"Limited" trend is shocking

Aug 17, 2010
411
4
an appearing cane for example, costs about 45p to produce but costs around £20 to buy yet it is a prop hundreds of magicians buy. Take any other living item, an iphone, costs around £5 to produce materials but they can be sold for upwards of £200.

What's your source on this? I'm not sure an iPhone gets built for that little.
 

Justin.Morris

Elite Member
Aug 31, 2007
2,793
888
Canada
www.morrismagic.ca
There are fare more important things for me to spend my time upset over. This is quite trivial, and in the grand scheme of things, not a big deal to get another chance to buy a sold out deck of limited edition cards. Oh, the travesty.

That said, this is why I appreciate T11 business ethics. I agree with Lyle, I don't think T11 has ever been duplicitous in their business to the public.
 
Ooo I really need to add something in here, because I think I wasn't clear on something.

I believe Theory11 has one of the best reputations on the market, and they are very transparent with how they deal with their supporters. When I said that companies like Theory11 and Ellusionist have done to card decks what Pokemon did to baseball cards; that was completely separate from my statement that followed which addressed the op's view on what D&D did with their cards.

I have never had a bad experience with theory11 or its people yet.
 
Feb 4, 2008
959
3
Okay let me chime in as a guy who has done a ridiculous amount of card reviews. This may sound like a, "You should know better," post and for that I apologize. The biggest misconception I hear about card collecting from magicians is the idea that it is a "side hobby" that is common among people who practice the bigger hobby, that being card magic. I hear this from guys who really don't like the development of the custom card market and I hear this from people who actively buy and collect custom cards. The problem with that is that card collecting isn't a "side hobby." It is a completely separate hobby all together.

Magicians who decide they like cards and want to start collecting them need to get out a bit and shop around for forums that are dedicated to card collecting. Sure there are a few magician/card collectors who know there stuff and can offer a bit of advice but that advice wont be as educated as someone who really collects cards. I see a lot of cards that were released within the last 5 years that are already going for over $100.00 on E-bay. That's rediculous guys....that's a bubble and sooner or later it will crash. No doubt magicians have driven up the price of Jerry's Nuggets but even without that J-nuggs would sell for $150-$250. Why? Because the J-nugg is a 40 year old card that had a limited run and used a type of processing that doesn't exist any more. Therefore, J-nuggs have value even among hard core card collectors who could care less that Dai Vernon used to use them or that the Bucks and Lee Asher featured them in a few of their DVDs. A J-Nugg is a rare and collectible card. From my exploration of the collecting forums I'll tell you right now that the custom card that most peeks the interest of serious collectors is first edition Black Tigers(first of the custom decks that was printed prior to the UV500.) I haven't checked out collecting websites for a while but I suspect that cards printed on UV500 will start growing in popularity among collectors. Why? Because the UV500 is gone for good.

So what should you take away from this? First, if you want to collect cards join a few card collecting websites and try to learn a bit about what makes a deck valuable for the long haul. When you see a rare deck of cards printed in the 1930s that is being sold for $75 next to a rare deck of cards printed in 2008 being sold for the same price it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that 2008 card is in the midst of a bubble in the market. Second, If you don't want to get serious enough about card collecting to start considering joining some specialty websites then quit trying to collect. Instead, buy cards that you will use. I have a crap load of custom cards. I don't consider any of them collection assets. Instead, I have developed enough of a "feel" for cards that I really can appreciete the difference between a $5.00 deck printed off the web press using Q1 processing versus a standard run $2.00 deck of Bikes or Tally Hos printed with less stringent standards. Thus I can justify the price I pay for those cards. If you can't tell the difference in how the custom decks "feel" and you don't know much about the bigger world of card collecting....then DON'T BUY THEM! You will get burned sooner or later. This bubble will burst some day and when it does I will be stuck with a bunch of cards that I can enjoy for their intrinsic value. Imagine a day when that happens. A day in which every deck in your collection has lost its value and each one is worth about $5.00. If you are still happy with your collection then continue buying custom cards but if you would feel "burned" then get out now.
 
Feb 7, 2011
362
1
Magic is dead.

J.

Ah i dont think it is. It's just confused. As am I with the number of card mechanics becoming pseudo-motivational speakers overnight. Who would of guessed that playing card obsessed recluses would be dolling out inspirational life advice by the bucket load. Though i do have a soft spot for daniel madison and chris brown.
 

formula

Elite Member
Jan 8, 2010
968
5
Magic is dead.

J.
Maybe so, but that has no connection to "limited" cards and ways magic companies market cards/products.

Just as a quick note, from someone who makes 50% of their living marketing magic, (the other 50% is made up of performing said material) what you're paying for when you buy magic isn't the gimmick or the DVD. You're buying the secret and/or the routine.

To give an example, ebooks cost nothing to produce, minus the time/opp cost. Yet people will still throw a lot of money at them. Paul V was selling his HCE ebook for $1,000. People paid it because it was a VERY well thought out routine.

Manufacturing cost is irrelevant when buying magic.

DC

I'm a big supporter of huge mark ups on genuinely good effects to keep them out of reach of everyone except professional magicians, but as JDENredden pointed out, that has no relevance to a deck of cards that has no secret but is purely a deck of cards with custom touches. A secret to a good trick can be priceless and timeless, a deck of cards is good to no one after it has been used up.

Not intending to start any fights, but when people get upset about mark ups then how can they expect companies to make a profit? Take an appearing cane for example, costs about 45p to produce but costs around £20 to buy yet it is a prop hundreds of magicians buy. Take any other living item, an iphone, costs around £5 to produce materials but they can be sold for upwards of £200. The consumer world is the same for both magic and general consumption items.
You have been side tracked from the topic at hand. The comments about rrp and profit margins aren't what this thread is about. This thread is about how we shouldn't let companies pull the wool over our eyes anymore. iphones may only be £5 in raw materials but an iphone as a finished unit costs approximately £120 to manufacture, not £5. The difference here, which makes that argument irrelevant is that iphones cost so much money because you're paying for the services the phone provides. Cards and magic tricks provide no services and have no running costs once purchased.

No offence formula but a while back you posted up about going onto Penn and Teller: Fool Us as you had something that would change the world of magic for everyone (http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?34910-Fool-Us-still-taking-auditions). How many times have we heard this and it hasn't been true? Pretty much 99% of the time.
I am very sorry if you don't get my humor. It must suck, for you.
 
I posted a very similar thread to this over at the Crown. Here is what I said over there

Ok so I've made it pretty clear in previous posts that I kinda think it is ridiculous about how many new decks are coming out. It used to be that only companies like E, T11, BBM would release a deck of cards, however now everyone and their mother has a new deck out. I know that a lot of the members here are card collectors and will not agree with me at all about this, however as someone who solely purchases cards to use them, I figured I'd post my thoughts on the subject.

For me the one thing that bothers me the most is that when a deck comes out it's instantly rare. It seems that the majority of cards are made nowadays for collectors, which honestly isn't that big of a demographic compared to people who are just magicians. It's really quite frustrating for me that when I see a really cool deck that I'd like to get my hands on so I can use them, that they're sold out within the first 15 minutes. This is extra annoying to me, if I was only able to get one deck, especially if I really like the deck. I know that card collecting is very popular, but I think that all of the custom deck makers are forgetting the main reason as to why people started making custom cards in the first place... so people could perform with them.

For example I know a ton of people who are selling the first edition crown decks on ebay for a lot of money, when I purchased my crown decks, I got them so I could perform with them. Even though they are 1st edition/rare I use them for casual performances, gigs, or practicing because I like they way they look, handle, and feel. I also know that if I were to ever get my hands on some Smoke and Mirrors, I would use them too, not let them sit on my shelf and do nothing.

The other thing that kind of confuses me is I hear a lot of collectors complain when a deck is printed with a one way back. I can understand why a magician would not want a one way deck, but I don't see why a collector who only plans on displaying a deck would be bothered by that. I guess this isn't really something that bothers me, but more intrigues me more.

Now I don't want people to think I'm bashing collecting, I'm not at all. In addition to being a huge magic geek I'm also a really big Star Wars fan, and I have my fair share of collectibles. I know at this point you're prob thinking to yourself "But Josh, keeping Star Wars figures on Display and not using them is the same as keeping a deck on display and not using them." The difference is when I was younger I did play with those Star Wars figures, I got into Star Wars originally because I loved the movies and wanted to play with the figures. As I got older I played with them less and less but I still collected them because it reminded me of my childhood. I could be wrong but I doubt that most card collectors got into card collecting immediately. My belief is that most card collectors started out as magicians using these custom decks and liked them a lot that they decided to own another deck to display.

I don't want it to come off like I hate card collectors and I think that no one should collect cards just to own, far from it! I just wish that when companies create a custom deck that they make enough for everyone to be happy. The main issue I have is not the fact that people collect cards, but that there aren't enough cards for performers like myself to use and for collectors to own.

Ok I'll end my rant here. I really hope that this didn't offend any card collectors. I really would like to hear your thoughts. I just figured that I would post my thoughts here as it may strike up an interesting debate.
 

JD

Jul 5, 2009
638
1
Longview, Texas
Gotta say Formula, I agreed entirely with your opening post. All of it.
I got screwed on the LTD Deck deal. My package worth $200 shipped out maybe 2 hours before they said people who payed over $150 would get two LTD decks for free. On Facebook, their status over it got around 50 comments posted by angry customers who were in the same boat as me. E's basic reply: Deal with it. It's a promotion.

While that may be true, it also shows how arrogant you are to think that your customers will still come back to you after all is said and done. They may be right and have customers come back. But they will eventually start to lose fans of theirs. It's a clever marketing effect, sure, but at the same time it is hurting their business.
 

Bizzaro

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2007
464
10
Vegas
www.smappdooda.com
Playing cards aside, I have seen many times something is going to be "limited" and when it turns out to be popular they release more. This is a poor business practice. I released an effect called Double Stuft many years ago. Limited to 100 pieces and despite offers to re-release it I have said no.

As for tricks and card decks, I'd go with my friend's philosophy on tattoos. Wait a year, if you REALLY still want it, then get it.

They call them impulse buys for a reason.
 
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