Morgician, please take a little more time to read through posts with a more open mindset before making so many assumptions and criticisms. You seem to have a need to preach your point here, but extrapolating from what I have said and basing your arguments such extrapolations is going to help neither you or I, or anyone else reading this thread, for that matter.
morgician said:
This takes an understanding of how people think, and if you don't think changine one card, then the entire deck washes away the first one and creates outs for the audience, I fear you may not have a solid understanding of how people view magic.
So if I don't think like you, then I don't understand how people view magic? Thanks for those wise words which you have backed up with no supporting reasoning or evidence.
In case you're interested, here's my true opinion, and I'll try to give you some reasoning, too. So, how do people view magic? Broad question - I'll make it a little more contextual. How would people view a routine consisting of a single card color change followed by a full deck change, versus one or the other? In truth, it depends entirely on how they are performed. If you let the spectator view each effect as a magician does, as single effects one after the other, then I believe your conclusion of undermining the first is probably close to reality. However, when you build a routine, you don't have to make this distinct separation. You create a flow of magic that doesn't necessarily have delimited "tricks". Changing the color of a single card could easily bring meaning to the second phase. Maybe a spectator touching a card changes it's color? This is demonstrated with one card, then they run their finger along the rest of the deck and it too changes color. I'd personally say this could strengthen the effect of a colour changing deck. The first phase isn't undermined by the deck changing, but rather it enhances the overall routine by adding meaning.
I hope you can now see that, as you suggested later in your post, I am not confusing theme with effect. This is an extrapolation. I agree that it is not enough to simply increase the scale of the effect, but to build on the meaning of the effect in the direction of some kind of conclusion (a "middle" leading towards an "end"). You can do this with completely different effects, you can do it with IDENTICAL effects. What is important is that there is meaning to doing it a second time beyond "yeah, I can do it even better than I just showed you, too".
so, stick with my comparisions to see clearly how this can change the impact
That seems perfectly fair, I'm sorry. Ignore any examples I give because you don't think they're any good? Apologies for not realising how much more important your opinion is than mine.
When I wrote...
huruey said:
It's not about forking out as many effects as possible. What is important is direction and meaning.
You replied by saying...
morgician said:
I agree, however, I also believe that a set is better with a beginning, middle and end.
The above is another example of how you have extrapolated from my post. You imply that I disagree that a routine has a beginning, a middle and an end. At what point did I say otherwise? In fact, "direction" implies such an order.
morgician said:
I personally believe that if I only have a limited time to show someone something, I won't show two things similar - it doens't show variety or my range as an entertainer. Also, I find the first two effects to be very limiting in showing my personality and the kind of impact they will have.
That's you though, isn't it? I know this is a difficult concept to grasp, but we're not talking about you. You like a variety of different effects, that's great, you're a brilliant all round performer - I get that, now - but my suggestion was in response to what AlfieWhattamMagic asked. From what I gathered, the question seemed to be coming from a beginner, and so I tried to answer in a way that would be helpful to him. Rather than saying "it won't work, try something else", I tried to find something that would work.
Joe, you seem to miss the point. These two effects have many issues with them...let me start:
- 2 out of 3 effects don't show variety...just that you can make cards change places. It almost smells like trick deck!
- Speaking of drick deck - how is he going to switch out the deck? Far easier if he does something different in the middle and puts the cards away...or he has to consider a strong deck switch - which may have heat on them. Done poorly for sure they will think one trick pony deck, followed by another.
I miss what point? You had not, in a previous post, made such a point regarding variety. Maybe you meant to, but you did not actually explain what you were trying to achieve with your examples. I took your "point" to be meaning undermining. In truth, did I miss the point, or did you simply not make it? Admittedly, it does help to undermine my argument by suggesting my incompetence. If that is how you like to approach an argument, so be it.
Two of the effects don't show variety... and you say I don't understand how people view the magic? If you don't want them to see two separate tricks, then you can do this in your presentation. That's the whole point of routining and building presentation. The emphasis is on what the audience sees, not was the effects technically are. Maybe the effects are technically very similar, that doesn't mean the presentation has to be. As I explained earlier, the first phase can be used to greatly enhance the second phase, or can simply help the direction of the presentation.
How will he switch out the deck? While this isn't at all relevant to to the argument at hand, he doesn't need to switch the deck. The first deck clearly goes away when the invisible deck is introduced. The audience can't see the invisible deck until you produce it however you like, maybe even simply by pulling it from your pocket. As long as there is a reason for it now being visible, which may simply be hat you now want them to be visible. The deck is already magical enough to be invisible, why not have it's visibility controllable?
- Everyone on this forum appears to do 3 tricks...Biddle trick...2CM and then ACR - then a few more kids actually buy some effect from this forum. This is new wave originality?!
I'm not even sure how you expect this to come into your argument. We weren't discussing originality. The audience isn't likely to have seen them anyway. Yes, I'm sure you're probably brilliant and original in all you do, but that doesn't really help those who are starting out and trying to perform what they can while also putting thought into how they present it.
In reply to this...
huruey said:
Ideally for the first two phases of this routine, they will not think they saw one trick, but they will think they saw a magician who could make cards magically swap places. That beats "He did one where a card came to the top, then one where two cards swapped places...".
You wrote...
morgician said:
Joe, naming what is worse than this doesn't mean it is good - I can say that dirt is better to eat than poop...but I wouldn't want to eat either. I think there is SO much more to magic than you guys realize, but it takes reading...and effort to find the right sources.
Poor analogy. You were arguing that the tricks should not be so similar that one undermines the other. I chose to illustrate how two different effects presented as such isn't necessarily stronger as you implied.
Your comments regarding your own experience and how read-up you are adds nothing to your argument. It merely demonstrates your ignorance and ego. You assume nobody else has the knowledge or experience and so you preach. Why do you assume this? Do you know all there is to know, and so you can tell when somebody is inexperienced or un-read?
morgician said:
In the end - if you feel this routine is what represents you - do it. It just makes my life easier, as I will stand out more...but harder if they see you, as I have to knock down a few magic walls you build by not thinking it through. Don't worry, early we all do it - but then again...I didn't have a forum with practiced well read magicians that do magic professionally to help me out.
Here you go with that blazing ego again. You know nothing about me yet you assume so much. And again with the extrapolation! I did not say I performed this routine. I don't. It was something I came up with quickly as a suggestion for the original question. I thought that much was clear. I was attempting to solve a presentational problem. The best you seem to have done is avoid it. Maybe your intentions were to help, but to me it seemed more like you were simply out to make you opinion seem the most important.
Joe