My hands are on fire!

Apr 26, 2016
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So, we all know about audience management and misdirection, but what do you do for that person who just won't stop burning your hands? You know the type, that one guy who just gets obsessed with the how of it, usually either a fellow magician, or just an avid spectator. My question is how do you entertain folks like this?
Getting them into the spirit is easy enough, but how do you pull them away from their curiosity, and if you can't, what do you do that helps when they're basically trying to laser beam your hands?
A part of me loves people like this, because they challenge me as a performer, but I also want to entertain them, and sometimes they leave me at a loss. Thoughts?
 

WitchDocIsIn

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Sep 13, 2008
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Engage the audience, don't just do puzzles at them.

If someone is staring at your hands, determined to find the method, that means they are interpreting your performance as a challenge to solve a puzzle. They are not engaged in the performance, they are just trying to find the method. This is a failure on the performer's part, in my mind.

Make your magic engaging, and they don't try to figure out the method.

When it comes to magicians that's a bit of a different story. They often take it as a pride thing that they can figure out methods. Personally, I just rarely perform for other magicians. They don't pay my bills so I'm not that worried about their opinion. But if I do want to fool magicians there's two things I like to do - 1) Create a presentation that gets them wrapped up in the performance so they worry more about experiencing the performance rather than try to figure out the method, and 2) Use their knowledge against them. By that I mean I will sometimes slip fake "moves" in so they think they know what I did, when in reality I'm just basically faking a method.
 
Apr 26, 2016
65
26
Engage the audience, don't just do puzzles at them.

If someone is staring at your hands, determined to find the method, that means they are interpreting your performance as a challenge to solve a puzzle. They are not engaged in the performance, they are just trying to find the method. This is a failure on the performer's part, in my mind.

Make your magic engaging, and they don't try to figure out the method.

When it comes to magicians that's a bit of a different story. They often take it as a pride thing that they can figure out methods. Personally, I just rarely perform for other magicians. They don't pay my bills so I'm not that worried about their opinion. But if I do want to fool magicians there's two things I like to do - 1) Create a presentation that gets them wrapped up in the performance so they worry more about experiencing the performance rather than try to figure out the method, and 2) Use their knowledge against them. By that I mean I will sometimes slip fake "moves" in so they think they know what I did, when in reality I'm just basically faking a method.
I get what you're saying, but I'm not talking about people who don't find the story interesting. I'm talking about people solely interested in the method. These are people like engineers, magicians, puzzle solvers. They essentially remain dead to you, burning your hand the whole time, casually waving off the story. I don't get them often, but I do get them.
Taking it a step further, what does one do for the disassembler, the one who attempts to break apart the trick in order to solve It? These people are extremely detached from the idea of magic as a performance, and exclusively look at magic as a puzzle. It's not a bad approach to me, I'm just looking for ways to also entertain these people. How do I allow them that exploration, but still enable that sense of wonder?
 

WitchDocIsIn

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Sep 13, 2008
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Well, by definition the people who are dead set on figuring out your method are not interested in your presentation. If they were interested in your presentation, they wouldn't be worrying about the method.

I've tried to write this post several times so far, but really what it comes down to is: Engage the audience.

I've performed for all kinds of people. For years, I have never encountered one of "those people" who insist all magic is a puzzle that must be solved. For how often other magicians complain about this problem, I would expect to run into them all the time. But I don't. Ever. And I am not so egotistical that I think it's because my material is better than everyone else's.

Is it that these people are out there in droves - or is it that most magicians just aren't that interesting to watch?

Look at your presentations. Look at your script. Is this really something that random strangers would be interested in?
 

RealityOne

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Nov 1, 2009
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Is it that these people are out there in droves - or is it that most magicians just aren't that interesting to watch?

Look at your presentations. Look at your script. Is this really something that random strangers would be interested in?

It is that most magicians aren't that interesting to watch. When there is nothing more to the presentation than what you are doing, the most logical thought for the spectators is how you are doing it. When people add some presentation to an effect, most of the time it isn't logical - like watching a Road Runner cartoon with there being a voiceover of someone reading Shakespeare.

@ChristopherT - as one of our friends famously said, "Your Patter Sucks!" Writing good scripts for magic is difficult. It is too easy to make something trite or cliché. My test is whether the magic and the presentation are interesting on their own.

Also, the script has to fit your character. I know I couldn't pull off Christopher's presentations and I suspect that he couldn't pull off my presentations.

Finally, we have to respect our magic. This is an idea from Darren Brown's Pure Effect. Sometimes we treat magic like it doesn't matter -- "do you want to see a trick?" Darren talks about sitting down with the late Eugene Burger and Eugene saying in his deep voice "Now... I would like you to pick a card." The way he did that, Eugene gave Darren the sense that he was about to witness something amazingly wonderful. If you've ever seen Dani DaOrtiz perform you cannot avoid his sense of excitement. Jeff McBride gives off this aura of being mystical. Wayne Houchin has this "school kid who is up to something" smirk that makes you feel like you are an unwilling accomplice in something amazingly fun and amazingly devious. If your character makes the audience expect something amazing, mystical, fun, devious or exciting -- the audience won't care how it is done.
 
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Apr 26, 2016
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You guys made this way more complicated than necessary. I was looking to see if anyone had some real puzzlers, or something to do for the thinking type, and it turned into a lesson in showmanship. I think you've intentionally ignored the second section of my question. Should it not be the case that a good performer should be prepared for every instance? I'm not saying this is everyone, nor am I saying I dislike people acting like this. To be honest, I find them interesting and challenging, and often I will give them a rabbit hole and teach them a false method, then execute a routine under this false pretense. I've found this is a good way to engage these people, and get them to care about the story. I was looking to see how other people handled this situation. You can't pretend it doesn't happen, because it does, to many magicians. Ignoring a problem does not make it go away.
 
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So you are looking for ways to challenge tough audience members, without fixing your presentation so that you can actually avoid the problem altogether? I think it is incredibly important to do what these guys said., not gonna copy the same thing.


But to answer the question: Self-workers. And non-slight tricks too.
 
Apr 26, 2016
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So you are looking for ways to challenge tough audience members, without fixing your presentation so that you can actually avoid the problem altogether? I think it is incredibly important to do what these guys said., not gonna copy the same thing.


But to answer the question: Self-workers. And non-slight tricks too.
I agree. I think it's very important to improve the quality of ones performance. I'm only trying to coonvey the idea that regardless of the improvement in quality, it's still possible to hit a tough nut like what I've been saying. Even if the likelihood is just 0.000001%, it's still a good idea to know how to soften people like this in show, because if you don't know how, you can quickly lose control of your show, and then you're definitely up the creek without a paddle as the saying goes.
I guess the ultimate thing I'm saying is: I agree, improve quality of the show, but also maintain a backup of little puzzlers to get these people more involved in the show, keep everyone entertained, and get them interested in your story, so they cause as little damage as possible, and everyone leaves with a good experience.
 
Feb 1, 2017
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I'd argue that it isn't the performer every time. If you've performed something a bunch of times and it's usually a hit, but maybe every few dozen performances you run into "that guy", then wouldn't it be more logical to say the fault is with the spectator and not the performer?

To be honest, I haven't run into "this" kind of spectator ever since I stopped performing card magic. Something to think about...
 
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Apr 26, 2016
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I'd argue that it isn't the performer every time. If you've performed something a bunch of times and it's usually a hit, but maybe every few dozen performances you run into "that guy", then wouldn't it be more logical to say the fault is with the spectator and not the performer?

To be honest, I haven't run into "this" kind of spectator ever since I stopped performing card magic. Something to think about...
You know, I've never thought about that. What sort of magic do you do these days?
 
Feb 1, 2017
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You know, I've never thought about that. What sort of magic do you do these days?

For my casual performances, like for friends and acquaintances, I'll still use cards, but mostly coin magic nowadays. Sometimes even rings. There is something about playing cards that is just no longer magical. Perhaps because it's not organic enough? Overused? It could be for a variety of reasons, but check this out:

"Show me a magic trick!"

Which is a better response?
A. Sure! *Pulls out a pack of cards*
B. Sure. Do you happen to have a ring or a coin I can borrow?

I think playing cards can still be magical; however, playing cards evokes a certain feeling to the spectator by simply just using it. When a spectator sees a "magician" use a deck of cards, they're not expecting to see magic. They're expecting to see a trick. Sleight of hand. They're expecting to be fooled. So before you even perform you're already at a disadvantage. If you're a good enough performer, most people will just enjoy the ride, but there will definitely be that one guy who only gives af about the method. Because a deck of cards in a magicians hands might as well be a puzzle.
 
Jan 26, 2017
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For my casual performances, like for friends and acquaintances, I'll still use cards, but mostly coin magic nowadays. Sometimes even rings. There is something about playing cards that is just no longer magical. Perhaps because it's not organic enough? Overused? It could be for a variety of reasons, but check this out:

"Show me a magic trick!"

Which is a better response?
A. Sure! *Pulls out a pack of cards*
B. Sure. Do you happen to have a ring or a coin I can borrow?

I think playing cards can still be magical; however, playing cards evokes a certain feeling to the spectator by simply just using it. When a spectator sees a "magician" use a deck of cards, they're not expecting to see magic. They're expecting to see a trick. Sleight of hand. They're expecting to be fooled. So before you even perform you're already at a disadvantage. If you're a good enough performer, most people will just enjoy the ride, but there will definitely be that one guy who only gives af about the method. Because a deck of cards in a magicians hands might as well be a puzzle.
I personally like doing (as @ChristopherT once put it) "Magic with cards, as opposed to card tricks". I think the best way to do tricks with cards and still make them super magical is to not make it feel like a card trick. Make it feel like you are simply doing something, and the cards are the medium. Thing's like Paul Harris's Las Vegas Leap, Cards across, a ton of in the hands effects, etc. Anything that isn't a typical card trick. Use a patter that makes it interesting. I do a ton of Card effects, all of which I try and base around this principal. Also, I like card tricks that don't feel like card tricks. For example, my go to "impromptu" effect is The Invisible Card from Daniel Madison's Advocate. It doesn't feel like a card trick. Other major card tricks that I think accomplish this (when done correctly): Angle Z, (Incoming, a lot of TnRs) Regeneration, Counterfeit, TnR Transpo, Guy Hollingworth's Reformation, a ton of stuff by Greg Wilson, Haunted deck (when done right), almost any card effect by Paul Harris, and a ton more!

I think the most organic one's are the one's you can create and make them feel organic.

At the same time, I find it important to use non-card magic, with much more organic materials. Ring Magic is amazing. As is coin & bill. And Mentalism using organic things is also amazing.
 
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If all an individual seems to care about is burning your hands, then put the cards in theirs. Out Of This World and Poker Players Picnic are two examples of where the deck is relinquished by the magician and given to the spectator, who then does all the handling of the cards with very magical, in fact seemingly impossible, results.
 
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PS If you are worried that you will not be able to set up the deck without detection or suspicion because Mr. Hand-burner will be closely scrutinizing you, there is a simple solution. Just have a matching deck in your pocket, which you had previously set up. Many times I have had an extra deck in my pocket already set up for Out of This World. Following a trick(s), I place the deck I was using into the card box, and then into my pocket, and then use one of two ploys: (1) Say something along the lines of, "You know what - let's try one more," and pull out the set-up deck, and proceed; or (2) After pocketing the deck in use, do a coin trick or some other non-card effect, then bring the cards out again (this time, the matching set-up deck) and say, "Let's try one more experiment with the cards." Easiest deck switch in the world...
 

RealityOne

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@eternalredking - To paraphrase your question: I have people who view my performance as a puzzle and burn my hands to figure it out - do you guys have a better puzzle for me to perform?

My answer was to stop performing puzzles and instead imbue your magic with significance and develop a character that the audience wants to succeed. If paying attention to you and your presentation are more interesting than figuring out how it is done - what will people do?

Absent that, you need to learn the principles of structure and design of effects and presentations. Read Darwin Ortiz's Designing Miracles, Juan Tamariz's The Magic Way, Arturo de Ascanio's Structural Conception of Magic and Larry Haas's Transformations: Turning Tricks into Magic and Tommy Wonder's essays in The Books of Wonder. And that is just the start of what you need to learn.

You then have to apply the concepts of timing, one ahead, naturalness, direction, logical plot development, subconsciously eliminating methods, character development, employing literary elements and devices, etc. to create what Larry Haas so accurately calls "presentation pieces."

@ChrisJGJ - I think that playing cards are trivial because they are seen as being used in card tricks usually without any presentation which leads to the spectators thinking the game is to guess the method. Magicians make card tricks trivial.

All I’m saying is you have to justify a deck of cards, but for a coun or ring you don’t. Why is that? Because a deck of cards isn’t really magical.

I'll take it one further.... props aren't magical -- magicians are.
 
Jul 26, 2016
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Definitely some very good advice and thoughts have been posted, and they are applicable almost all of the time. However, I think that it is unavoidable that from time to time, there is going to be that person who cares about nothing but trying to show up the performer and prove how clever and smart they are - no matter how well the presentation is structured. In some cases, this may have nothing to do with a deficiency on the part of the performer, but a character trait of the onlooker.
 
Feb 1, 2017
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I'll take it one further.... props aren't magical -- magicians are.

Yeah I'm on board with that.

Definitely some very good advice and thoughts have been posted, and they are applicable almost all of the time. However, I think that it is unavoidable that from time to time, there is going to be that person who cares about nothing but trying to show up the performer and prove how clever and smart they are - no matter how well the presentation is structured. In some cases, this may have nothing to do with a deficiency on the part of the performer, but a character trait of the onlooker.

@ChristopherT and @RealityOne are adamant that this is not the case. So I think it might be this: The character some magicians want to portray are just not inherently magical. If you only use a deck of cards, it's going to be harder for you than if you have the skill set of ChristopherT and label yourself a Witch Doctor. I remember a thread where @Maaz Hasan was asking how the title Sleight of Hand Artist sounded. Well to me that sounds like I'm about to see some guy do sleight of hand, not magic. And that's fine, but he can never expect to avoid "that" kind of spectator indefinitely because of the character Maaz wishes to portray.
 

WitchDocIsIn

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Sep 13, 2008
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However, I think that it is unavoidable that from time to time, there is going to be that person who cares about nothing but trying to show up the performer and prove how clever and smart they are - no matter how well the presentation is structured.

I'm not going to say these people don't exist - but I can say that I never seem to encounter them.

Thinking about it now, I realize that it's probably because my show is already largely about shining the spotlight on the audience and showing off how clever or cool they already are. When you make people feel good about themselves, they don't interrupt you.
 
All I’m saying is you have to justify a deck of cards, but for a coun or ring you don’t. Why is that? Because a deck of cards isn’t really magical.
I could not agree more with this. I try to explain it this way, did you ever see Harry Potter, Merlin, or whatever magic character in pop culture use a deck of cards to win a battle or impress someone? The answer is no and so the cards need to be justified in a magical way.
*Pro-tip: 3D Advertising by Henry Evans
 
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