Does Coin Magic...

[Morgan B]

Gambit,

Actually, the first step in solving a problem is identifying the issues that you must overcome. If you see bringing these issues forward for discussion as complaining, than perhaps the forum is not the right place for you. After all, you seem to be so "busy" with your magic, I don’t know how you would have time to contribute properly to a growing discussion, which explains your lacklustre attempt to provide more than a blanket statement and rather harsh judgement on my abilities and knowledge. Please feel free to inform me on how you are "improving" magic. I would love to know what DVD's you have consulted for.

FYI: I am also a working magician, with credits to my name in book and video, I have rubbed shoulders with the “heavy” in magic, and travelled across country to perform magic - actually, I used my magic to pay my way through University in obtaining a degree in Psychology. So, I feel that I am more than qualified to dissect the weaknesses, on route to improving coin magic.
Here is the thing Gambit - coin magic has many issues that make it difficult to create a stronger level of deception. If you are as much of a working pro as you say, you should see the inherent weaknesses that exist in coin magic. Even the guys I have spent ample time with like Troy Hooser, Brian Roberts, David Williamson, Nate Kranzo - all have talked about the weaknesses that exist in coin magic with me personally. Actually, David stopped doing "Money Talks" in his working repertoire, because he said the audience realized that the only place the coins could be hiding is behind, in his words, "his big f'in meaty hook of a hand". I was 23 years old, and it bothered me because I had just started performing it - but was finding the same thing as he did later in life. No matter how well you did it, people realized how it was done. They couldn't follow it all, but they knew...somehow, someway, the coins were hidden in my hand. Now David has won sleight of hand magician of the year back to back years...and a bunch of other awards...including the IBM Gold Cups, and he feels coin magic has weaknesses that need to be resolved. Oh sorry, Gambit, how many times have you won, what is considered one of the most prestigious awards in magic, in the Gold Cups? Right. Moving on.

The point of this thread was progression, but small minded magicians, like guys named after flamboyant Cajun superheroes, were too concerned about commenting on how "awesome" coin magic was, and completely miss the point of the progressive I spoke of post after post – and what I was doing in coin magic with other names to create progression. Actually, at that time, my good friend Brian Roberts just got back from a coin lecture tour in Japan…why? The effect that got him there, and an FFFF invite – a trick called Penny-trait. A discussion we had inspired the effect, as we talked about the lack of inherent connection in coin performances. Many did not want to discuss where the weaknesses existed and how to progress them – this frustrated me and caused me to delete the concepts and leave them for those that can think. You will find these in my book, which will be released by a major publisher, to be announced when I am both finished writing it, and it is edited.

This thread, which has many of my past posts deleted that talked about what I did and am doing to make coin magic better, was meant for that reason. I am not looking to explain myself to you - but it is obvious by your condescending approach that you are insecure with yourself and your magic. I ask you not to project your insecurities and your preconceived notions on me, just because you seem to have found a small piece of magic "success", you feel you have the right to judge what you have not even understood fully?

Actually, I find it hypocritical that you come into a thread I started ages ago, and tell me I am complaining, but you have done nothing to progress the thread yourself. Read your words, they are empty - full of judgement and bragging - just the kind of thing I would expect to find from the stereotypical of a smug magician that needs to flex his muscle of the internet. Where are you from mate? I would love to sit across a table from you, as I have met some from this site…and for some reason once we are across a table, they are not a liberal with their words.

I only ask you this, don't reply, unless you have something of merit to discuss about overcoming the inherent weaknesses in coin magic, if you EVEN know what they are my philistine friend!

I will leave you with this – I don’t care how good you are at magic – as I am good too – but as Lee Asher always said to guys we would be around at camp. I don’t care how good a magician you are, just don’t be an A-hole. I have found the guys that are jerks, are often not as good of magicians as they think. After all, they can’t even treat strangers on this forum like a human being, but rather a subservient waste of their time…so I can’t imagine how your audiences get treated.

Good luck with your shows.

 

[Gambit]

You say I'm bragging? And what was the second and third paragraph about? I never said I had anything to offer other than my two cents, and if you will see, the last time I posted here was maybe a year ago, or half a year ago, I don't have the time. I'm not trying to prove myself to you, nor do I care about your approval.

But, I will say this, if you still think that coin magic is not meaningful, please do your best to watch Armando Lucero's coin menagerie. It won't be online, you'd have to catch him in person. But watch that performance, then tell me that coin magic doesn't have a hook.

 

[Morgan B]

Well, thanks for the most generic of responses.

Once again, you miss the point. I never said meaninful magic doesn't exist. You really didn't read, or perhaps understand my posts. Please don't bother replying on any level. Your posts have been ignored, and rightfully so.

Too much florida sun perhaps? Later dude. Keep your preconceived notions - and your limited understanding on the potential growth - in magic, they will keep you exactly where you should be in magic and life.

Somebody help this kid understand! He is drowning in the flood oh his own ego!

 

[knowledge]

http://www.armandolucero.com/ZshowroomJapanTvSnippet.html here is Armando doing a impossible color change! damn!

 

[Morgan B]

Hey knowledge - thanks for the link - but that effect actually is exactly my point with coins. He just did a colour change....why? It had no plot, no meaning, it just was...which can be fine, but that is like an event with no meaning. How much more does it mean to you if the event has significance to something surrounding that event.

Often, coin magic, has this same issue - and few do anything to solve it. So what - you can change a coin from a copper to a silver, but why?

If you don't understand the importance of this in magic and how audiences often enjoy a journey long term, rather than a stunt that is short lived in reaction.

This may all be over your head, or we may not be on the same page in thinking - but these points are valid - and I hope that we can address them and see growth.

Knowledge - thanks for posting that link, even though it had nothing to do with the topic of coins.

 

[Randy]

Darwin Ortiz talked about this in his book "Strong Magic." He said it's kind of lost it's appeal because not many people carry around coins anymore. Coins themselves have sort of lost their value on the human mind. Which is why a lot of stage performers now mainly do bill manipulations instead of coin routines. Because paper money has much more of a deeper impact than coins.

Now that doesn't mean that if you do Coin magic people will be bored by it. It just means that it won't have the same huge impact and connection that paper money does. In fact there a lot of excellent coin routines out there that can amaze and wow people.

 

[Gregory Eugene]

Wake Up Magicians

I'm a coin guy but I do see your point and it's a good solid well thought out point and yet no one replying to the post has addressed the issue yet. Coin magic is usually a game of where's the coin.
The answer to the problem is simple; coin vanishes, movements and duplications should be part of a greater trick that defies physics and challenges the mind. If you do a trick that involves four quarters, start with a dollar and magically make change. If your doing a simple quarter into bottle start by vanishing it, then make it appear inside of the bottle.
I personally do the coin squeeze in a very unique way and when it's perfected I'll record it and post it.

While I stand by my answer I would also like to add that no one cares how great your trick is, they care how entertaining you are. This is the reason that one magician creates a trick and then David Blane gets known for performing it. If you're entertaining then you can engage a crowd by making your thumb disappear! God bless and good topic.

 

[Sinful07]

Im going to take a leap of faith here, its hard to process 15 pages worth of information when i just have one question:

Im not really intrested in any type of coin magic except Silver Dream by Justin Miller.

Im sure pretty much everyone is aware of what 'Silver dream' is. Im quite enticed on the whole routine in itself and each vanish involved. Though there are clothing limitations, i feel that it wont stop me from enjoying myself perform it for an audience. Im still in the process of practicing the Vanishes, but im already enjoying myself along the lines, so its definitely a win-win situation. Im definitely not a coin guy, but im allured to silver dream for some odd reason.

But anyways, My point being is that are you saying Coin magic sucks, or General Tricks with Currencies (bill changes and whatnot) suck?

 

[Morgan B]

I am glad that this topic is becoming a hot button again.

First, let me state again - the "coin magic sucks" is not an exact translation, as I do continue on to say - it doesn't suck - but it does have a large number of inherent issues that I believe can be overcome. I HIGHLY recommend reading my first post, and any other that I have not deleted in the past.

That being said - Gregory - I consider myself a coin, card and "other" guy - I am well versed in many coin effects, sleights, and routines - yet, I do find their to be a constant issue with both method (in how deceptive coins are) and presentations that connect.

I do appreciate you enjoy this topic Gregory, however, I must let it be known that you saying "no one cares how great your trick is, they care how entertaining you are" is like the adage, "I don't fool em, but I entertain them". Performance and deception are not mutually exclusive. People DO care if you don't fool them, as much as if you don't entertain them.

If you are entertaining people by pulling your thumb off - you are an entertainer, but perhaps not what I would define as a high end magician that incorporates both fooling and funny.

Sinful07 - I ask you to at least read the first post. This will cover much of what I would discuss with you on the topic. If you have any questions, I would gladly answer why, even though I practice and do effects similar to Miller's work, I do Homer LeWag's stuff - I do feel that it is important to understand these problems so when you do, and you will, face them in your own material - you can think about overcoming them....hopefully, before you show it to people. However, I find with many magicians, they will do it - then go...oh, that dude was right about how many people react. However, feel free to allow your own experience guide you.

So - to answer your question - I feel that COIN magic has weaknesses - actually, do do bill effects, but that is not the point of this thread. Those issues are completely different, as coins are different from cards or sponges...some things may overlap, but really - I would ask we keep this issue seperate.

 

[Sinful07]

Cheers- I'll read the first post. It is quite intimidating, 15 pages filled with Arguments and counter arguments. its kind of mind-numbing after the first few paragraphs. Low attention span you see.

Anywho, will bear that in mind.

Cheers!

-Sin

 

[Morgan B]

I appreciate the effort, and I think once you read my first post - you will have a better sense at what I am getting at. This thread is overwhelming...even being part of it.

 

[Sinful07]

It seems like a vicious cycle. Though you noticed the problem, you (or any other individual) has not really conceived an answer.

I'd have to agree with you at most points. It does create that sense of "hide and seek" in a coin routine.

Many (if not all) points have been elaborated already by other members, im just pissing in the wind by pointing out my perspective.

Good stuff Morg.

-Sin

 

[Morgan B]

Sin,

I actually did post many things that were solutions, and had good conversations, but removed it after awhile - some of the solutions were alluded to by reading others posts.

My first post was to get the idea out there - coin magic has issues - okay, so it does, now what?

Now - let's talk about solving them.

Issue number 1 - how can you make coin magic more interesting. My buddy Brian Roberts has a great routine with a penny - when I use it, I open with it. I walk up to a table - look underneath it, and say "Yes! A penny" - I pick it up and say Brian's line to relate, "Find a penny, pick it up...all day long you have good luck" - then add, "Also, all day long you realize that "luck" and "up" don't rhyme. I then say, "it is funny, people cast pennies aside...but they grow in value"...then change the penny into a silver dollar size replica of the penny. I then talk about how people toss pennies away because they are almost worthless...or they make your hands smell funny...but pick up enough of them and you can change them for some silver coins. Then I change the silver dollar penny, to a silver dollar - as in Brian Roberts handling of Penny-trait. The routine continues, but what I like about it, is that everyone is able to relate to "finding a penny" - Brian even uses a line about being so lucky, that maybe the penny is what lead them to meeting - "how lucky"!

I have also seen a coins across - using edge grip - the Roth one - where a guy talks about 4 brothers that were all given a coin - how the first three guys wasted the money on wine, women then song (vanishing each time) but the last brother was smart and invested it. He became very rich...all the 4 coins return from the one.

Both these routines present in a way that creates an emotional hook - which is MUCH better than - look it's here, now it's gone, not it's in my elbow, etc.

I will let you absorb this - and here what you have to say about it - then perhaps talk to you about method flaws in coin magic, and how we can change that.

Can you think of any presentations that can make coin magic more TANGIBLE or CONNECTED of an experience? How can you do magic with coins that relates to what people do and see with money (coins) day to day.

Oh - after thought - this is why Blaine is best remembered from his first special for taking the coffee cup from the homeless guy, and making it fill with coins. It was magic with reason and for a purpose, but it was also something we can all relate to. A homeless person asking us for pocket change.

Thanks for responding Sin - later.

 

[Sinful07]

I feel kind of useless- because i understand you, but i cannot seem to relate any experience or suggest any tangible answers towards any of your requests. As inexperienced i am with card magic- i am MUCH more inexperienced with coins.

I do understand you though. Blaine's Special was quite memorable and it did create that feeling of relativity. the whole Homeless guy= Asking for pennies. Blaine comes along and gives him a cup full of it.

anyways, that's probably how constructive i'll ever get in this topic. As much as i'd love to discuss, i am very inexperienced in this field and i feel that i'd only blabber on, and waste everyone's time.

Cheers,

-Sin

 

[Morgan B]

I understand, but realize that sometimes inexperience can be a strength, as you are not yet polluted by your learnt thoughts, so may come up with something that someone with more experience would overlook. It is a hard subject though, which is why I brought it to the group. Continue to think about it, as time goes on, check in if an experience makes you feel one way or the other.

 

[ozzymagic]

Firstly I'd like to say I havn't read through this whole thread yet but I'd like to share my thoughts.
Morgician you make some interesting points and it's good you are looking at magic criticaly but I belive the biggest problem to your post althugh slightly off topic is that you believe the audience is always searching for the method. In some cases this is true more so in the new generation of presentation with the 'look' 'look' watch me david blaine type.
But if you are an engaging person and look to connect and entertain your audience magic should be secondery it should be YOU they remember and if you achieve this properly they should not care about the method, lets not forgot our primary goal is to entertain.

But here lies the inherit problem that being how can we entertain with coins when most presentations you see seem so trivial. How I try and overcome this and by know means is this write or wrong is when writing a script i try to think of some plot or premise that has occured to me (I hope that makes sense) that the audience can relate to. Using coins is great because it is such a common item that it already creates interest. One of my favourite tricks to perform is empowermeant by craig petty wich I scripted independantly but the premise is similar to Craigs that being making the spectator the magician which establishes an emotional hook. Remember scripting is the most important thing a magician can do (do yourself a favour and pick up scripting magic).

Any way its late and I'm rambling

Best

Sean

 

[Morgan B]

Ozzymagic, let me say this - it is late, so I will do my best to have some tact and take into consideration that I was nice enough to read your post, although you admittedly did not read mine...I hope you at least read the first - you would realize that what I said is not off topic, but a progressive conversation - that I deleted most of my stuff from....anyhow.

I think you are overlooking the kind of magician I am, and how I approach magic - my magic is very connected - I find coin magic is not always so connected - this is not to say it can't be, it just usually isn't. Even if you did connect with a coin effect, if you think people "should not care about the method" than I am concerned for your magic.

That would be like saying to a piano player - "if you sing songs that people can sing along with, than it doesn't matter if you hit the right notes" - people do think about method, more so than your presentations, long after you are gone. There basic job is to not be fooled, yours is to fool them. The logical mind wants to figure out how it was done - why do you think people say, "How did you do that" - even though I don't think they literally want to know how it is done - that is the question they are asking themselves, albeit retorical.

Method REALLY matters in long term fooling - you should seriously consider Darwin Ortiz' book, Strong Magic, as it not only will help you increase your standards of deceptions, but make your performances better as well...not to mention, help you understand my critical analysis of coin magic. Engaging someone does help take the heat off method, but no matter how "entertaining" you are - if someone takes the time to think about coin magic...and even mutters - I bet it was just in the other hand - sadly they are right in about 90% of coin effects! To me - this isn't good magic.

If they have an idea of how it MAY be done, than you are just a funny guy that hides behind bad magic that doesn't fool in the long run. You see, you might be happy to fool people while you are at the table...but when you leave, and they talk about it - they will try to pick it apart. I want them to be fooled FOREVER, not just FOR NOW. As Swiss put it in his lecture - BE A STORY TO THEIR GRANDKIDS - but they have to remain fooled for that to be true. I have seen many bad outcomes with coin magic - even one guy saying to me...I saw a guy vanish a coin - and he replicated the motions of a retention vanish with his hands. Not closing his one hand then saying it was gone - but placing the coin in his other hand...to me, this is too close. I find both methods and presentations (less so presentations, but still - very empty in how connected they are, compared to how connected magicians THINK they are) to lack.

I see this often in magicians - crowds go nuts while they are there...they walk away, and people start to talk theories - and they logically (because magic is logical in creation) figure out the methods. COIN magic being one of the easiest - depending on the effect, but the constant hand washing, poor and unnatural hand positions and poorly done sleights lead to...well, what could practically be considered exposure...unintentional, but true.

So - OUR PRIMARY GOAL is NOT to entertain - it is to BOTH entertain and fool - they are NOT mutually exclusive...they can't be.

As for coins being "Common items", I don't agree that this create interest - common place coins actually do the exact opposite...when is the last time you saw a penny on the ground and everyone gathered around to look at it and watch you pick it up? Seriously, COMMON things are just that - common...so they actually create NO inherent interest. But, I would agree that it creates inherent trust, I also believe this eliminates methods though - as people are CERTAIN they are not trick coins...because they are "common place". Perhaps a place we can take advantage?

Sean, I have already scripted my magic years ago, constantly re-write, and work on my sets....and STILL I bought scripting magic (good recommendation -so please head mine on Strong Magic) - so before I go further, I recommend you read my first entry - perhaps look for a few others - and realize that coins is a problem on many levels. Actually, on the topic of Scripting Magic - Pete McCabe has the most RIDICULOUS presentations for coins and a flame...a vortex? Seriously? You want someone to suspend their disbelief that much? That is a bit "Lord of the Rings" fan type disbelief bro - perhaps in the right venue, but I find it a bit absurd to say - oh the coins vanish because of a magical vortex - these are the kind of plots - said SERIOUSLY, not tongue in cheek - that lead audiences to roll their eyes and see magic for children. Then we wonder why we got done this serious coin routine that takes so much work, for someone to look over at their husband and say...oh, our 5 year old would love this.

Anyhow - read more in my first post - you may understand why my posts are not off topic.

My first post combs over them - I would LOVE to discuss it further, if you took the time to see what it is that I am talking about.

 

[MagicShadow9]

Omg i hate these threads. I'm not talking about the type of discussion. I just hate how almost every post is 5 paragraphs long. I would love to read all of them but after reading the first post and 3 other replies, i got dizzy.

 

[Morgan B]

Sorry to hear that MagicShadow9 - if you look at the date of the first post, you realize this post has been up for close to a year now - so, trying to read them all in one sitting could be daunting.

It is too bad - as there is much merit in this thread. Oh well, intelligent thinking and effort is not for everyone.

 

[ozzymagic]

Morgician,
First I did read your whole first post and many others what I meant is I did not read the whole thread it seemed a bit daunting but I'll sit down for a while and do my best. And I don't really understand what you mean by off topic I was refering to my own post, anyhow:

I tend to agree with alot of what you say (especialy about Petes vortex script but there are some amazing scripts in there [read Jammy Ian Swis's essay briliant]) but I again disagree with your theory on layman contantly searching for methods. The most common responce i get is "How did you do that, you know I don't even want to know, that was amazing" and that for me is the biggest compliment I can get, more so than some bikini model screaming wildly (AKA ellusionist). Because this is when I believe my magic has gone beyond a simple trick to where a moment of astonishmeant (what Paul Harris gets at) or a moment of magic has been shared between us. And in most circumstances I belive the spectator is happy to have shared a magical moment and not feal fooled or played but astonished and thoroughly entertained and I still belive entertainmeant is our main goal.

Anyhow I belive this type of Astonishmeant can not only be reached by method nor by presentation but by a combination of both. But perhaps after I do leave the group they start geusing methods this is where your method is vital and it is important that your sleight of hand especialy for coin magic is impecible (so they have no reason to geuss and answers and no leads).

Lets look at a three coin prduction and vanish using a tripple threat gimick. Done well this is perhaps one of the strongest pieces of magic you can do and looks so smooth and effortless. But what is the point, why would I make three coins apprear and then dissapear? Is it because they are old morgan dollars and if squeezed to hard crumble away to nothing, or another reason. What is the emotional hook? Where is the audience particpation? This is where your class comes in, add a bit of yourself make it unique and sincere so it does not appear fake and make it interesting and interactive, that is your part but it can be done.

Anyway sorry if I offended you with my first post I highly anticipate your reply and thankyou for one of the few worthwhile topics.
Regards