"Limited" trend is shocking

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by formula, Dec 20, 2011.

  1. Over the last 5 years custom playing cards have had a serious boom in popularity, which is really great because we have a choice of so many beautiful decks.
    My issue is that companies like T11, DnD and Ellusionist are incredibly misleading when they use the term "limited". Because of the time zone and site crash I was unable to buy v6 S&M, so I was happy to hear when they did a second release, despite the fact they bumped the price up to almost $10 per deck and we couldn't buy less than a brick. They were never to be sold again, a couple days ago DnD announced that more would be sold. They "found" a supply stashed at the back of their warehouse. So, cards that were printed in "limited" quantities sold out, never to be sold again only to be sold again, twice. What kind of crap is that?

    David Blaine released his variety box earlier which has cards like the White Lions, that once sold out, would never be sold again.....
    I just got an email from E saying they are giving away decks of gold Arcanes with orders over $75, they did the same with red Artifice last week.
    T11 have done similar promotions with sold out decks as well.

    It is very likely that people from E and DnD won't see this but can you please stop bs'ing us about your "limited" cards. It's a cheap marketing strategy that is working but it's also so dishonest and misleading to everyone that supports you.

    And while you're at it, stop making trailers that glorify the tricks. "Can be performed surrounded" often means it can but ideally shouldn't be performed surrounded. Start and end "clean" often means bringing in and switching out a gimmick. "Completely examinable" usually means after some sort of clean up. If trailers were more realistic then maybe people would pirate magic as much. I don't blame people for illegally downloading stuff, since they're being lied to in a lot of trailers.

    So pissed off at the general state of magic.
  2. Wouldn't* pirate as much, I think is what you meant to say.

    I agree with you to some extent, some things are misleading, and the whole custom deck thing is very accurate. I'm not too hardcore into custom decks, although I do have a good handful of them, I'm not sitting at my screen waiting for the countdown to hit zero to shell out a bunch of cash on fancy pieces of cardboard, though.
  3. Yep, I meant wouldn't Jacob. I don't condone it but I understand why people do. I'm by no means a hardcore card collector either, I like to get 1 or 2 of the new decks to have fun with but I feel like we're being wronged by magic companies. I feel sorry for people who buy a few bricks on release because they're told that's their only chance at owning them.
  4. Hey formula. It's very easy to see why you are upset. I buy the "RARE"cards strictly to resale later. I also understand what you are saying about the trailers. You have to take the good and bad of a magic producer/company and use better judgment on buying tricks that sound to good to be true. I really like theory 11 and feel that they are a honest company but we stand in different shoes. I hope the holidays treat you well.
  5. +1 and Amen brother. A comment on the E Facebook page kinda sums it up (and no I'm not singling out Ellusionist):

    That's regarding the 75$ gold arcanes.

    This is why I really apply the 6-month rule to cards. At one point, I reallllly wanted Deck One, but now, I want the Monarchs. It changes, you know? Each new deck is better than the last. and many are "limited"
  6. I feel like only the original print of Monarchs are going to be the only ones that will genuinely NEVER be printed again. I feel like that E comment does sum it up pretty well.

    If companies were totally honest though, how do you think that would affect sales? If the ad said "angle restrictions are this this and this." or "This will require a good amount of work to perform and does require that you switch out the gimmick...." People who want instant gratification will starting complaining. I think it's the reviewers job to tell us where an effect's ad is honest and where there are some grey areas. I really like Wizard Product Review because they do tell you everything about it without exposing it either (unless Craig demos a trick and flashes, which happens more often than not).
  7. Trouble is, people fall for it and so companies will carry on doing this kind of thing. It's basic marketing really. How many times have you seen a trainler for a film and it looks awesome, then you watch it and feel like you've just thrown 2 hours + of your life down the toilet. like someone else on here says, wait a few months and see what happens. If the custom deck doesn't reappear, chances are it's not actually THAT good of a deck. If a deck of cards is truely a great deck, they will make them forever because people will want them, surely?
  8. Love how, after i spent 170$ on smoke and other stuff at E (not mentioning paying 50$ express shipping and its a week late/lost in the mail) and at the 75$ mark get a chance at some tattoos ill never use

    A few weeks later, they add 2 ltd decks, gold arcane etc lol

    Business wise, its ****ing brilliant

    But seeing as I am on the consumer end of things, this is ****ing bull****.
  9. #9 Mat La Vore, Dec 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2011
    Sounds to me like there's some self-created victims of consumerism here.

    Here's my advice:

    1. Stop collecting cards. (I'd even suggest not to collect anything, but that's a separate topic.) Buy something for its practical function, not the make-believe value you're projecting onto it. If a deck of cards really does add something to what you're trying to accomplish, go for it. Otherwise, jut pick up a deck of of Bikes and get on with it.

    2. Do your homework before you buy an effect. You do not need to make a decision whether or not to buy something based on the moment you first see the trailer of an effect. There will always be people jumping up and taking out their wallets as soon as they see something they like. Make use of that. Most of those people can be found online here, the Magic Cafe, and several other places. Ask questions and read reviews and discussions after an effect has been out for a bit; learn if what you're buying is going to fit what you need. The better you know yourself as a performer, the easier it is to identify if something is going to work for you. But all the information you need to know as to whether an effect is going to work for you or not you can find. I've always been able to.

    Are magic trailers sometimes dishonest in what they show and claim? Absolutely. Do companies use marketing techniques that turn people off? Of course. Who's fault is it though if you know this and fall prey to it anyhow? It's yours.

    Keep your wallet in your pocket when you see something you like. Stop collecting cardboard boxes wrapped in cellophane. Have the patience and intelligence to educate yourself about a product before you buy it.

    Also, let's not pretend that if companies were more forthright there would be less pirating. The truth of the matter is the people pirating magic would be doing it anyways, because they're the people who have the same mindset that keeps them from: doing their homework before they buy something, waiting until a product has been out for a bit so they can learn more about it, and feel the need to buy everything they like. They're people that constantly need instant gratification, are compulsive, and are addicted to indulging in consumerism. The reason those people are pirating magic is much, much more about who they are as people than it is about sticking it to a company they feel has wronged them.

    Hope that helps.

    Happy Magic :)
  10. the reason I don't like all these awesome cool decks is because of the price, (I cannot afford bikes most of the time) and they sale out and don't make more... So I will probably find AWESOME cards just for them to disappear and never have them again...which would be sad.
  11. People should always educate themselves before spending money Mat. If people knew the difference between manufacturing cost and rrp I'm sure they would think twice about buying whatever product they might be looking at.

    Just because we are somewhat responsible for ourselves we should not be told something will never be sold again when it will.
  12. #12 ChrisWiens, Dec 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2011
    Good advice. I totally agree.

    I also like the following quote. "Book" can be replaced with nearly any magic product.
    Limited editions are marketing strategies.
    I wonder how long does it take before the first online-book-dealer`s e-book will be advertised as "limited edition" or "out of print soon" ;)
  13. like I said, if a product truely was all that they say it is...they would not make it a "limited stock" item.......after all they would be doing them selves out of money. They would make hundreds of millions of them because if they REALLY were as good as they say then therre would be demand for them forever and a day. I hve to admit, that YES, my titanium Talley Ho's and my Guardians (They're the only 'custom' type decks I've had, I've only been into magic for a couple of months) have lasted longer than my regular cards.....but not to the extent that I would be willing to pay a fortune for them. The only reason I got them is cos it was an extra couple of quid onto my order of regular cards and I figured I'd buy them as a deck to use in performances cos they look a little nicer. I certainly wouldn't pay $75 for them or what ever.
  14. #14 William Draven, Dec 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 21, 2011
    Companies like Ellusionist and Theory11 have succeeded in doing to regular card decks what Pokemon did to baseball cards.

    What D&D have done is created a niche market which by controlling the general access to a specific item imparts a sense of prestige. Hence by labeling them as Limited Edition, and only releasing a small percentage of the total production run, they're guaranteed to keep making more money on any additional releases they may promote.

    To that extent I don't believe that companies like D&D just happen to "find" a stock of X rare item in the back of the warehouse. I believe they intentionally hold back, to market these items to generate quick sales at certain times of the year like Christmas. On that note, I do agree with the general feeling of being lied to. I would respect a company much more if they were strait about something like that. Oh well.
  15. #15 Lyle Borders, Dec 20, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 20, 2011
    Hey everyone,

    Just a quick comment regarding the original post. We are blurring the lines between all magic companies here. theory11 is and always has been very transparent and honest in everything we do. While I cannot speak as a representative of any other company, we have not done the kind of things spoken of in the original post.

    Have we had limited decks? Of course. Look at the White Centurions. We announced when we first released any of the White Centurions that there were only 1,100 ever printed. That has not and will not change. During our limited release windows for the cards, we did not mark up their prices to take advantage of you. We offered them in single deck increments at our standard deck price. Yes, they were a promotional item, but we were very clear about how things worked. Following our Black Friday event, they are completely gone, and never will be reprinted. This will not change, either.

    We have had other decks that have come and gone. Every time we have been extremely transparent. When we had our Gold Monarch printing, as you all well know, as soon as we figured out the issue we let everyone know what happened. We told everyone the situation, our decision, and our reason for the decision. We even provided pictures of the destroyed decks at the factory. Keep in mind that theory11 paid for the complete run of Gold Monarchs but elected to voluntarily destroy all but 144 of them. When we say quality over quantity, we mean it. And we pay for it.

    While as human beings we are imperfect, we do try our hardest to be open, honest, and fair to every single person. As we continue this conversation, make sure we keep everything based in facts. We feel for you all when you feel ripped off, but we want to make sure that theory11 is only associated with its own actions, not the actions of other companies.

    Thanks everyone.

  16. I agree with the original post. the limited trend thing - is getting a little tiresome, whats worse is how some are just milking that these days as mentioned before. Im not going to repeat that, we all know different companies that are doing that. you may not or may respect that but, business is business, even though im with you all on that one.

    I also have to agree with lyle. t11 although having limited editions, which is fine, they have not done the things other places have done. (not that its wrong or right.. just our own opinions.) T11 is not the only one that has kept to their own standards - there are other companies as well.

    hopefully this makes sense.
  17. Magic is dead.

  18. Just as a quick note, from someone who makes 50% of their living marketing magic, (the other 50% is made up of performing said material) what you're paying for when you buy magic isn't the gimmick or the DVD. You're buying the secret and/or the routine.

    To give an example, ebooks cost nothing to produce, minus the time/opp cost. Yet people will still throw a lot of money at them. Paul V was selling his HCE ebook for $1,000. People paid it because it was a VERY well thought out routine.

    Manufacturing cost is irrelevant when buying magic.

  19. Except when its a deck of cards.

  20. Not intending to start any fights, but when people get upset about mark ups then how can they expect companies to make a profit? Take an appearing cane for example, costs about 45p to produce but costs around £20 to buy yet it is a prop hundreds of magicians buy. Take any other living item, an iphone, costs around £5 to produce materials but they can be sold for upwards of £200. The consumer world is the same for both magic and general consumption items. If people are upset about the mark up then don't buy it. Simple as. As for decks, saying they are limited is a truth, they aren't lying about the number being printed nor are they lying about being resold. Take the white centurion situation, they were sold at one point but were never sold again. But given away free with orders over a certain amount. This isn't selling them again but giving them away as perks and incentives.
    With this whole misleading advertising, I agree there is much of that. I won't name names but I once bought an effect that claimed no use of invisible thread but infact it did. Misleading advertising is everywhere, not just within magic. No offence formula but a while back you posted up about going onto Penn and Teller: Fool Us as you had something that would change the world of magic for everyone (http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?34910-Fool-Us-still-taking-auditions). How many times have we heard this and it hasn't been true? Pretty much 99% of the time.
    However with decks of cards, it doesn't matter what you sell them at or how you advertise them they will still be sold. Welcome to a situation that doesn't only happen in magic but with everything! Food, clothes, housing, shopping, services and magic!

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