enhance anybodys magic.

They have NO right to charge for this. The only person who would buy this is a complete beginner who doesn't know it's available for free elsewhere.

This is disgusting, if T11 have even the slightest amount of respect for us they should take this down. Expecting us to pay for this is insulting.

I completely agree, I couldn't have put it any better.

Btw the secret method to bring a card from top to bottom, or from bottom to top, is the overhand shuffle.
 
People are not whining for the sake of it, they are whining because they feel they are being overcharged for something that is nearly worthless. People are getting very annoyed by it because it has happened several times now, which is why the reaction may appear to be disproportionate to what has happened.

Squirrel,

Can you not see that the above statement is slightly erring on the side of being ludicrous?

"People are whining because they feel they are being overcharged for something that is nearly worthless."

How?

If they bought it, they must not have know about it before or not known how it was done therefore they've paid for the knowledge. In which case i fail to see your argument. If one knew what was going on in the demo, that person would obviously not pay to find out the method. But if one didn't know what was going on, then how can the knowledge learnt be worthless?

I realise you're not going to see my point (and that the reason is probably due to my first post, which I'm not going to apologise for, but I will apologise to you for not apologising for it...or..?...something....?...whatever...) but unfortunately from my point of view there is a point to be made, and that is i wish people would stop complaining worthlessly.


Rabid
 
Sep 1, 2007
659
1
Actually an Ace Assembly is a totally different thing to an Ace Cutting sequence or an Ace Production...
 
Apr 28, 2008
598
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How?

If they bought it, they must not have know about it before or not known how it was done therefore they've paid for the knowledge. In which case i fail to see your argument. If one knew what was going on in the demo, that person would obviously not pay to find out the method. But if one didn't know what was going on, then how can the knowledge learnt be worthless?

I can see what your saying, I'm perhaps not expressing myself very well.

The point is, nearly all of us know how this is done and know it's an extremely basic move that is widely available. We just feel that it isn't right of them to charge $5 for this. We don't think it's fair to charge beginners who don't know how it's done $5 to learn this when they could learn it for free elsewhere.
If you don't think this is wrong then there's not much more I can say.

T11 is a business and has to make money. However, T11 constantly try to remind us that they are different and and only sell the best material etc. This is obviously not true. If this was released on Penguinmagic people would probably just ignore it (btw I don't have a problem with penguinmagic) as they don't constantly make all these claims about only choosing the best material

Such as
We strive to take magic to the next level, pushing forward in its natural progression and evolution as an art form.
 
Feb 1, 2008
32
0
If they bought it, they must not have know about it before or not known how it was done therefore they've paid for the knowledge. In which case i fail to see your argument. If one knew what was going on in the demo, that person would obviously not pay to find out the method. But if one didn't know what was going on, then how can the knowledge learnt be worthless?

Rabid
What T11 is doing is that it is diluting the knowledge of magic. That's the bad thing. T11 is a powerful tribune and they should really try to filter what they offer to the audience. Forget even about the price, you just can't release something mediocre when there are such wonderful and effective moves that can be much more useful in magic. Even moves that many people here already know, but that have many subtleties to them, e.g. a top change, a pushover double lift, a classic pass, the convincing control, the Erdnase color change, a Hofzinser spread control, a riffle force etc. These all deserve their 10 minutes (or more) of explanation by a professional magician in the 1-on-1.
 
Nov 23, 2007
623
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You have completely missed the point of why people are complaining

Nobody has complained that the 1 on 1's don't fit their needs. Obviously we're not expecting a new super hard pass every week.

The Coin 1 on 1's don't fit my needs at all as I don't do coins, but I never complained about them as they are good value for money.

Nobody had a problem with the Card Fundamental's 1 on 1's by Aaron Fisher even thought they are very basic. They have a lot of very good information for a beginner that is good value for money.

They are complaining because there's very little of value in this 1 on 1, certainly not $5 worth of stuff. Maybe if it was $2.50 people might not complain as much although even that would be a rip off.

You say a beginner may never have thought to use these in their routines?
Even though every beginner book and loads of DVD's tells them how to do a cut like this?

Referring them to Youtube or Decknique is a very reasonable thing to do, obviously there's a lot of junk out there (especially on Youtube) but it's quite easy to find some good false cuts/ controls created by some very talented people
Thanks for the intelligent response but by what you are saying it seems like you concern is with value.
They are complaining because there's very little of value in this 1 on 1, certainly not $5 worth of stuff. Maybe if it was $2.50 people might not complain as much although even that would be a rip off.
Even though every beginner book and loads of DVD's tells them how to do a cut like this?

Ok but by the same token its a value better to get the Trilogy is but no one complains about the bucks 1 on 1s.
TOOC is awesome but nobody’s saying Chris is ripping people off because you can learn them in his book. Same with DM.

People are just hammering Joel because his are simple, easy, and effective. Because they are not level eight or higher and peoples skills are they are passing around the cheese.
 
Dec 17, 2007
1,298
2
28
Melbourne, Australia
Ok but by the same token its a value better to get the Trilogy is but no one complains about the bucks 1 on 1s.
TOOC is awesome but nobody’s saying Chris is ripping people off because you can learn them in his book. Same with DM.

That's where you're wrong. People have complained about all the things you listed right there.
 
Nov 23, 2007
623
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NC
What T11 is doing is that it is diluting the knowledge of magic. That's the bad thing.
So it has to be difficult to be effecitve? Sometimes easy hits hard also.

Even moves that many people here already know, but that have many subtleties to them, e.g. a top change, a pushover double lift, a classic pass, the convincing control, the Erdnase color change, a Hofzinser spread control, a riffle force etc. These all deserve their 10 minutes (or more) of explanation by a professional magician in the 1-on-1.

Oh, so now those are deserving but other ones arent. Lets play pick and choose.
 
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Apr 28, 2008
598
0
Ok but by the same token its a value better to get the Trilogy is but no one complains about the bucks 1 on 1s.
TOOC is awesome but nobody’s saying Chris is ripping people off because you can learn them in his book. Same with DM.

People are just hammering Joel because his are simple, easy, and effective. Because they are not level eight or higher and peoples skills are they are passing around the cheese.

I would agree that it's better to buy The Trilogy than the 1 on 1 's, or TOOC (in fact when 5 Speed was released I suggested it may be too expensive in my review, although I don't regret buying it)

The reason people are hammering Joel is because his material is not original. The Bucks and Chris Kenner get away with their effects being arguably over priced (although I don't believe they are massively overpriced) because they are for the most part very original.

People are not happy because Joel is selling Charlier cuts and swivel cuts for the same price as well thought out original material from the Bucks.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,434
6
Sydney, Australia
Ok, guys, I just wanna say something that does NOT judge the quality of the new 1 on 1, I don't feel like putting my opinion out there. However, I did see something quite irritating.

Namely, that quite a few people need to get off their high and mighty thrones and get real. The argument against Death to the Double Undercut (DttDU) - mainly - has been that it's not fair to charge beginners for something like this. Ok, I understand that.

Then, I went to a review of this cut, where a beginner asked if the review was good or bad.

What did everyone do?

They completely ignored him, a beginner, and continued with their mocking sarcasm. Not good enough.

These beginners that we're so eagerly fighting to save, well, the minute that beginner wants a serious opinion, do we give him one? No, no-one answers him. Why? Because those few members were so utterly caught up in their own high horses, continuing with the sarcasm, being no help at all. They don't want to help beginners they want to boost their egos by berating and carrying on like they're the intellectual geniuses of the world, frolicking in their ability to write sarcasm. They say "Oh I'm just helping the beginners" but they are hypocritical, the only reason they criticise DttDU is to be critical and condemning and basically grind it for whatever it's worth, they don't help the beginner, they ignore him so they can all be "clever" and "cool" and "funny" and laugh at their sarcastic posts.

It took 9 posts for someone to answer the guy's question.

Why? I don't understand, someone asks a question, ok, he's a beginner. Ok, you think the product is crap. Why get so caught up in your arrogance? Cause that's what it comes off as, it comes off as so arrogant. "/facepalm" to this beginner. And yet, "It's unfair to beginners". That's bull, that's shameful and ignorant, I'm sorry but it's true. Why, why can you not seriously answer a beginner's question? I don't understand, all that thread was was "Let's be sarcastic and clever and pay out DttDU!" Only it wasn't clever. Not at all. There's a time and place for sarcasm guys. Some of it may be warranted now. But when all you care about is delighting in your in jokes and making yourself seem cool and laugh along and beat a product down, and then you hide behind "Oh yes, I'm just helping the beginner..." That's not helping, that's being egotistical. Don't think so highly about yourselves. I didn't read all of Rabid's posts, but one stood out: Get used to the real world, guys. When you stop getting pocket money and leave that sheltered life, you're gonna get nowhere.

Grow up, I know you don't like the product, but seriously? Like, are you serious? Cut the crap, cut the sarcasm ok? Just a little bit? It makes you look pompous and elitist.

When I first started magic, the owner of the local magic shop could see it straight away. Did he help me? No, he looked and spoke to me condescendingly. He made me feel bad for being a beginner, he made it sound like it was my fault for not knowing. This is elitism. I wanted to look at a custom deck because I had never seen one before. He said, "What do you need to look at them for? You haven't been in magic very long have you?" He dismissed me, and didn't answer the question.

That almost drove me out of magic. One month into magic, I was humiliated and irritated and treated condescendingly.

Knowledgable magicians my effing ass.

Think about what you're doing.

Get over yourselves, I'm ashamed to be a part of this forum right now.
 
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