How do you explain magic morals?

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
My main question is how do you explain magic morals to a layman, or for that matter another magician?

I'll give some examples of some scenarios I've gone through lately to be clear.

1. The Kissing Card trick is a viral video put out by local guy here in Salt Lake City. He is not a magician but rather a guy that likes magic and knows a couple tricks. This video just happens to feature Wayne Houchin's effect "French Kiss". He promised that after so many likes he would reveal the secret. I felt like I needed to let him know that this wasn't a very good idea.

My communication went something like this "I saw that you wanted to teach Wayne Houchin's magic trick "French Kiss" on your youtube page. I know you don't mean any harm in sharing but it really isn't your trick. You teaching it on your youtube page would be kind of like Rachel Ray taking a recipe from Paula Dean and showing how to make it on her show without Dean's permission."

2. I recently created a way to make a car disappear. While I haven't seen anyone else use the exact same method I have a hunch that it was discovered by Franz Harrary before me. My friends and family think it's a cool idea and want to film it so that we can promote my show. I feel like we could go film it and send a video to Harrary just to be sure it's original. My freinds don't understand why.

3. Lastly, a local club here had a so called "workshop" that taught how to make and perform Calen Morelli's Dresscode. The kid who suggested it had downloaded the DVD off a torrent site. So about 10 magicians leaned the trick without Calen getting a penny. I wrote a letter to the presidency of this club, all of whom have been in magic for many years and a couple are full time professionals. To my surprise almost nobody had a problem with it!

So here are 3 moral dilemmas with three very different types of people. How do we explain that these things are wrong?
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
Sometimes there's just no talking people out of a bad decision. The guy posting the exposure video will do it because he wants the attention. The club doing a workshop without the creator's approval are doing it because they think they're entitled. In the case of your family, they just aren't familiar with the professional courtesy standards unique to the industry.

Ultimately, just don't associate with negative people. Stay away from that club. Never perform anything that the one exposure monkey knows. Leave them behind where they belong.
 
May 9, 2012
202
0
New York
im in high school so the way i often explain it to my friends is by saying something like "imagine you spent weeks writing an essay for a class. you worked really hard on it and revised it and made it as best as it could be. then i took it and handed it in, taking credit for all your work and taking the benefits that you should've gotten."
 
Feb 10, 2013
185
0
I don't understand why anyone would ever reveal a trick that they know. They are taking away from the magician who really created the effect, but sometimes the beginner "magician's" don't care about that. Even if they don't care and are selfish like that, revealing only will take away from their fame because now everyone knows the secret. Then they will no longer be known as the guy who did that trick because everyone would do it. Revealing secrets makes no sense no matter how people look at it.
 
Sep 1, 2007
3,786
15
I don't understand why anyone would ever reveal a trick that they know. They are taking away from the magician who really created the effect, but sometimes the beginner "magician's" don't care about that. Even if they don't care and are selfish like that, revealing only will take away from their fame because now everyone knows the secret. Then they will no longer be known as the guy who did that trick because everyone would do it. Revealing secrets makes no sense no matter how people look at it.

What the exposure monkeys and YouNoobs are trying to do is buy social status with the currency of information.

Was that too pretentious a way to say it? Let me try that again.

The trend I've noticed is that exposure monkeys tend to be insecure, mouthy, and entitled. You know, teenagers. They don't understand that the whole point of mystery entertainment is (durr!!) the mystery. What they see is that the guy at their school or whatever can do something that no one else can and they're getting attention for it. They don't understand that the not knowing is what's exciting. Instead, they think the magician is manipulating people into liking him by presenting a mystery and withholding the solution.

With that fallacy in mind, the exposure monkey then comes to the conclusion that if he learns this and then reveals the secret to people, he will be giving them the information they asked for and they will like him for it and reciprocate the favor with attention, companionship and possibly sex. They're trying to buy the approval and adulation of others. But lacking any skills or qualities with any real social value, at least as far as they know, they instead look for ways to cheat and take a shortcut to popularity (and poontang).

Naturally, it doesn't work. Once you've revealed the secret, you cease to be interesting anymore. The crowd does not see the exposure monkey as a friend, but as a vending machine. Push button, receive magic trick. So the crowd moves on to something else that will hold their attention. The exposure monkey, briefly enjoying a moment of people's attention, think that he must not have revealed enough if they left, so he does it again trying to make the lightning strike twice. And again. And again, and again, and again and so on.

So no, it makes no sense. But good luck convincing these poor schmucks of that. The most common justification they will give for what they do is that they think giving away secrets makes them morally superior to you, that they have more of a life than you do and that keeping magic secrets is only for losers. You're never going to get through to someone that out of touch.
 

RickEverhart

forum moderator / t11
Elite Member
Sep 14, 2008
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Louisville, OH
I will be the one to throw a wrinkle into the mix...ha ha. Our IBM magic club has a library of DVD's. Probably over 200 of them that had been purchased by the club. We allow paid members of our club to "check" them out just like you would a book out of a library. Is it wrong? Maybe.

Also, we have certain meetings that are called "Teach a Trick" night where all members come and actually teach an effect even if it is not their own creation. Now, this is done with crediting, I assure you, however, everyone who is "learning" the effect has not paid for the book or dvd. Is it wrong? Maybe.

I guess it is definitely a touchy subject. Steer makes some very valid arguments and points.
 

RealityOne

Elite Member
Nov 1, 2009
3,744
4,076
New Jersey
Josh:

1. The guy posting French Kiss video views magic as knowing a bunch of secrets. As Alex said, he thinks he is special because he knows a secret. Once he reveals it, he will no longer be special. Repeat until he gets tired of it. As Jim Steinmeyer said, in this instance, we are guarding an empty vault. The secrets aren't the secret. A magician is good not because he knows a lot of secrets, but because he knows how to present those secrets in an entertaining way. I agree with how you handled it, but doubt you will have any success.

2. Send the video to Franz. Craig might know how to get in touch with him. You are responsible for your ethics. Do what is right.

3. That sounds like it violates the code of ethics for both SAM and IBM. I agree with your speaking up. If we remain silent, we've lost the battle. I remember Eric Jones doing one of Woody Aragon's effects in a lecture. Eric didn't teach the effect because it wasn't his. The difference is that kid doesnt care bout his reputation where Eric does.

Rick:

I've borrowed books (mostly hard to find out of print books). I think the videos are the same. The Magic Castle and the Conjuring Arts Research Center have libraries of books. This is clearly legal (unlike torrent sites) and I suspect it is expected by the authors and creators.

The teach a trick meeting has its issues. Crediting is a start, but teaching someone else's material without permission is problematic. I wouldn't have a problem with public domain material - something out or Royal Road or the Jinx. If the teaching is the effect off the latest DVD they purchased, then I have a problem. Now, I have less of a problem with using a sleight developed by someone in a routine. That is how we build on what has come before us.

At the end of the day, I do what I think is right. With others, there is enough stuff that is black and white not to worry about the grey.
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
Josh:

1. The guy posting French Kiss video views magic as knowing a bunch of secrets. As Alex said, he thinks he is special because he knows a secret. Once he reveals it, he will no longer be special. Repeat until he gets tired of it. As Jim Steinmeyer said, in this instance, we are guarding an empty vault. The secrets aren't the secret. A magician is good not because he knows a lot of secrets, but because he knows how to present those secrets in an entertaining way. I agree with how you handled it, but doubt you will have any success.

2. Send the video to Franz. Craig might know how to get in touch with him. You are responsible for your ethics. Do what is right.

3. That sounds like it violates the code of ethics for both SAM and IBM. I agree with your speaking up. If we remain silent, we've lost the battle. I remember Eric Jones doing one of Woody Aragon's effects in a lecture. Eric didn't teach the effect because it wasn't his. The difference is that kid doesnt care bout his reputation where Eric does.

Rick:

I've borrowed books (mostly hard to find out of print books). I think the videos are the same. The Magic Castle and the Conjuring Arts Research Center have libraries of books. This is clearly legal (unlike torrent sites) and I suspect it is expected by the authors and creators.

The teach a trick meeting has its issues. Crediting is a start, but teaching someone else's material without permission is problematic. I wouldn't have a problem with public domain material - something out or Royal Road or the Jinx. If the teaching is the effect off the latest DVD they purchased, then I have a problem. Now, I have less of a problem with using a sleight developed by someone in a routine. That is how we build on what has come before us.

At the end of the day, I do what I think is right. With others, there is enough stuff that is black and white not to worry about the grey.

Thanks for your input David. Yeah the guy replied to my question and could care less about ethics, it's too bad. The club meeting wasn't an IBM or SAM meeting it was a smaller club I won't give it's name but it was started because of the distance to the nearest IBM or SAM meeting. That said there are still around 30 magicians who hold membership to the club.

I'll film the video and talk with Craig. Thanks again for all the great responses!
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
1. The Kissing Card trick is a viral video put out by local guy here in Salt Lake City. He is not a magician but rather a guy that likes magic and knows a couple tricks. This video just happens to feature Wayne Houchin's effect "French Kiss". He promised that after so many likes he would reveal the secret. I felt like I needed to let him know that this wasn't a very good idea.

My communication went something like this "I saw that you wanted to teach Wayne Houchin's magic trick "French Kiss" on your youtube page. I know you don't mean any harm in sharing but it really isn't your trick. You teaching it on your youtube page would be kind of like Rachel Ray taking a recipe from Paula Dean and showing how to make it on her show without Dean's permission."

I love that analogy, it's perfect!

2. I recently created a way to make a car disappear. While I haven't seen anyone else use the exact same method I have a hunch that it was discovered by Franz Harrary before me. My friends and family think it's a cool idea and want to film it so that we can promote my show. I feel like we could go film it and send a video to Harrary just to be sure it's original. My freinds don't understand why.

We've already spoken about this and like I said, I'm more than willing to help you field any questions you may have.

3. Lastly, a local club here had a so called "workshop" that taught how to make and perform Calen Morelli's Dresscode. The kid who suggested it had downloaded the DVD off a torrent site. So about 10 magicians leaned the trick without Calen getting a penny. I wrote a letter to the presidency of this club, all of whom have been in magic for many years and a couple are full time professionals. To my surprise almost nobody had a problem with it!

This one ticks me off and I'd say (if this is a group like IBM or SAM) that you need to write to the national office and demand some corrective action. I'd likewise name, names and "out" the guilty in this case because it is blatant theft. At a minimum, I would contact the creator of said trick and give him the information as to who was involved so he and his legal advisers can take action and claim compensation + damages from the entire group but most especially the torrent site from where things originated, the original thief and the head of your magic club for allowing the exposure to evolve.

I rarely encourage the Name & Shame routine but this is one of those situations where I think it's justified.
 

Josh Burch

Elite Member
Aug 11, 2011
2,966
1,101
Utah
This one ticks me off and I'd say (if this is a group like IBM or SAM) that you need to write to the national office and demand some corrective action. I'd likewise name, names and "out" the guilty in this case because it is blatant theft. At a minimum, I would contact the creator of said trick and give him the information as to who was involved so he and his legal advisers can take action and claim compensation + damages from the entire group but most especially the torrent site from where things originated, the original thief and the head of your magic club for allowing the exposure to evolve.

I rarely encourage the Name & Shame routine but this is one of those situations where I think it's justified.


I'll let Calen know for sure. The club isn't affiliated with IBM or SAM. It's an hour away from the nearest IBM so they created their own club called NUMA. There are plenty of magicians that belong to both NUMA and one of these other clubs though. It really makes me sick.
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
This is an interesting subject. It doesn't only apply to magic, but to piracy as a whole. Try to define the term "Morals". Morals are the standards that have been defined by what the general public sees as right or wrong. Morals wouldn't exist if they hadn't been passed down from someone, that's why there are double standards. Conflicting standards. So, what if the standard that is now being passed through the Internet is "it's acceptable to steal information"?

This relates to piracy in the sense that everyone who does it KNOWS that they are violating moral code, they just don't care. It's a childish desire basically. Think about a child that wants their parent to buy them candy. The parent says they can't have it and the child is upset. Piracy is essentially taking the candy that you can't have. The Internet has made this action extremely easy because it's so instant and widespread. In magic, where the value lies in the secret for most people, instant exposure of information is very detrimental.

Many people lie to themselves and claim that they aren't "Stealing", they're taking what they couldn't fairly/legally acquire otherwise. This argument is absolutely ignorant; taking what you can't fairly acquire is the DEFINITION of stealing. When someone steals something from a store, they know they're stealing. It's just much more clear to the public because the object that they stole is just that. An object. It's tangible, they've stolen substance. When people steal magic and expose it, in their eyes, they are merely distributing information almost like a library or Google would. It's much easier to let things slip past your moral code when you're convinced you've found a loophole and everyone agrees. And if everyone thinks something is okay, than isn't that a moral because morals are defined by what everyone thinks?

It's a massive contradiction, and everyone KNOWS it is. The difference is that they don't want to acknowledge it because their desire to be a good person doesn't out-weigh their desire to own the object of their interest. So the morality of magic isn't about the artist anymore, people choose to look the other way because they are getting something out of the action. The exposure is almost like a massive bribe. Bribes are giving someone money/anything to not do what they're responsible for doing. So, these exposure sites and videos are basically saying "I'll give you this secret as long as you don't tell anyone I did." So receive secrets in exchange for your confidentiality/silence. It's like trading a secret for another secret.

It's clear that what they are doing is bad, the apathy and greed just override the morality. It's unfortunate but there are no safeguards against human nature, it's impossible to stop people from wanting more. Where there is value, there are thieves.

It's almost comical that the people that seem to care so little for revealing secrets are trying their very best to not get caught/remain secretive. I hope we improve.
 
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Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
PAV. . . thanks for your insights, very parallel to my own thoughts.

We are all born, regardless the culture or social environment we live in, with a sense of right vs. wrong and those that knowingly STEAL . . . let me rephrase this . . .

There is a such thing as "borrowing" when it comes to the virtual world; long ago it was very common for magicians to swap books amongst themselves when all such things were tangible. Frequently two or three guys would toss money into a pot and buy a particular book that was a bit pricey and they'd share that material equally. This is what was normal for hundreds of years in most all vocations & fields of study. Then comes the Internet and behind it, greed driven by ego; especially within the magic community. But, the "problem" started way back in the early 70's when Chicago mage Jim Sommer's presented the Zig Zag at a magic convention a few blocks from the Magic Castle. . . a "illegal" copy of said piece. This event being the thing that sparked actions within our industry to "protect intellectual property" or, to be far more concise, to protect the profit margin of both, the innovator and builders seeking exclusivity.

The "Issue" goes far beyond the theft we're looking at and the tangled web involves a lot of political game playing that arguably, restricts access to certain types of effects to those that are not in positive standing with the powers that be. Sounds a bit sinister, doesn't it? But this too is a position in which ethics & morality play a part, so when it comes to the "rip off" scenario, there are times that the creator & source play a role via which transgressions through temptation happen.

The core to "the problem" we're talking about however, centers on "our" expectation -- the late 20th/early 21st century lie that we have the right to know about certain things or possess them even when we haven't the socially honored mode of resource; put another way, we are a nation of spoilt brats that expect things -- instant gratification. We don't do well with the word "NO" or having to play "by the rules". . . and as has been said in the above post, we lie to ourselves when it comes to our act to knowingly steal. . . but this brings us back to what I call "borrowing" in our virtual world.

How can we loan or share a book in the internet era? How can magic clubs offer a club library when all there is, is an eBook collection?

Based on the selfishness of many of today's magic contributors, libraries are guilty of copyright infringement; any vehicle that permits FREE access to an author's contributions and thus, no compensation to that writer, is now viewed as an immoral and criminal thing. What's that say about our society?

So Let the Hair Splitting Begin. . .
There are many that do share eBooks in our world and by that standard the general understanding is that before using the material in said book/source, the borrower will invest in and purchase said tome. . . as a writer I understand the frustration of this, but as a consumer, I can understand why it's a pragmatic path . . . far too much CRAP on the market thanks to self-publishing sources.

When it comes to an effect however. . . we can't "loan" the book without expectation of use -- use without direct compensation to the originator. This is where things start to hurt, but the fact is designers have rarely seen any form of compensation for developing an effect UNLESS they were the manufacturer or someone bought the manufacturing rights from them. The idea of on-going royalties is relatively new; a result to that famed Zig Zag argument of the early 70s followed by the issues surrounding Stinemeyer's ORIGAMI Box (also sold by Jim Sommers based on a slightly different method, as the Ninja Box). . . and so things have evolved to what we have today. . . the makers of effects or gimmicks placing serious constraints (demands) on their "children" . . . licensing various levels of performance rights and as my old producer used to say, "Creating a Trolly Car Marketing Path that ding, ding, ding's you for life".

I've rambled significantly here for the sake of history & clarification, the bottom line however is a simple one; when you knowingly seek out an illegal source such as a torrent/file share copy of a current "hot" effect or book/video YOU ARE A THIEF -- PERIOD!

If you use that material as currency (trade & barter), especially on a large scale, you are a Pirate . . . you are benefiting from someone elses' passion and hard work and sadly, this attitude has become more than prevalent in places south of the American boarder and much of Asian (China being the #1 culprit).

We see and hear tons of people in the forums condemning such things and indirectly denying their involvement in such crimes, but the fact is that someone supports these antics and it has to be people from within our craft or else others wouldn't go to the lengths they must go to gain the material for distribution -- demand is always the catalyst for theft & deception.
 
Jan 29, 2011
56
0
The District
Pav and Craig, you've laid out a good summary of the issues.

I've always used the analogy of a red light at 3am where there are absolutely no cars on the road anywhere.
Do you stop and wait as the law says you should?
Do you slow down to confirm there are no cars/cops around, and then go through it?
Do you just blow through it because you "know" there are no cars around at this time of night?
[That's not an example of morals per se, but doing what's right or wrong based on what *you yourself* feel is right or wrong.]

But digital piracy is in the shady area of what's right and wrong because you hear "digital piracy is wrong because of X, Y, and Z" [mostly in the case of Hollywood not getting its monies from pirated digital movies] but if you continue to steal digital materials, which are easily accessible via torrents on the internet, and you don't get caught -- you don't see the resultant harm... then there's no reinforcement that it is wrong.
So people continue to do it.

In a community-based performance art (magicians, comedians) the closest thing to getting caught and feeling that it's absolutely wrong is if you rip off another performers trick/act/character/script/joke/routine and perform it publicly in the exact same manner, get caught by someone influential in the business, and then get publicly shamed & ostracized. [Though I'm partial to a classic painful "tar & feathering", hehe!]
 

yyyyyyy

Elite Member
Apr 7, 2012
537
12
PAV. . . thanks for your insights, very parallel to my own thoughts.

We are all born, regardless the culture or social environment we live in, with a sense of right vs. wrong and those that knowingly STEAL . . . let me rephrase this . . .

Our viewpoints are actually more similar than you think. To be honest, I agree with both sides, I think we are both correct. Humans are not necessarily born with morals in my eyes, they are born with the capacity to HAVE morals. THAT'S what differentiates us from animals. We can disagree with the world. We can look at something and say it's incorrect. No other animal can do this. However, the morals that you come to acquire are learned from somewhere.

Why do we have parents? They tell us not to lie or to steal, they keep us alive and give us the tools to STAY alive and loved. That is the very start of the development of moral code, the parental input. If that stage is messed up, your moral code could be very damaged and unfortunately, this is a fairly common event.

As for the difference between thieves and pirates, you've clearly got more knowledge on the subject and I lacked the terminology to effectively describe my views. I used piracy as a sort of broad term, forgive my temporary ignorance.

"Demand is always the catalyst for theft and deception." Very true words. I feel that it's more than just demand though, I think the key is "Denial". If they CAN'T acquire something for free or legally otherwise, than they resort to other means. So it's a combination of the two really, there must be a certain amount of hype and value and they must not be able to get their hands on the information/object. It's a bit unfortunate really.
 
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