Death to the Double Undercut // 1-on-1

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Sep 1, 2007
286
2
New Zealand
2 things.

Somewhere, the magic community is laughing at this thread

Steerpikes comments are the only positive thing about this thread. Funny stuff.

No, I don't have anything constructive to add to this joke of a thread.
 
Apr 28, 2008
598
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I am thinking for the little guys who don't have as much knowledge. Do you know what people are doing right now? People are encouraging people to go on YOUTUBE and learn this cut. Whoah whoah whoah.... Where have I been? Last time I checked people said not to go on Youtube for any tutorials. Now that it's released in HD by Joel Paschall for money, all of a sudden we should all go on Youtube? Well... I sense some hypocrisy there.

-Doug

There's no hypocrisy at all. Nobody has ever said you shouldn't learn cuts on Youtube, they have only said this about magic. If somebody creates a cut they can do whatever they want with this. Magic has secrets but flourishes don't. You can't 'expose' a flourish.

People have been learning cuts from Decknique and Youtube for a long time, it's not like we just suddenly suggested it when this 1 on 1 was released. There are cuts available from far more respected flourishers that Joel (such as Kevin Ho).

Listen... nobody is forcing anybody to buy these 1 on 1 videos. Personally, I think a beginner should get these videos. It's up close and personal instead of through text. Joel is a great teacher in this video.

Personally, I think a beginner shouldn't get these videos, as do many other people.

Chances are, Theory 11 staff member have seen this. Why don't they respond? Most likely they don't care. What is someone like JB supposed to do? Pop in here and say "Masters. I apologize for not giving you more advanced 1 on 1 videos. We will try to serve you better next time." Please...

This comment is so childish i'm not even going to bother to respond to it.


I know you didn't mean to start anything with me, but today has been crazy on this forum because of this one cut. IT'S JUST A 1 on 1 VIDEO! There is no one forcing you to buy it! Just ignore it if you don't want it! We don't need a bunch of people saying it's garbage! I like it. You might not. There is a difference of opinion. I'll have my opinion and you can have yours.

It's not because of this one cut, it's because there has been several incredibly unoriginal 1 on 1's. Why should we ignore it, if we're not happy about it then we can complain about it. If everybody was leaving positive comments i'm sure you wouldn't object. Negative comments are just as valid.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,400
7
35
Belgrade, Serbia
There's no hypocrisy at all. Nobody has ever said you shouldn't learn cuts on Youtube, they have only said this about magic. If somebody creates a cut they can do whatever they want with this. Magic has secrets but flourishes don't. You can't 'expose' a flourish.

This flourish does have secret that is used when you do magic, it's card control... And you dont think that beginners will think this way: "Oh, so i can learn a card control flourish on youtube, hmmm... let's see what else can i learn from there".... ???
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,434
6
Sydney, Australia
Squ!rrel, on one point I'd beg to differ - the same as Toby, exposing a flourish, I believe you can - In the same way that it's unethical to learn magic tricks off YouTube, it's considered unethical to take a performance of a flourish which is NOT intended as a tutorial, slow it down, and learn the move from watching the slow motion of a performance (i believe this is unethical). In this sense, a flourish's "secret" is its exact handling, grip and technique and I think this can be revealed.
 
May 19, 2008
451
0
manchester
ya know when I first saw the video I was fooled by it, Ive been in magic for 5/6 months so please dont say im a total beginer... if I wasnt a magician I would be very fooled, so dont start saying its rubbish, and also let the beginer (sp.) have the choise (sp.), you all seemed to have ignored the review by a beginer saying they love it, I think they have pretty much grasped the idea you can go on youtube and learn it, now its up to them, now everyone seems to be arguing (sp.) for no sake, youve said what you want to say, shall we just leave it?

and please dont reply saying

"buts the beginers..."

because I think the beginers know.
 
Apr 28, 2008
598
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This flourish does have secret that is used when you do magic, it's card control... And you dont think that beginners will think this way: "Oh, so i can learn a card control flourish on youtube, hmmm... let's see what else can i learn from there".... ???

It uses a break, which any beginner will already know. It's the absolute most basic 'move' in magic and is taught everywhere so this won't be a problem unless this is the first video they ever buy which it almost certainly won't be.

I imagine most people can make the distinction between cuts and magic, they're completely different. When I was starting I learnt quite a few false cuts from Youtube, some of which I still to use today, but I still bought books and DVD's to learn magic.
 
May 19, 2008
451
0
manchester
there are lots of ways to control a card, maybe we should just let them use this one AND pay for it.

It is THERE choice, and complaing (sp.) that you can just go on youtube is pointless, because they may go on youtube anyway, maybe they want a good magician, teach them a usefull move well, in good quality.

just let them make their own decision (sp.)
 
Apr 28, 2008
598
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Squ!rrel, on one point I'd beg to differ - the same as Toby, exposing a flourish, I believe you can - In the same way that it's unethical to learn magic tricks off YouTube, it's considered unethical to take a performance of a flourish which is NOT intended as a tutorial, slow it down, and learn the move from watching the slow motion of a performance (i believe this is unethical). In this sense, a flourish's "secret" is its exact handling, grip and technique and I think this can be revealed.

I can see your point. I was referring to people's original creations, which they can teach/expose if they want.

Obviously, I would not refer somebody to videos of a flourish that is being taught without the creators permission or if the creator does not want people to learn it.
 
Aug 31, 2007
375
0
Hartford, CT
Wow. I'm off line for a couple of days and I missed it all.

I didn't read all of the thread but I get the gist of it. I'm throwing in my two pennies.

First off, I think Joel is a great teacher and his Believe is ...well.. unbelievable. So I saw the preview to the latest 1 on 1 and guess what?

I'm buying it. Sorry.

No, I'm going on youtube to find out how to do it, (isn't suggesting AND posting links that expose it is incredibly hypocritical?); No, I don't think it's over charged (Five dollars isn't a whole hell of a lot of money); no, I don't know the double undercut.

Here are the reasons why I think it will be a value TO ME.

1. Joel teaches it. I like his style.

2. I'm sorry, I can't follow along with books like I can with someone showing and explaining a move to me. (That's just me).

3. I can store this on my hard drive and refer to it at my leisure.

4. I don't have many versital controls under my belt. The only pass I know well was from Aaron's 1 on 1 and I don't do it well. I need a lot more practice on that. Considering that, adding any move to my list of moves is useful to me. Anything that I learn can only strengthen me as a magician instead of damaging it.

Finally, I have to go along with Praetoritevong, Rabid, Flyspazz, adjones, dragon521, ElisG and Steerpike here. I see a lot of egos flying around here, a lot of screams of "We much protect the new people!" (Which sounds a lot to me like "We must protect the children" type of screams I hear a lot from adults, but anyway), and I see your points, but in my humble opinion, it's a lot of overreaction.

It's been said before, and I'll say it now.

Don't like it? Don't buy it.

And I'll add: Don't like it? Then either buy it and give it a bad review or listen to the people who HAVE bought it and gave it a review. And in the latter case, listen to both the reviews that disliked it and liked it.

And please, please, please, please, please stop posting links to youtube where you can see it exposed. That's the biggest form of hypocracy I've seen on this site.

I'm off to buy it! :)
 
Mar 16, 2008
186
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Melbz
Thanks Squ!rell for addressing this issue on many of our behalfs. Hopefully the staff will identify, evaluate and develop this problem instead of ignoring it - hoping it will go away by itself.
 
Oct 21, 2007
3,146
1
29
Bergen County, NJ, USA
The reason so many people are getting upset with this 1 on 1 is that T11 will sell a glorified double undercut but nowhere on this site does it even mention one of the many great books or DVDs made by other people that would be a far more helpful for a beginner.

Your ignorance shows.

1. Wayne Houchin has openly said his posts and his podcast he prefers books over DVD's. If you own Aaron Fisher's Card Fundamentals Volume 1, Aaron recommends books for a beginning skill level, intermediate level, and an expert level. Please don't try to make a point valid unless you are sure it's valid. How many books does Theory 11 currently sell? Hmm... let me do my calculations. Ok... +1, x2, divide by 9..... Oh yeah. 0

It's not an issue of price, they can charge what they like, they're a company, the best way to tell them it's too expensive is not to buy it. More or less the same with the content, they can sell what they like, there are no legal implications, they just have to be aware that they risk damaging their reputations if they sell stuff that people think they shouldn't be.

What I would like to see T11 do is to start telling their customers that there are other great products out there other than just what's sold on this site.

Same thing that I said before. Aaron Fisher recommends some books and Wayne Houchin says his favorite books are the Art of Astonishment by Paul Harris. Again, don't make a point unless it is valid. Also, let's say Theory 11 did sell the double lift for 2 bucks.... everyone who comes across the site would buy it. Do you really want your secrets sold THAT cheap? I guess magic is worth dirt to everyone. Also, it's just $5. Is that $5 really gonna kill you? You can probably find that amount in change around your house.

"Two simple, effective, and - most importantly - deceptive card controls"

The above statement is to me the BIG LIE - this cut, or whatever it is Joel is selling, is neither simple, nor effective and most importantly not a deceptive card control. A control by definition must be a secret move, not a flashy demonstration of skill. I mean, what happened with basic magic principles...

It may be geared toward the beginner, I don't mind that. T11 can charge whatever they want for it, it's their business. You can buy it or not. But T11 should not deceive the audience, especially the beginners, who may rush to learn this "simple, effective, and - most importantly - deceptive card control" before they learn something more simple, more effective and more deceptive like a double undercut or an overhand shuffle control.

It is simple. It is effective. It is a deceptive card control. Maybe it's not simple for a beginner, but that is what this is suited for. They will have to practice. When I first started magic, I'm sure this would had taken me forever. It took me 3 hours just to learn the original Sybil cut. The control itself is a secret move. It looks like you are just doing a pretty cool cut. You can do that and it's completely false. Or you can do another secret move in the already secret cut and make it a control. ;) Your statements are false unless you are just starting in sleight of hand magic.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would love to ask you all something. Where is this thread going? What do you all hope to accomplish now in this thread? I believe that the staff has seen it and I doubt they are going to reply for the reason I've already said in my earlier post. Good luck with whatever your goal is, but honestly.... I just don't see it. I think Theory 11 gets it by now. Something was released and you didn't like it. I apologize that you didn't like it. Go cry about it. Actually I can tell you all have been crying about it just by reading this thread.

-Doug
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,818
15
The most shameful thing here is the people advocating just learning the cut for free on YouTube. These are the same people who would have gutted anyone suggesting such a thing a week ago.

Everyone has a price at which they will trade their integrity. It seems for you guys, that bar was pretty low because you sold it for 5 bucks.

Ah yes, the Theory 11 forums. A shining beacon of artistic integrity, vastly superior to all other websites. A place where all members seek to promote an ideal of advancing magic through creativity, community, and ethics. I wonder what alternate universe it exists in?
 
Apr 28, 2008
598
0
The most shameful thing here is the people advocating just learning the cut for free on YouTube. These are the same people who would have gutted anyone suggesting such a thing a week ago.

Everyone has a price at which they will trade their integrity. It seems for you guys, that bar was pretty low because you sold it for 5 bucks.

Ah yes, the Theory 11 forums. A shining beacon of artistic integrity, vastly superior to all other websites. A place where all members seek to promote an ideal of advancing magic through creativity, community, and ethics. I wonder what alternate universe it exists in?

I didn't want to reply to this topic anymore as it's just going round in circles but I will reply to this as it's a bit different to the rest of the posts.

Nobody has has ever suggested that learning cuts on Youtube is unethical, if somebody creates a cut they have every right to teach it. In fact when somebody asks about learning flourishes they are usually referred to flourishes taught on Youtube and Decknique. These cuts will prepare somebody for a DVD such as The System which would be exceptionally difficult for a complete beginner to learn from.

Kevin Ho has posted some of his cuts on Youtube, how is it any way unethical to suggest that somebody learn these? Just because it's on Youtube doesn't make it wrong.

If this was a magic effect then I would never suggest that somebody learn it off Youtube, a 'public domain' cut is very different.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,818
15
Nobody has has ever suggested that learning cuts on Youtube is unethical, if somebody creates a cut they have every right to teach it.

That's just the thing. You people aren't referring to the creator. You're using hte public domain to rationalize your tantrums.

In fact when somebody asks about learning flourishes they are usually referred to flourishes taught on Youtube and Decknique. These cuts will prepare somebody for a DVD such as The System which would be exceptionally difficult for a complete beginner to learn from.

I tell them to get Xtreme Beginnerz or The Art of Card Manipulation. But maybe that's because I'd rather the kids learn from real pros rather than an acne-riddled skeleton sitting in front of his webcam.

You get what you pay for.

Kevin Ho has posted some of his cuts on Youtube, how is it any way unethical to suggest that somebody learn these? Just because it's on Youtube doesn't make it wrong.

But it's his choice what to do with them. He decided to teach them for free rather than charge for them because he created them. That's his prerogative, and it is not your or my place to tell everyone else to do the same thing for the sake of our convenience.

If this was a magic effect then I would never suggest that somebody learn it off Youtube, a 'public domain' cut is very different.

I don't buy the public domain argument. Lots of the flourishes you probably know are technically in the public domain, but it's a safe bet that you forked over cash for them at some point.

No, all I see here is typical magician overreaction to an imagined transgression.

At what point does something become public domain, out of interest?

The law defines it as when the copyright has expired and has not been renewed. George Romero did not file the copyright for Night of the Living Dead properly, so it is now in the public domain. And yet... people buy DVD copies of the movie to this day when they could just get it for free off of torrent sites. Hmmm...

Also, once the copyright holder becomes deceased, their work enters public domain after 75 years (the interim is meant to benefit the estate) unless the estate intervenes.
 
Apr 28, 2008
598
0
You mean like a double undercut?

At what point does something become public domain, out of interest?

- Sean

The ethics for magic and caridistry are somewhat different due to the nature of the moves, magic is based on secrets, cardistry is not.

As for a double undercut that's somewhat awkward as you could argue that it's a cut or a sleight, although this is an exception not a rule.

Defining what is 'public domain' is difficult and there certainly isn't any rules on when or if a move is public domain. What I meant was, the swivel cut has been taught everywhere for quite some time, nobody 'owns' it. So somebody on Youtube has just as much right to teach it as Joel or anybody at T11. The only difference is that T11 is charging for it.
 
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