No books on Theory11
- Thread starter Austin24
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Well then my suspicions have been confirmed. Now the only hard part is getting more people to read....this is gonna be a pain.
Why do you have to get them to read?
Why waste your energy on this? There is no 'right' way to learn magic. Well, there is, but it's any way that produces magic afterward. Trying to go on some kind of crusade to make sure people are reading is just going to be like shouting at the ocean to stop having waves.
I just want people to see that there is a wealth of knowledge that will most likely never be found on some dvd or download. I hear people talking about how magicians have a bad name and how we need to change that...well a background in books separates the pros from a lot of the move monkeys on YouTube who learn some trick from a download or another YouTube video and decide to perform it. I'm not trying to stop the tide but make waves. Dvds are great and downloads can be a big help to some, but I just want people to stop overlooking the written word. If we don't know where we came from how do we know where we are going?
You can't make people care.
All you can do is suggest and lead by example. When someone asks for resources, give them books.
It's not wrong to learn from videos. It's not wrong not to want to be a master. This is an individual art, let people get to it their own way.
Look at it this way. There will be those who only learn from videos who will see you do something from Close up Card Magic, The Complete Walton, Tarbell or Slight of Hand and you will complete fool them. You will blow their mind with the effect because it's nout out there on video or on youtube.
The sad truth is that you can't make people care. This is why I wrote about tangential learning. For the most part, I can't teach people, but I can facilitate learning for those who want to learn.
To put it plainly, most people don't have the patience to be good at anything. More still do, but they don't know what they want to be good at. You can put the material out there, but you can't make them consume it. You can't make them ditch the ego and embrace the learning process. They're the only ones who can affect that change in themselves.
And yes, magic does have a bad image. But, and I know this is going to ruffle some feathers, the Old Guard and our generation who do take this seriously have a share of the blame too. We're still doing routines that were hackneyed in the 90's. We're still *****ing about Criss Angel. We're still trying to bring back the last Golden Age of magic rather than working toward a new one. And, as is typical for any field, the real innovators are scoffed at because they insist on doing things differently. I'm not naming any names, but I've talked to old pros who think that cold calling is still an effective way to book gigs, despite the fact that they haven't had to make a cold call since Clinton was in office. They still think Doug Henning routines are topical. Not taking anything away from Doug, mind you, but he was ideally suited to his time and times have changed. A lot of oldbies are so secure in their positions they don't recognize that. I spent the first three years as a professional slavishly following their advice and it got me nowhere. Craig Browning, Rick Maue, John Stetson, Docc Hilford and Paul Gertner are the only ones I've talked to who have kept up with the market and were able to understand me when I explained the particular idiosyncrasies of the business and economic climate in my hometown. The rest told me to do what they did to book a corporate gig back in 1987.
This turned into a bigger rant than I expected. Point is, you're going to have only a handful of true masters and it's for a variety of reasons. Trying to fix all of them is a fool's game. A true innovator suffers the criticisms of his peers who call him an iconoclast with dignity and aplomb and speaks only through his work and success. That's what changes industries.
You are right, and I do give books as references every chance I get. I know I can't change them all, heck maybe not even one but I'm going to try. I love magic and I just want people to see that there is so much out there that so few know about. As for the Criss Angel thing....I had just performed a short routine, my first time in front of strangers. It was epic they loved it. I was shaking so bad I thought I was going to puke, when I was done one of them looked at me and said "I'm gonna start watching more criss angel!" I told him what I thought of angel and suggested a few other magicians instead. Hopefully he checked them out.
I don`t care much whether others learn from DVDs or books. Each to his own. This will keep the good stuff secret.
What makes me sad is that crediting is totally out of control in todays media. When kids with absolutely zero knowledge about the history of magic credit a move or effect they have seen to this magician, let`s call him David Blaine or Criss Angel, although it`s just a move invented centuries ago by another magician, this is a shame. They learn from youtube videos, and misinformation is spreaded throughout the web. Error propagation at its finest.
Of course it`s not the fault of these magicians, but it`s already too late to correct it. Reading books instead would have minimized this, as crediting in todays books is above average.
What makes me sad is that crediting is totally out of control in todays media. When kids with absolutely zero knowledge about the history of magic credit a move or effect they have seen to this magician, let`s call him David Blaine or Criss Angel, although it`s just a move invented centuries ago by another magician, this is a shame. They learn from youtube videos, and misinformation is spreaded throughout the web. Error propagation at its finest.
Of course it`s not the fault of these magicians, but it`s already too late to correct it. Reading books instead would have minimized this, as crediting in todays books is above average.
There can be some real treasures to be found in books, I can't argue with anyone on that front. But the main reason why I usually lean towards DVDs, is because I'm not a very good visualizer. I'm not a "lazy" magician, but I can have serious problems with visualizing exactly what text is describing. DVDs are just an better learning tool for me, I wish more books would be done as DVDs.
I can definitely see the value in books. There are some positives in books such as the pure amount of content, ease of portability and the occasional hidden gems that are extremely old but useful. Books teach only the technique and not the presentation so that means less Garcia clones. Moreover, learning from a book gives you that sense of accomplishment of extracting a useful skill from within the pages of a paper, something magical about it. Definitely makes you appreciate it more.
However, perhaps we should consider a few things with DVDs as well. Coming from the generation of learning through DVDs and other visual mediums, I always found it nice that I'm able to see the effect in action prior to investing precious time into it. In addition to seeing how it works, a good visual explanation has taught me precise moments of subtlety and misdirection. That sort of precision in timing is difficult to extract from a book, and often times not possible. Moreover, I'm able to see the structure of a routine, the effect within context, and the reactions possible with good presentation.
Speaking of presentation, argument against DVDs is that the student copies the teacher. I don't necessarily think that's such a bad thing. Speaking to magicians and entertainers far more talented and experienced than I am have said that emulation is a necessary part of one's growth. I can relate through my cardistry career. Emulation has helped me understand why it's important to be funny, relaxed, and engaging. It took time to find those things that are unique to me and not the person I was emulating. But the important thing is, is that a visual medium has made me cognizant of those elements much earlier which some may argue are even more important than the effects themselves. In other words, we do the right things sooner by emulating a good performance, although it'll take time to understand why they are important in the first place.
As far as amount of content in books - can go both ways. Good to have a choice between a hundred different effects, but perhaps the focus on a few would serve us better as entertainers. Of course, it's good to have a choice but speaking as someone who produces this sort of content, I can say we do our best to filter and bring our audience the best that we can find while keeping all these elements in mind. Not everybody has access to super accomplished magic mentors, but to me DVDs are the next best thing. While they don't provide feedback, the good ones give you a solid example of how to apply yourself, and make it unique to you. Add the forums and access to people like Chris Kenner and Jason England, and you have yourself some solid groundwork to build upon.
However, perhaps we should consider a few things with DVDs as well. Coming from the generation of learning through DVDs and other visual mediums, I always found it nice that I'm able to see the effect in action prior to investing precious time into it. In addition to seeing how it works, a good visual explanation has taught me precise moments of subtlety and misdirection. That sort of precision in timing is difficult to extract from a book, and often times not possible. Moreover, I'm able to see the structure of a routine, the effect within context, and the reactions possible with good presentation.
Speaking of presentation, argument against DVDs is that the student copies the teacher. I don't necessarily think that's such a bad thing. Speaking to magicians and entertainers far more talented and experienced than I am have said that emulation is a necessary part of one's growth. I can relate through my cardistry career. Emulation has helped me understand why it's important to be funny, relaxed, and engaging. It took time to find those things that are unique to me and not the person I was emulating. But the important thing is, is that a visual medium has made me cognizant of those elements much earlier which some may argue are even more important than the effects themselves. In other words, we do the right things sooner by emulating a good performance, although it'll take time to understand why they are important in the first place.
As far as amount of content in books - can go both ways. Good to have a choice between a hundred different effects, but perhaps the focus on a few would serve us better as entertainers. Of course, it's good to have a choice but speaking as someone who produces this sort of content, I can say we do our best to filter and bring our audience the best that we can find while keeping all these elements in mind. Not everybody has access to super accomplished magic mentors, but to me DVDs are the next best thing. While they don't provide feedback, the good ones give you a solid example of how to apply yourself, and make it unique to you. Add the forums and access to people like Chris Kenner and Jason England, and you have yourself some solid groundwork to build upon.
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I get that T11 is working towards the younger magicians who have grown up on micro transactions in video games and app stores. I understand you are making money with the $10 impulse buy, but I have books from the 1930's that I can still read but i have CD's from the 1990's that have started to degrade. I can still read those old books but I have a hard time finding a VCR to watch tapes from the 90's. And now we are moving towards more cloud base storage and less on physical media it will be hard to find something to watch those DVDs on.
Now to copying someone you see on the DVDs. There is a downside to copying someone's style and effects word for word. When I was 18 I had spent years becoming me own act. Look patter effects. I do the show one time in public and the next month another guy from the ring shows up dressed like me down to the facial hair which he had to paint on with make up. He did my act word for word effect for effect. But let me quote the great Ricky Jay...
"A guy comes up and starts telling me he's a fan," Ricky recalls. "I say thank you, that's nice to hear. He says he used to see me perform in Boulder, Colorado. That's nice, too, I say. Then he starts talking about this wonderful piece I did with a mechanical monkey-really one of the most bizarre routines I ever worked out-and I thank him, and he says, `Yeah, I get a tremendous response when I do that. Audiences just love it.' And I say, `Let me ask you something. Suppose I invite you over to my house for dinner. We have a pleasant meal, we talk about magic, it's an enjoyable evening. Then, as you're about to leave, you walk into my living room and you pick up my television and walk out with it. You steal my television set. Would you do that?' He says, `Of course not.' And I say, `But you already did.' He says, `What are you talking about?' I say, `You stole my television!' He says, `How can you say that? I've never even been to your house.' This guy doesn't even know what a metaphor is. People ask me why I don't do lectures at magic conventions, and I say, `Because I'm still learning.' Meanwhile, you've got people who have been doing magic for ten months and they are actually out there pontificating. It's absurd."
With things like Skype and the find a magician feature on the SAM and IBM websites there is no reason why you can not find a mentor, local or not, who can show you what you need after trying things out from a book. You mention Chris Kenner, who in an Q and A even says go and read the books. Jason England has a list of books he thinks that all magicians should have. I have yet to see a list of must own DVDs, but there are list of books like Tarbell and Royal Road that is on everyone's list.
Now to copying someone you see on the DVDs. There is a downside to copying someone's style and effects word for word. When I was 18 I had spent years becoming me own act. Look patter effects. I do the show one time in public and the next month another guy from the ring shows up dressed like me down to the facial hair which he had to paint on with make up. He did my act word for word effect for effect. But let me quote the great Ricky Jay...
"A guy comes up and starts telling me he's a fan," Ricky recalls. "I say thank you, that's nice to hear. He says he used to see me perform in Boulder, Colorado. That's nice, too, I say. Then he starts talking about this wonderful piece I did with a mechanical monkey-really one of the most bizarre routines I ever worked out-and I thank him, and he says, `Yeah, I get a tremendous response when I do that. Audiences just love it.' And I say, `Let me ask you something. Suppose I invite you over to my house for dinner. We have a pleasant meal, we talk about magic, it's an enjoyable evening. Then, as you're about to leave, you walk into my living room and you pick up my television and walk out with it. You steal my television set. Would you do that?' He says, `Of course not.' And I say, `But you already did.' He says, `What are you talking about?' I say, `You stole my television!' He says, `How can you say that? I've never even been to your house.' This guy doesn't even know what a metaphor is. People ask me why I don't do lectures at magic conventions, and I say, `Because I'm still learning.' Meanwhile, you've got people who have been doing magic for ten months and they are actually out there pontificating. It's absurd."
With things like Skype and the find a magician feature on the SAM and IBM websites there is no reason why you can not find a mentor, local or not, who can show you what you need after trying things out from a book. You mention Chris Kenner, who in an Q and A even says go and read the books. Jason England has a list of books he thinks that all magicians should have. I have yet to see a list of must own DVDs, but there are list of books like Tarbell and Royal Road that is on everyone's list.
I wouldn't recommend a guy try to learn guitar after listening to only five songs, all from the same band in his entire life.
That is why R. Paul Wilson said at the start of the Royal Road video to read the book then come to the video.
No, they don't.
Don't fall into the hole of thinking that your opinion (And this is an opinion) is the absolute truth and only way.
People will learn how they will learn and your preferences make no difference to anyone else. If someone wants to learn exclusively from videos, that's just fine.