Jay Sankey on Fancy Decks

[Rabid]

"The Purloined Letter" by Edgar Allen Poe] is because it presented a very interesting principle: hiding in plain sight.

Never read that.
Have read a bit of Poe but not enough.
That mention has spurned me to pick up some of his stories again.

Sorry Steerpike, but I have to ask: are you attempting to alienate as many people as possible with each post you type here and on E? Is it, like, some sort of competition? Just wondering as i can't see how you benefit from it at all. I realise that you don't 'suffer fools' but...well, actually, I'll leave that there.


As for all this card business...well, is it only me that finds so much discussion (and god knows I've been as guilty as the next) on a subject that is so pointless to be so laughable? That came across really arrogant, but it isn't really. What is mean't by it is this:

does anyone really believe that if you perform a magic trick for someone using a deck of cards, that it's the colour or design of the cards that make them suspicious and in turn, using a deck that they've seen before, they will consider no trickery has taken place??

Come on people...subconcious or not, black deck or white, worker or hobbyist, that's surely absurd.

You've just made something happen that is clearly impossible, there really is only one place for them to go after first suspecting you of trickery. Their only other option is to believe that you actually performed magic, and lets be honest, there are more than enough nut-jobs wondering around this screwed up world...we don't need any more.




Rabid Out

 

[Steerpike]

Just wondering as i can't see how you benefit from it at all.

I don't. But I prefer honesty over biting my tongue in the face of ignorance.

 

[gamma105]

Do you perform professionally in restaurants/bars/strolling situations or mostly just for people you know?

The reason I ask is that in a crowded restaurant you don't have much time with each table. You certainly don't need ANY hurdles and I can guarantee that if you perform for 30 to 50 tables in a night the issue will come up. You don't have very long to make a good first impression so you must pay attention to the little details. Simon Lovell only performs with red backed bicycle decks because he feels that red is a "warm" color.

If you just perform for people you know then I'm sure the issue will not come up much if at all. Saying that it doesn't matter leads me to think that you don't perform for complete strangers very often.

Remember, you don't want to give them a way "out", a strange looking deck is an easy way to excuse the miracle they have seen, even if it has nothing to do with it. Lay people will grasp for anything....

Well said. I totally agree with you on this one.
IMO, we are not talking about how you present yourself/routine. I'm talking about the moment you bring the special decks out, people will have suspicion. Once they have a preconceived notion of suspecting a trick deck, what you do afterwards aren't as magical as they should be.
I try not using my own deck as much as possible. If it's for a party, I ask the hosts to have a few new decks ready. And depends on the situation, I give my deck away at the end.

 

[Steerpike]

If my last post was too abrasive, let's try something a little more light-hearted.

Let's play a couple games. Throughout this thread, find all the posts speaking out against custom cards. Replace all references to custom cards with references to coins not of your country. Half dollars, pennies, centavos, yen, old brass Chinese coins, toonies, whatever.

Now ask yourself: Is there any respected voice in the magic community who would really tell you that no working pro would ever think of using coins outside of his own country's currency because it would appear suspicious?

It sounds like decent logic on paper, but are any of you actually going to do it? Kind of sets up a weird double standard, doesn't it?

Here's another little game to play. Find all the namedrops. Find the brief references to recognizable names in the magic world who use nothing but red and/or blue backed Bikes.

Now try to match every one of them with a name that uses cards other than red and/or blue backed Bikes, custom or brand name. I'll get you started. Jeff McBride (his own brand of custom cards), Christian Chelman (jeu de Nall), Justin Miller (Vipers and Guardians), David Blaine (split spades), Kenton Knepper (Magic Castle decks), and Daniel Garcia (Tally-Hos). Once you have that list, decide for yourself whether namedropping is all that impressive.

Who else would like to play these games?

 

[nnickerson]

Most of those cards are just for advertising. When you see McBride or any of the other great stage card manipulators, I can guarantee you they aren't using those cards. The cards are being sold. That's there main purpose. These cards are cheaply made and horrible to handle. They bring in money. For the close-up guys, the only time you ever see them using the custom cards are on the demo videos. They usually use these "flashy new cards" to target the younger demographic.

When it comes to xcm use custom cards whenever you want. Stage manipulation fine. But close-up card magic, I will never use them.

Someone said that Guardians are close to regular bikes. How? You can't tell the difference between the regulars and the spear holding guy killing someone?

Often it just takes away from the effects. Unless you like explaining yourself at the very beginning of every performance I wouldn't use them.

Nate

 

[nnickerson]

One other thing.

Coins can't be brought into the picture. The whole reason that people notice cards and not coins can be explained psychologically.

You have to look at it from a spectator's point of view. Coins are familiar to them. Coins from a different country are still familiar to them. It's something they can relate to. They use currency on a day-to-day basis.

Cards are seperate from this. They don't associate with them they way magicians do. People have seen normal Bicycles for a long time. This sets up a pattern in their mind. When this cycle is broken, it triggers a reaction.

Remember the saying, "People fear what they do not know". Well guess what, it refers to people reacting to an uncontrolled stimulus. This means they react to something that isn't ordinary to them. They don't fear the cards, they just can't relate to them. This sparks curiousity.

If you want me to really go in depth, I can. But I've written a 2000 word research paper on this subject in my college psychology class. My information can be backed up with a considerable amount of evidence.

Hope this helps!

Nate

 

[Steerpike]

For the close-up guys, the only time you ever see them using the custom cards are on the demo videos. They usually use these "flashy new cards" to target the younger demographic.

So when Justin Miller tells us how often he uses Vipers, he's lying?

Again, I also reference Kenton Knepper. He touched briefly on this subject in Miracles of Suggestion, a great manuscript.

Unless you like explaining yourself at the very beginning of every performance I wouldn't use them.

As per my prediction, nobody read my post I brought over from Ellusionist. It seems the main rule of the internet is the amount of actual discussion you get is inversely proportional to the amount of thought and effort put into your arguments. Somebody please prove me wrong.

Remember the saying, "People fear what they do not know". Well guess what, it refers to people reacting to an uncontrolled stimulus. This means they react to something that isn't ordinary to them. They don't fear the cards, they just can't relate to them. This sparks curiousity.

That's the thing, though. How many people in Pittsburgh do you think handle Japanese yen or Mexican cantavos with any degree of regularity? Currency is common to them, but in the form of the American dollar. A fair number of my spectators have never seen a British penny in person before. They know what it is, but they've never handled one.

The same goes for my Ghost deck. They know what it is, but they've never seen it before. But I figured out a way to use it to my advantage and allay suspicion at the same time.

 

[nnickerson]

Did I say Justin Miller was lying? No. The majority doesn't use them. I can't name every single magician that uses them. If it works for him great.

"Arguments" are started on these forums by young inexperienced magicians that think they know everything about magic. Should there be an argument over a deck of cards? Heck no. It's the fact that people get offended when someone challenges the information they were told.

You just stated my very point about the money. You said that your spectators know what it is, but they've never handled one. That's exactly my point. When there is knowledge of the object curiousity is lost. Therefore, they don't react. When you perform a Scotch and Soda routine, how many times does someone ask to examine the Mexican coin just because it's Mexican?

Normally people get excited to see different currency. This is why Jamie Schoolcraft sells different types of coins. How many times have you seen an East African dime? I've never seen one. But they sell them on his site for magicians. People are less aware of gimmicked coins than gimmicked cards.

Ghost decks and Black Tiger decks aren't really unnatural. They are just a different colored deck of bicycles. News flash, they are selling these everywhere now. Now that they are in the public eye more, curiousity is lost.

Nate

 

[harapanong]

Good lord... just use whatever you want and fancy. There's no need to get heated over laminated cardboard, be it coloured, black or white.

Everyone has their opinions. No need to rip up other people's thoughts to present your own.

Plus, is such a discussion greatly helping magic? No.

- harapan. magic!

 

[SleepingJag]

I don't understand why anyone cares what others think.

Jay has his own thoughts of the "Fancy" decks and other have totally different thoughts. Who is right and who is wrong? No one is right and no one is wrong because that is a opinion.

Now here are my thoughts and opinion. (they aren't right or wrong they just work for me)

Now I like the fancy decks (Ghost, Tigers, Guardians and so on) but for the most part I don't use them on gigs or on shows. Why... not because I think that people will suspect them as gimmicked decks because I don't want to. The fancy decks are for friends and intimate affairs. When I am performing for friends I have more time to create more of a storyline and to have fun with my friends.

But it is all a personal choice. It doesn't matter what deck you choice to perform with what matters is if the spectators are enjoying what you are performing and if you are having a good time performing.

So get out there and perform and have a good time.

 

[Steerpike]

When you perform a Scotch and Soda routine, how many times does someone ask to examine the Mexican coin just because it's Mexican?

Quite often actually. I use English pennies, incidentally.

And I know this has something to do with how I'm presenting it, so I've been working on adjusting my scripting. It's not the coin's fault, it's mine.

People are less aware of gimmicked coins than gimmicked cards.

Less aware does not mean oblivious.

Good lord... just use whatever you want and fancy. There's no need to get heated over laminated cardboard, be it coloured, black or white.

Everyone has their opinions. No need to rip up other people's thoughts to present your own.

Plus, is such a discussion greatly helping magic? No.

My problem with this thread is that people are making massive excuses for themselves and passing judgment on others who disagree out of sheer preference.

My stance has always been that if you don't like fancy cards, don't use them. But don't make lame excuses for yourself saying crap like, "Oh, they'll think I'm using fake cards and it's all the deck's fault."

It's the excuses people are making for themselves that has my patience on the edge right now. It's not the fault of the tool, it's the fault of the worker, and most magicians refuse to accept this.

 

[Hart Keene]

Steerpike,

Hey bud, you sound pretty heated in some of your posts. It really isn't that big of a deal. If you enjoy using the custom decks so be it. Your experience has led you to believe that it doesn't matter what kind of deck you use and thats fine. I have been performing professionally for about 5 years now and my experiences have led me to think the way I think about this particular issue.

I am glad we all feel differently! Magic would be pretty boring if we all did the same effects with the same deck of cards, don't you think? Its good that we mix it up. You should be happy that myself and others use "ordinary" decks, otherwise there would be no such thing as "custom" decks! lol You wouldn't be able to present them like you do.

All in all guys, there are so few magicians out there and SO MANY LAY PEOPLE I think most are just stoked to see magic, regardless of the type of deck you use. Hanging around on forums tends to make the magic world feel "big" but it really is very small. So get out and perform, with any deck you want! Chances are they have never even seen magic up close, how would they know what deck you are "supposed" to use!



Steerpike said, "I had a whole slew of reponses ready to go for posts in this thread, but it was depressing me how many stupid arguments I had to refute. Let me just say instead that this thread has further cemented my disdain for other magicians and has only encouraged me to be even pickier in the company I keep."

Pretty harsh bud, we are all on the same team here. Sounds like you are pretty angry at magicians as a whole, regardless of the topic...

 

[NlightN]

yeah some here gets really fired up cause we are bashing their custome decks. but then again most here are indeed a bunch of kids. including me.

 

[Hart Keene]

yeah some here gets really fired up cause we are bashing their custome decks. but then again most here are indeed a bunch of kids. including me.

Notice I was only here when the cafe was down...Now that its back up I probably won't be here as often.

Oh, and I wasn't bashing anything. Just speaking from my own experience...

 

[Steerpike]

Steerpike,

Hey bud, you sound pretty heated in some of your posts. It really isn't that big of a deal. If you enjoy using the custom decks so be it. Your experience has led you to believe that it doesn't matter what kind of deck you use and thats fine. I have been performing professionally for about 5 years now and my experiences have led me to think the way I think about this particular issue.

Let me clarify here. I have already stated that if someone doesn't want to use a custom deck, they won't. That's fine.

What I dislike here is that most magicians simply will not say, "It doesn't suit my style." No, instead they make excuses. They blame the deck's design for a performance not going the way they wanted. How much sense does that make?

That kind of attitude poisons the community, and it drives me up the wall everytime I see it parrotted like the latest political talking point.

Don't use custom decks if you don't like them. But don't make excuses for yourself that have no basis in reality. I advocate people to use whatever works for them. For some people, that means regular Bikes and outside of that nothing but borrowed objects. For Jay Sankey, that works. For some people, it means using multiple unusual props, heavy ambience, custom decks, antiques, and elaborate scripting. For Christian Chelman, that works.

That's what it all comes down to.

Pretty harsh bud, we are all on the same team here. Sounds like you are pretty angry at magicians as a whole, regardless of the topic...

The blatant truth is that I dislike the artistic community in general. I'm extremely picky about the company I keep.

For the most part, artists (and this does include magicians) are petty, backstabbing elitists and/or egotists who buy into political infighting at the drop of a hat. They're poisoning their own scene and don't even know it. They won't kill it by any stretch of the imagination, but they hold it back. They never admit to mistakes, they rant on and on about how things should be, and they expect the world to change to suit them.

I've come to this conclusion after years of trying to fit into these various scenes. It was a period of my life where I was seeking approval and acceptance. But after seeing the way things go in these communities, I realized I didn't want or need any of it. And I choose to express my conclusions with acidic, blunt honesty.

You say we're all on the same team. No we're not. Because the only opposition we actually have is from each other.

 

[Hart Keene]

Steerpike,

Then why come here? If you don't like the community then why hang around in forums such as these? Why aren't you out there performing? Why worry about these "scenes". Magic is for lay people, not magicians.

You just seem like a very angry person. Do you think this comes across when you perform for lay folk?

Don't take this the wrong way but I wonder if you alienate yourself from others(magicians) with your attitude.

Just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living? What are your goals in magic?

 

[Hart Keene]

You say we're all on the same team. No we're not. Because the only opposition we actually have is from each other.

If you go back and read your posts you will see that they are very confrontational. So you are saying that you are part of the problem, right? That is, the whole opposition thing...

 

[Steerpike]

Then why come here? If you don't like the community then why hang around in forums such as these? Why aren't you out there performing? Why worry about these "scenes". Magic is for lay people, not magicians.

Just because there are a few gangrenous limbs doesn't mean the whole thing is beyond saving.

Though the majority of people in any given artistic community are those I can't get along with, there are those who are at the very least willing to hear me out. And there are those with whom I sympathize and connect with. I can stomach any number of rabble if it means having just one more strong, intelligent friend in my life.

You just seem like a very angry person. Do you think this comes across when you perform for lay folk?

Not at all. I treat my audiences like old friends. After all, art doesn't mean anything if there's no one else to take it in. Without an audience, it's just masturbation.

Just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living? What are your goals in magic?

Magic is one of my many pursuits. I'm also a filmmaker, musician, and writer hoping to branch out into photography, digital image altering (photoshop et al), and perhaps even video game design. A media Renaissance man in other words. My site goes live the first week of the new year.

To continue would require more time and prose, and I think I've derailed this thread enough.

If you go back and read your posts you will see that they are very confrontational. So you are saying that you are part of the problem, right? That is, the whole opposition thing...

Admittedly, when I typed that up I was in an exceptionally foul mood and the exasperation and frustation I was feeling toward the general attitude going around the thread only exacerbated the problem.

Doesn't really excuse my behaviour, I know. It would have been more tactful to simply say how disappointed I was in the attitudes being conveyed here.

However, I will apologize for the expression of my thoughts, but not for the sentiment.

 

[Hart Keene]

Just because there are a few gangrenous limbs doesn't mean the whole thing is beyond saving.

Though the majority of people in any given artistic community are those I can't get along with, there are those who are at the very least willing to hear me out. And there are those with whom I sympathize and connect with. I can stomach any number of rabble if it means having just one more strong, intelligent friend in my life.



Not at all. I treat my audiences like old friends. After all, art doesn't mean anything if there's no one else to take it in. Without an audience, it's just masturbation.



Magic is one of my many pursuits. I'm also a filmmaker, musician, and writer hoping to branch out into photography, digital image altering (photoshop et al), and perhaps even video game design. A media Renaissance man in other words. My site goes live the first week of the new year.

To continue would require more time and prose, and I think I've derailed this thread enough.



Admittedly, when I typed that up I was in an exceptionally foul mood and the exasperation and frustation I was feeling toward the general attitude going around the thread only exacerbated the problem.

Doesn't really excuse my behaviour, I know. It would have been more tactful to simply say how disappointed I was in the attitudes being conveyed here.

However, I will apologize for the expression of my thoughts, but not for the sentiment.

Cool, well, I wish you the best of luck, with whatever deck you decide to use

 

[Justin Miller]

If you are a magician then it is your job to use EVERYTHING in your presence to bring about that magical moment. I use black cards when I do ANY thread work, LOOPS or The Cloak for reasons that are quite obvious for us magicians. But for my audience they become a conduit in which the energy of their thoughts are trapped by the black colored cards...meaning this, I explain that we are going to try an experiment in thought transference. I use these cards because I have found in my experimentation that for some reason black responds as a conduit for energy than say red or blue. Then I give them an example of what I am painting in their mind. I use the principle of a hot day with the sun blazing down and dark colored clothes..you get VERY hot VERY quick. But with other colors (red-blue..common bicycle colors) you do not get hot....and then so on.

So, yes I think that if you can creatively place the cards in a setting that they are familiar with..you can get away with anything.

Justin N. Miller