Death to the Double Undercut // 1-on-1

[Flyspazz]

I would agree that it's better to buy The Trilogy than the 1 on 1 's, or TOOC (in fact when 5 Speed was released I suggested it may be too expensive in my review, although I don't regret buying it)

The reason people are hammering Joel is because his material is not original. The Bucks and Chris Kenner get away with their effects being arguably over priced (although I don't believe they are massively overpriced) because they are for the most part very original.

People are not happy because Joel is selling Charlier cuts and swivel cuts for the same price as well thought out original material from the Bucks.

Ok. good point. but when I first posted that was not peoples take.

I respect eveyones opinion but we are going in circles a little now. I'm going to drop out of this for now because of that plus I have to run to the store. Maybe I'll ponder and get in later.

 

[dragon521]

Ok, guys, I just wanna say something that does NOT judge the quality of the new 1 on 1, I don't feel like putting my opinion out there. However, I did see something quite irritating.

Namely, that quite a few people need to get off their high and mighty thrones and get real. The argument against Death to the Double Undercut (DttDU) - mainly - has been that it's not fair to charge beginners for something like this. Ok, I understand that.

Then, I went to a review of this cut, where a beginner asked if the review was good or bad.

What did everyone do?

They completely ignored him, a beginner, and continued with their mocking sarcasm. Not good enough.

These beginners that we're so eagerly fighting to save, well, the minute that beginner wants a serious opinion, do we give him one? No, no-one answers him. Why? Because those few members were so utterly caught up in their own high horses, continuing with the sarcasm, being no help at all. They don't want to help beginners they want to boost their egos by berating and carrying on like they're the intellectual geniuses of the world, frolicking in their ability to write sarcasm. They say "Oh I'm just helping the beginners" but they are hypocritical, the only reason they criticise DttDU is to be critical and condemning and basically grind it for whatever it's worth, they don't help the beginner, they ignore him so they can all be "clever" and "cool" and "funny" and laugh at their sarcastic posts.

It took 9 posts for someone to answer the guy's question.

Why? I don't understand, someone asks a question, ok, he's a beginner. Ok, you think the product is crap. Why get so caught up in your arrogance? Cause that's what it comes off as, it comes off as so arrogant. "/facepalm" to this beginner. And yet, "It's unfair to beginners". That's bull, that's shameful and ignorant, I'm sorry but it's true. Why, why can you not seriously answer a beginner's question? I don't understand, all that thread was was "Let's be sarcastic and clever and pay out DttDU!" Only it wasn't clever. Not at all. There's a time and place for sarcasm guys. Some of it may be warranted now. But when all you care about is delighting in your in jokes and making yourself seem cool and laugh along and beat a product down, and then you hide behind "Oh yes, I'm just helping the beginner..." That's not helping, that's being egotistical. Don't think so highly about yourselves. I didn't read all of Rabid's posts, but one stood out: Get used to the real world, guys. When you stop getting pocket money and leave that sheltered life, you're gonna get nowhere.

Grow up, I know you don't like the product, but seriously? Like, are you serious? Cut the crap, cut the sarcasm ok? Just a little bit? It makes you look pompous and elitist.

When I first started magic, the owner of the local magic shop could see it straight away. Did he help me? No, he looked and spoke to me condescendingly. He made me feel bad for being a beginner, he made it sound like it was my fault for not knowing. This is elitism. I wanted to look at a custom deck because I had never seen one before. He said, "What do you need to look at them for? You haven't been in magic very long have you?" He dismissed me, and didn't answer the question.

That almost drove me out of magic. One month into magic, I was humiliated and irritated and treated condescendingly.

Knowledgable magicians my effing ass.

Think about what you're doing.

Get over yourselves, I'm ashamed to be a part of this forum right now.

It's sad you're being ignored because I don't think you could be anymore right...

 

[ElisG]

POTY perhaps? It's sad you're being ignored because I don't think you could be anymore right...

praetoritevong is by far one of the best posters on this forum, and one of the most underrated. It doesn't change my opinion about this 1 on 1, but everything he said needs to be addressed.

 

[Squ!rrel]

It's sad you're being ignored because I don't think you could be anymore right...

I agree he's right but he's being ignored because that's not what this thread is about. It would be a good topic to discuss in a new thread.

 

[adjones]

People are not whining for the sake of it, they are whining because they feel they are being overcharged for something that is nearly worthless.

I guess I don't understand how you can be overcharged for something you obviously didn't buy.

I won't even try to respond to any of the points here, just because of the sheer number. But a few that really stood out to me were praetoritevong's and Rabid's. I totally agree with them.

Now don't get me wrong, I don't think this is the best 1on1 ever, and I'm not sure if it's worth the $5, at least for me... but I can see it being worth it for some people... mainly beginners.

It's simple, but what you guys don't get is that the point of magic is not to fool other magicians- or even to fool lay people, really. The point of magic is to entertain lay people... that's it.

Also, to the person claiming Joel stole this from their SNC entry... think about it, dummy. They filmed all these BEFORE that SNC. That would make it pretty darn hard for Joel to steal it. Once again, you guys get so caught up in bashing theory11 and finding new reasons to hate them, that you can't even think something through as simple as that.

I realize that theory11 could release better material, and I realize how noble and brave you guys are being "defending the noobs", but honestly? Do they need defending? No. If they're not smart enough to research their buying decisions before purchasing, and see what other people think of the product(s)... I personally don't want them into magic.

I could go on and on, but I'm about to give up with all the arrogance and negativity in these forums. I can be negative at times, but jeez, if I were Joel, I'd be afraid to release something just so you guys wouldn't bash me to death.

These forums would be a lot better place if some of you would just suck it up and say, "Hey, this one's really not for me, but I can see how someone would buy it and get some use out of it." Instead you have to make rude remarks about Joel, theory11, and the 1on1s in general. The forums would be a lot nicer place without you guys and your over inflated egos.

 

[praetoritevong]

Guys,

First off, I'd like to apologise if that post came off as ranty, it was a little since that did almost make me quit magic so it was a little personal typing it. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure those guys are awesome in real life, but yeah...

dragon521, ElisG and adjones, thank you very much for your compliments, I appreciate them a lot. I've only been in magic for about 18 months, but it means a lot to me

Squ!rrel, you're right on the purpose of the thread, I might make a new thread on this in a second.

And as ElisG rightly said, it shouldn't change opinions about DttDU - of course, I can see why a lot of people have a problem with it.

Peace

 

[Squ!rrel]

It's simple, but what you guys don't get is that the point of magic is not to fool other magicians- or even to fool lay people, really. The point of magic is to entertain lay people... that's it.

This is something I understand very well and discussed extensively last time this subject was brought up.

I agree that the effect is always more important than the method and some of the simplest methods produce some of the most powerful effects.

However, I don't believe that it is logical that to say that if an effect will fool a laymen it can be sold to magicians regardless of originality. Perhaps you disagree with this.

A good example is Witness, just about everyone knew how it's done before they bought it yet it got great reviews as it's an incredibly powerful effect and is also original. This shows that people are not obsessed with difficult moves or with fooling other magicians.

 

[The Dark Angel]

Guys,

I'm going to chime my opinion in here real quick, and I'm going to focus on some of the things that have been said.

We just feel that it isn't right of them to charge $5 for this. We don't think it's fair to charge beginners who don't know how it's done $5 to learn this when they could learn it for free elsewhere.

It is true that you could learn this for free elsewhere, however, Theory11 created this video with beginners in mind. If I didn't know how to do this effect, and I had to choose between a poor-quality, free tutorial and paying $5 for a high quality, fairly detailed video I would gladly pay $5 for this. What do you think most people, who truly want to have a solid foundation in magic, and not just a series of Youtube or DN tutorials, choose?

As for the issue of paying the costly sum of $5 for this? $5 is not a bank-breaker, $5 is not a beginners life-savings, $5 is hardly enough to get a Big-Mac from McDonalds.

TDA

 

[ElisG]

Guys,

I'm going to chime my opinion in here real quick, and I'm going to focus on some of the things that have been said.


It is true that you could learn this for free elsewhere, however, Theory11 created this video with beginners in mind. If I didn't know how to do this effect, and I had to choose between a poor-quality, free tutorial and paying $5 for a high quality, fairly detailed video I would gladly pay $5 for this. What do you think most people, who truly want to have a solid foundation in magic, and not just a series of Youtube or DN tutorials, choose?

As for the issue of paying the costly sum of $5 for this? $5 is not a bank-breaker, $5 is not a beginners life-savings, $5 is hardly enough to get a Big-Mac from McDonalds.

TDA

Actually my foundation was built solely on DN tutorials, now I've moved on to the Trilogy, Motion and the CODE, and I consider myself a decent flourisher.

 

[praetoritevong]

Guys,

I'm going to chime my opinion in here real quick, and I'm going to focus on some of the things that have been said.


It is true that you could learn this for free elsewhere, however, Theory11 created this video with beginners in mind. If I didn't know how to do this effect, and I had to choose between a poor-quality, free tutorial and paying $5 for a high quality, fairly detailed video I would gladly pay $5 for this. What do you think most people, who truly want to have a solid foundation in magic, and not just a series of Youtube or DN tutorials, choose?

As for the issue of paying the costly sum of $5 for this? $5 is not a bank-breaker, $5 is not a beginners life-savings, $5 is hardly enough to get a Big-Mac from McDonalds.

TDA

I can definitely see where you're coming from. Again, without passing judgment, I just wanna throw two things out there (this time on topic!).

First: Just because an item is cheap, should not discount the cost factor. Many argue that even though $5 is not a huge sum of money, it's still money, and being cheap doesn't make it worthwhile.

Second: A big aspect of the main argument has been that compared to other $5 1-on-1's, it's not worth it. It's all in the comparison. That said, however, I do agree in the need to pay attention to the needs of beginners from their perspective, which some have done.

And as promised, new topic is up.

 

[neutrino]

I will completely ignore the issue of price here, I don't think the argument can be won. It's a free market. BUT, I still insist that T11 is not delivering on its promise and is diluting the art of magic by releasing "sorta cool" moves:

"It's our goal to deliver only the most effective, hard hitting magic to you, the magician. If it's "sorta cool," we won't sell it."

 

[ElisG]

To be honest I don't think it's a particularly bad move(it's just not original), it's a flourish that can be used in a real world setting, unlike something like the J5, and I thought it was quite convincing. What I have a problem with is that they are charging for it.

 

[praetoritevong]

I will completely ignore the issue of price here, I don't think the argument can be won. It's a free market. BUT, I still insist that T11 is not delivering on its promise and is diluting the art of magic by releasing "sorta cool" moves:

"It's our goal to deliver only the most effective, hard hitting magic to you, the magician. If it's "sorta cool," we won't sell it."

Perhaps there lies a contradiction in T11's aims then? Don't forget the many aims of 1-on-1's, amongst which is to help beginners develop a stable base for their magic - no value judgments on DttDU, but just generally.

Naturally, what is good for the beginner's skill is rarely going to be the hardest hitting magic. Take Expert at the Card Table, for example. Incredible for developing sleight of hand. But the patter for The Exclusive Coterie is just hilarious.

Now, I'd agree that this isn't the most effect, hard hitting magic. But in this case, on that point, I'd let them off the hook, simply due to the contradictory nature of T11's many different purposes for the magic community.

To destroy a perfectly good song lyric: You can help some people some of the time, but you can't help everyone all the time.

Of course, in magic, everyone has different skills and needs and a company like T11 needs to cater for many of these.

 

[neutrino]

I don't see a contradiction in goals. There are many moves which are essential to magic and they should be considered 'effective and hard hitting' even though they can be found in many beginner level books. For example a top change, a pushover double lift, a classic pass, the convincing control, the Erdnase color change, a Hofzinser spread control, a riffle force etc. These all deserve their 10 minutes (or more) of explanation by a professional magician in the 1-on-1 because of their subtleties. They also deserve many weeks and months of practice to master before you can say they are easy. However I don't see them in 1-on-1... Instead I see magician foolers or moves that can be easily replicated by a simpler and more effective method which must be taught first or that can be found in "Royal Road to Card Magic".

 

[praetoritevong]

Alright, that's fair enough, I can see/accept your argument there.

Something your post reminded me of, someone much earlier, page 3 from memory, mentioned alternatives, such as a classic pass 1 on 1. I'd just like to mention that while a lot of your (neutrino's) suggestions would be cool, the classic pass in particular is quite similar to Aaron Fisher's Gravity Half Pass, which has also been requested - I think it's simply too complex, and too big a move to teach in a 1 on 1.

In general though, your point is well taken.

 

[neutrino]

Alright, that's fair enough, I can see/accept your argument there.

Something your post reminded me of, someone much earlier, page 3 from memory, mentioned alternatives, such as a classic pass 1 on 1. I'd just like to mention that while a lot of your (neutrino's) suggestions would be cool, the classic pass in particular is quite similar to Aaron Fisher's Gravity Half Pass, which has also been requested - I think it's simply too complex, and too big a move to teach in a 1 on 1.

In general though, your point is well taken.

Thanks for understanding.

 

[Creeper]

I'm going to repost my post earlier in the thread, because nobodys seems to have read it.

It just pisses me off that NO ONE is looking out for the newbies best interest. all the T11 members say "The youth is the future of magic" If they keep doing this, their will be no future in magic. Its simple, if you don't read the classics and study them, you won't go anywhere. I guarantee you, all the T11 artists read books when they started magic. If reading these books helped make them become what they are today, then why not advocate or suggest these books to people starting out? I can only name like 2 instances of artists suggesting the classic books, and not surprisingly, they were from Lee and Aaron, the two people I respect most in magic. Its almost as if they don't want people to succeed, they just want to make money. I undertand they are a buisness, but their also people aren't they? This is hurting the youth of magic, and its wrong. If it continues like this, then you probably won't see me as much as you do on these forums.


adjones, about the noob thing. YES, of course they need help when first starting out. I know you didn't start with the internet, but some people thats the easiest quickest way to get info, without having to go to a bunch of bookstores looking for magic books. If someone says "Hey, I really want to get into magic, where do you think I should start?" Any smart magician would reccomend a classic book, like Mark Wilsons or Royal Road. But what theory11 is doing, is they are reccomending their own products over the classics. I know, I know, they are a buisness, they need money. But these are some of the most respected magicians in the world, and they are basically lying and stealing our money. I know the whole "if you don't like it don't buy it" but you have to think in the back of your head "I feel sorry for those who didn't buy it" Why? Because they were misdirected away from books to these downloads that are supposedly "groundbreaking" and "never taught in detail before" when they can go pick up a 10 dollar book that will last them literally a lifetime.

I'll say it yet again, in the words of a THEORY11 ARTIST, "Their is as much deception going on with the marketing of the trick as the trick itself"


EDIT- Why hasn't a T11 team member said anything about this 1on1? Usually bayme posts a thread.

 

[BlueCuzco]

There have been many good points made so far, and a few posters are saying them at least half eloquently without attempting to insult anyone. I appreciate those people. Essentially, it seems like the basic argument against this 1-on-1 is that it is basic, unoriginal material sold for the same price as difficult, original material. I think there have been good arguments so far to negate the basic-difficult aspect; different people are at different skill levels and the 1-on-1's that match their skill level with be most worthwhile to them. The question of originality, however, it more difficult to answer. Obviously in this situation the only way this video has value is if the move is taught very well. If it is, then this may be a good 1-on-1 for a beginner, and Theory11 lives up to its promise. (and in that case you would have to look at real life reviews.) Sure, it's not original, but does it need to be?

Most importantly in this discussion, I think, is the topic brought up by

Ok, guys, I just wanna say something that does NOT judge the quality of the new 1 on 1, I don't feel like putting my opinion out there. However, I did see something quite irritating.

Namely, that quite a few people need to get off their high and mighty thrones and get real. The argument against Death to the Double Undercut (DttDU) - mainly - has been that it's not fair to charge beginners for something like this. Ok, I understand that.

Then, I went to a review of this cut, where a beginner asked if the review was good or bad.

What did everyone do?

They completely ignored him, a beginner, and continued with their mocking sarcasm. Not good enough.

These beginners that we're so eagerly fighting to save, well, the minute that beginner wants a serious opinion, do we give him one? No, no-one answers him. Why? Because those few members were so utterly caught up in their own high horses, continuing with the sarcasm, being no help at all. They don't want to help beginners they want to boost their egos by berating and carrying on like they're the intellectual geniuses of the world, frolicking in their ability to write sarcasm. They say "Oh I'm just helping the beginners" but they are hypocritical, the only reason they criticise DttDU is to be critical and condemning and basically grind it for whatever it's worth, they don't help the beginner, they ignore him so they can all be "clever" and "cool" and "funny" and laugh at their sarcastic posts.

It took 9 posts for someone to answer the guy's question.

Why? I don't understand, someone asks a question, ok, he's a beginner. Ok, you think the product is crap. Why get so caught up in your arrogance? Cause that's what it comes off as, it comes off as so arrogant. "/facepalm" to this beginner. And yet, "It's unfair to beginners". That's bull, that's shameful and ignorant, I'm sorry but it's true. Why, why can you not seriously answer a beginner's question? I don't understand, all that thread was was "Let's be sarcastic and clever and pay out DttDU!" Only it wasn't clever. Not at all. There's a time and place for sarcasm guys. Some of it may be warranted now. But when all you care about is delighting in your in jokes and making yourself seem cool and laugh along and beat a product down, and then you hide behind "Oh yes, I'm just helping the beginner..." That's not helping, that's being egotistical. Don't think so highly about yourselves. I didn't read all of Rabid's posts, but one stood out: Get used to the real world, guys. When you stop getting pocket money and leave that sheltered life, you're gonna get nowhere.

Grow up, I know you don't like the product, but seriously? Like, are you serious? Cut the crap, cut the sarcasm ok? Just a little bit? It makes you look pompous and elitist.

When I first started magic, the owner of the local magic shop could see it straight away. Did he help me? No, he looked and spoke to me condescendingly. He made me feel bad for being a beginner, he made it sound like it was my fault for not knowing. This is elitism. I wanted to look at a custom deck because I had never seen one before. He said, "What do you need to look at them for? You haven't been in magic very long have you?" He dismissed me, and didn't answer the question.

That almost drove me out of magic. One month into magic, I was humiliated and irritated and treated condescendingly.

Knowledgable magicians my effing ass.

Think about what you're doing.

Get over yourselves, I'm ashamed to be a part of this forum right now.

I've been lurking on these threads for a while now and have noticed these things. It's really a shame; respect is really important on forums since things can be so easily misinterpreted. This forum seems to be mostly comprised of teens; I spend time on other forums that are completely adults and things are much different. A little tentative, yes, but few flame wars and the whole world is a lot nicer. (And to clarify, I'm a teen, too.)

 

[copperfield 14]

Alright I haven't read the last two pages but I'll just say what everyone hates about this 1on1. I'll try to make short. First off I don't think it's fair to charge a beginner who actually looks up to theory11 for something that you can find for free. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=card+flourishes&search_type=&aq=f This is what is free on youtube and don't say that they are poor quality because some of them like the ones from expert village teach everything you need to become a cardist. Now the swivel cut flourish. http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=swivel+cut+flourish&search_type=&aq=f . Why would someone make the same thing a 1on1 and sell it for 5 bucks. Yes it's aimed towards beginners but atleat make a real cardist like Andrei, Daniel Madison, or Dan and Dave make a cardistry tutorial for beginners. Why would theory11 ask Joel to make one. If he really has some hidden material then why doesn't he release them. I don't think it's fair that theory11 is making 1on1's that you can find for free on different magic and cardistry sites. Now decknique tutorials. For those that say that tutorials from decknique are not high quality( not sure if anyone actually said it in this thread) then you a ****in idiot. Let me show you some beginner tutorials, not some nice advance ones that Joel can never do, but some beginner ones.

Lonnie Dilan- Fusion cut One of the creators of the tornado cut( I think) Yeah you can't say he has low quality videos.

pivotal cut by richard-
Allan Hagen rotation cut
Jamz sybil-
etc.....


So in shorter words. Theory11 is basically stealing money from there hardcore fanboys. There selling tutorials that can be sold for free. For those that are saying "if you don't like it then don't buy it". Please wake up and stop being a fanboy. Alot of noobs who don't know anything and remember back to when you were a noob. Will get tricked in spending there money for something that they could have learned for free. Please theory11 stop making these type of 1on1's. If you wanna make beginner tutorials then make some about the pass, card fundamentals volume 3-etc, Cardistry 101. Those really help beginners. Don't do a cheap marketing thing. Next 1on1 Joel paschall teaches his signature move" **** the chalier cut" Yeah I'm pretty sure you get what I'm saying. Oh and sorry if some of my stuff doesn't make sense. Basically don't cheat people.

 

[adjones]

adjones, about the noob thing. YES, of course they need help when first starting out. I know you didn't start with the internet, but some people thats the easiest quickest way to get info, without having to go to a bunch of bookstores looking for magic books. If someone says "Hey, I really want to get into magic, where do you think I should start?" Any smart magician would reccomend a classic book, like Mark Wilsons or Royal Road. But what theory11 is doing, is they are reccomending their own products over the classics. I know, I know, they are a buisness, they need money. But these are some of the most respected magicians in the world, and they are basically lying and stealing our money. I know the whole "if you don't like it don't buy it" but you have to think in the back of your head "I feel sorry for those who didn't buy it" Why? Because they were misdirected away from books to these downloads that are supposedly "groundbreaking" and "never taught in detail before" when they can go pick up a 10 dollar book that will last them literally a lifetime.

First- I think we both know I always recommend things like RRTCM, so please don't talk to me like I don't like books... their my favoritest. I just don't think all this negativity is helping the noobs, either. I'm just saying- maybe not be so negative when expressing your opinions. You only come off as an ass.