Reverse Engineering... Another Crazy Thought

This is another one of my thoughts that I have been pondering over. Let me explain the background story.

A month or two ago, over on the Ellusionist forums, there was a thread was asking if it was okay to create a different variation on an already existing trick. Somehow this lead to me confessing that I had reverse engineered the Shapeshifter when it first came out. Well, someone who seems to have a lot of issues with me, jumped all over me for this, screaming about magic ethics, and why that's wrong, and blah!. Well, lt me tell you the story.

Okay, it was about two years ago when I first saw The Shapeshifter video on E. I was amazed, but I didn't have any cash for it, as I didn't have a job at that time. So, I decided to create my own variation on that effect. So I tried and tried and eventuallyI came up with a way of doing it that looked very good. One day, my friend calls me up and says: "Dude, wanna come over? My grandma just bought me a ton of magic DVD's for my birthday. Wanna come watch oe or two wit me?" So I went to his house and we put all the DVD's in a bag and pulled one out. It was the shapeshifter. Because I already had my variation, I wasn't too interested. But then the explanation portion came up and I realized that the guy in the video was performing it the exact same way I did. I had accidentally figured the method out.

So that whole ordeal got me thinking about the act of Reverse Engineering any effect. People make a big deal out of it, but is it really that big of a deal???

"Well, that means that the artist doesn't get money for that effect!!!"- is what many people would present as their argument. And yes they are correct. But perhaps the reason that they aren't geting paid is their fault, not mine...

"What???"

Perhaps that means that the magician who invented the trick didn't make it "good enough". Maybe, that magician created an effect the looks cool, but is easy to reverse engineer with todays technology. Perhaps, if you are able to rewind and watch that part of a video again, you might catch a slight glimpse of the card underneath the other one. Or maybe see the half pass.

Basically there are three types of effects...

Those that CAN be reverse engineered.
Those That CAN NOT be reverse engineered.
And the ones that can be recreated using different sleights, thus making it a "variation".

My point basically comes down to this. Today, technology is at it's peak and it's getting better. People, that means magicians and determined laymen, will have a better shot at deciphering our tricks. And if magicians still want cash flow, then we need to start smartening up and realizing that the only way for us to advance is to advance.

That means, that in order for us to be able to keep amazing people for future generations, we need to start thinking outside of the box. Start coming up with original concepts. Concepts that are utterly impossible to reverse engineer. I would estimate that about 95% of todays magic tricks ave been performed in the past, just using different sleights. That would mean that 95% of the effects we perform are unorignal and simply "variations". We need to start being original.

Thoughts on any of this???
Dylan P.
 
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Jan 13, 2008
1,137
0
My thoughts...my thoughts. My thoughts are that if that's the way magicians are going, then I would suggest that the people releasing their effects only offer us text-explanations of what their effects are. It's a step backwards, but it's a logical step for them to take if the community starts thinking it's okay to rip off their effects.

It's their fault for making it possible for a magician to reverse engineer their effects? Oh please. They design their effects with the AUDIENCE in mind, not with magicians trying to reverse engineer their effects by watching them over and over again.

Although I don't like the text-only explanations, it's the safest bet for the people releasing their effects. We lose out if that's the case, as text-explanations tend to be far less "accurate" than video, but if it's to protect their sales then I would be on board with that--they absolutely have a right to protect their work from thieves.

I had more to say, but I kinda lost my train of thought. I may add more later, but the above pretty much sums up my thoughts. :)
 
My thoughts...my thoughts. My thoughts are that if that's the way magicians are going, then I would suggest that the people releasing their effects only offer us text-explanations of what their effects are. It's a step backwards, but it's a logical step for them to take if the community starts thinking it's okay to rip off their effects.

It's their fault for making it possible for a magician to reverse engineer their effects? Oh please. They design their effects with the AUDIENCE in mind, not with magicians trying to reverse engineer their effects by watching them over and over again.

Although I don't like the text-only explanations, it's the safest bet for the people releasing their effects. We lose out if that's the case, as text-explanations tend to be far less "accurate" than video, but if it's to protect their sales then I would be on board with that--they absolutely have a right to protect their work from thieves.

I had more to say, but I kinda lost my train of thought. I may add more later, but the above pretty much sums up my thoughts. :)


Just keep in mind. I don't eve agree with half of what I said in the orignal post. And I am not wanting to start any fights. It was just a thought that occured to me and I wanted to see what evryone thinks. I'll post my ideas on the subject later.
 
Dec 1, 2008
354
0
Ottawa, Ontario
I think the effect "Flicker" is sorta related to this, because if a preview video of that were shown any magician would be able to know how it was done. However there is only a text explanation of what the spectator sees.

Also tricks are a lot of times just 'ideas'. Sure you could reverse-engineer that card transposition or what have you, and then perform it, but had you not seen the video you never would have got the idea to.
 
May 3, 2008
858
0
I agree with you. I figure buying a trick when you already know how it's done is just basically paying all that money for the performances. The money that we pay is to credit the magician for creating the trick however if we can figure out the trick ourselves, how is that any different?
 
Aug 5, 2008
86
0
Why would you waste money If you can do it without the video
No dont say " you learn blah blah and he tells you blah blah"
any professional magician will learn how to handle an effect they reverse engineered and maybe even do better than the original.
Ive done it countless times and I know more people do_Only People with lots of understanding are reversed engineering.And I bet people with the understanding wouldn't had bought the effect anyways.

Like every single 1 0n 1, Those are easily executed without needing to be bought by someone like me, that has a lot of understanding.I can perform every single one of them, and perform them well. But not everyone is as talented as me so millions of people (usually kids) will buy them. So far nothing from t11 has been "OMG how did he do that" to me.
 
Why would you waste money If you can do it without the video
No dont say " you learn blah blah and he tells you blah blah"
any professional magician will learn how to handle an effect they reverse engineered and maybe even do better than the original.
Ive done it countless times and I know more people do_Only People with lots of understanding are reversed engineering.And I bet people with the understanding wouldn't had bought the effect anyways.

Like every single 1 0n 1, Those are easily executed without needing to be bought by someone like me, that has a lot of understanding.I can perform every single one of them, and perform them well. But not everyone is as talented as me so millions of people (usually kids) will buy them. So far nothing from t11 has been "OMG how did he do that" to me.

Agreed. Mostly all the effects on here is easy to learn just by watching the performances. To me once you know sleight of hand you should be able to look at other tricks and figure out the method, not unless the Magi did an amazing job creating the trick.

-T.J.
 
Aug 31, 2007
104
0
MI, US
Well places online that sell those DVD tricks sometimes don't show the full trick (like theory11 for example) in their demo videos. This leads to the purchases. If the full effect was shown, of course it would easily be able to be reversed.
 
Jan 13, 2008
1,137
0
Penguin and Namie: I refer you to SamRochon's post:

Also tricks are a lot of times just 'ideas'. Sure you could reverse-engineer that card transposition or what have you, and then perform it, but had you not seen the video you never would have got the idea to.

This, I believe, is the main issue. You're paying for the idea. This is why I would never release my book test...people just don't respect the creative process.

And no, the professionals don't tend to buy each others' effects, and they don't reverse engineer them, either--they teach each other their effects, out of respect for one another. It's a LOT different from reverse engineering an effect, which is extremely disrespectful to the creators of said effects.

Do I really care on an ethical basis? No, not really...it's just, if that type of attitude continues, then we're less likely to see artists wanting to release their grade A material, and instead selling us watered down effects they don't use anyway. In fact, I'd argue that that's already started happening.

Whatever though. I've started making the switch to focusing on creating my own material, and I'm mainly into mentalism anyway, where the best stuff tends to be the older stuff, so I'm not really as affected by what happens with the current commercial effects. Hopefully, things turn out well for everyone else, though. :)
 
Well places online that sell those DVD tricks sometimes don't show the full trick (like theory11 for example) in their demo videos. This leads to the purchases. If the full effect was shown, of course it would easily be able to be reversed.

Not entirley accurate. There are some strong effects which you can watch hundreds of time over and over, and not get the technique.

T.J.
 
Penguin and Namie: I refer you to SamRochon's post:



This, I believe, is the main issue. You're paying for the idea. This is why I would never release my book test...people just don't respect the creative process.

And no, the professionals don't tend to buy each others' effects, and they don't reverse engineer them, either--they teach each other their effects, out of respect for one another. It's a LOT different from reverse engineering an effect, which is extremely disrespectful to the creators of said effects.

Do I really care on an ethical basis? No, not really...it's just, if that type of attitude continues, then we're less likely to see artists wanting to release their grade A material, and instead selling us watered down effects they don't use anyway. In fact, I'd argue that that's already started happening.

Whatever though. I've started making the switch to focusing on creating my own material, and I'm mainly into mentalism anyway, where the best stuff tends to be the older stuff, so I'm not really as affected by what happens with the current commercial effects. Hopefully, things turn out well for everyone else, though. :)

Agreed. I think the best thing we can all do is to create our own effects.

T.J.
 
Jan 10, 2009
94
0
39
new jersey
Completely wonderfull topic. I applaud the thinking inside and out box. I agree to a point. But seriously you have to be in denial or nieve to think magicians and laymen and people in general aren't thinking of how you just did that. Its actual moment that counts. Magic effects are like puzzles.. but artistic puzzles. People will watch to be entertained or joy of figuring it out. Its because its meant to be mysterious so people become interested and want to know. Human curiousty. Its the actual performance, the art that sells the effect. Many things are just applications of the old and become "new." But it is still smart learn about the past. Because through the past will see the future. But time to evolve is here. But how can you build a house without the floor? The past and the now must be respected. But we must always keep them wondering.
 
IF there is a magic video online that shows an idea or the whole trick, if we can watch it, and see it, then i think we are allowed to try to recreate it if we want. The magician who created the trick/video is making the risk that someone might go out and duplicate it, maybe come out with a better varation, thats the magicians risk. if we have the knowledge to do the trick, then i think we should have the choice to recreate the trick or not. If i saw a cool trick on tv, iu would be like. how did he do that? i might like that. so i try to recreate it and there ya go.

someone gave me a comparison. if you were a musician, and you came up with this killer riff, and u put a demo of it online and said, i will teach you this riff for 20 dollars. some one comes along and hears the riff and plays it with out paying (because he has the knowledge to play the riff) then modifies it a bit and makes it sound better. Is it un ethical that he heard something he liked and worked on it and played it?
no. if anything its the musicians fault for putting the whole riff online.
 
Sep 1, 2007
279
1
If someone does some trick and you like what you see, then don't go and do the same trick. Just by watching you don't understand why the magician does what he does and your "improvings" may very likely just make the trick worse. So why would you want to steal other peoples material, rip it apart, and put together something lousy?

Just by changing things around you are not going to make anything better. I've seen many peoples' tricks butchered by these guys who think that they are improving something. Think about if for a second: a magician works on one of his tricks for ten years and decides to release it. Then some other magician who has been in magic for two years decides to buy the trick (or just steal it by watching a video) and thinks he knows better and starts to modify it - without seeing the creators original instructions. Which trick is going to be better?

Reading this thread made me sad. This is the exact reason why I stopped uploading my favourite effects. People will just steal them, leave out one sleight, and call them their own variations.

someone gave me a comparison. if you were a musician, and you came up with this killer riff, and u put a demo of it online and said, i will teach you this riff for 20 dollars. some one comes along and hears the riff and plays it with out paying (because he has the knowledge to play the riff) then modifies it a bit and makes it sound better. Is it un ethical that he heard something he liked and worked on it and played it?
no. if anything its the musicians fault for putting the whole riff online
.

So, a talented musician creates a song and puts it on a record. A poor not-so-talented musician hears the song from a record he bought and figures that the song is easy to play and it still sounds awesome. Is it okay that the not-so-talented musician can play the song, make money with it, or even call it his own song just because he knows how to play the song?

Don't steal other peoples material.

IF there is a magic video online that shows an idea or the whole trick, if we can watch it, and see it, then i think we are allowed to try to recreate it if we want. The magician who created the trick/video is making the risk that someone might go out and duplicate it, maybe come out with a better varation, thats the magicians risk.

No. There is no justification for this. Absolutely nothing makes sense here.
 
D

Deleted member 2755

Guest
A month or two ago, over on the Ellusionist forums, there was a thread was asking if it was okay to create a different variation on an already existing trick. Somehow this lead to me confessing that I had reverse engineered the Shapeshifter when it first came out. Well, someone who seems to have a lot of issues with me, jumped all over me for this, screaming about magic ethics, and why that's wrong, and blah!. Well, lt me tell you the story.

Well I think it's wrong of you to just try and call someone out in a thread you started. Not only is it wrong just because of that, but you're doing it on a forum that he doesn't even post regularly on. You could had just said "Someone" instead. I edited your post.

Okay, it was about two years ago when I first saw The Shapeshifter video on E. I was amazed, but I didn't have any cash for it, as I didn't have a job at that time. So, I decided to create my own variation on that effect. So I tried and tried and eventuallyI came up with a way of doing it that looked very good. One day, my friend calls me up and says: "Dude, wanna come over? My grandma just bought me a ton of magic DVD's for my birthday. Wanna come watch oe or two wit me?" So I went to his house and we put all the DVD's in a bag and pulled one out. It was the shapeshifter. Because I already had my variation, I wasn't too interested. But then the explanation portion came up and I realized that the guy in the video was performing it the exact same way I did. I had accidentally figured the method out.

That's fine. Almost all magicians do this type of thing.


So that whole ordeal got me thinking about the act of Reverse Engineering any effect. People make a big deal out of it, but is it really that big of a deal???

"Well, that means that the artist doesn't get money for that effect!!!"- is what many people would present as their argument. And yes they are correct. But perhaps the reason that they aren't geting paid is their fault, not mine...

"What???"

Perhaps that means that the magician who invented the trick didn't make it "good enough". Maybe, that magician created an effect the looks cool, but is easy to reverse engineer with todays technology. Perhaps, if you are able to rewind and watch that part of a video again, you might catch a slight glimpse of the card underneath the other one. Or maybe see the half pass.

Not good enough? WHAT?! I really cannot comment on it. What you said there was ridiculous. I just really cannot comment. Please re-read what you wrote. I won't comment on this anymore.

Basically there are three types of effects...

Those that CAN be reverse engineered.
Those That CAN NOT be reverse engineered.
And the ones that can be recreated using different sleights, thus making it a "variation".

This is VERY incorrect.

There is an unlimited number of variations to any effect currently out there.

Any effect can be re-created. That does not belong on that list.

My point basically comes down to this. Today, technology is at it's peak and it's getting better. People, that means magicians and determined laymen, will have a better shot at deciphering our tricks. And if magicians still want cash flow, then we need to start smartening up and realizing that the only way for us to advance is to advance.

Magicians are always advancing. To say we aren't is an insult to all of magic. What really makes you say that magicians stopped advancing? Also, how many laymen do you know go on magic websites and stare at these videos long enough to figure them out? Very rare to come by. Very rare. As for magicians, well that's something that cannot be avoided unless there is no preview. If there is no preview, then the magician won't get as many sales. Nothing can be done there.

That means, that in order for us to be able to keep amazing people for future generations, we need to start thinking outside of the box. Start coming up with original concepts. Concepts that are utterly impossible to reverse engineer. I would estimate that about 95% of todays magic tricks ave been performed in the past, just using different sleights. That would mean that 95% of the effects we perform are unorignal and simply "variations". We need to start being original.

At first you were talking about effects that are being marketed and now you are talking about actually performing.

Laymen cannot go back and rewind a performance you did in real life. So unless you only perform for the web cam which I doubt (and hope), then this should not be a problem.

The double lift is a sleight that soooooooooooo many laymen know of. You know what? Magicians do it all the time.

Magicians are always trying to advance and come up with new ideas. Again, to say that they are not is an insult to magic. I really feel your entire post is one massive incorrect bash on magic. I know you didn't mean for it to be that way, but that's what it was. The "knowledge" you posted was incorrect and you accused magicians of not advancing.

Wow.

-Doug
 
Aug 31, 2007
1,960
1
34
Long Island/New York
Reverse Engineering is why you don't see the whole performance for some tricks that get released in a trailer.
Honestly, if you took the time to play back a video many times to figure out how an effect is done and you will probably use it in your routine, I feel that you should buy the effect just to support the artist.

It was his idea and his creative thinking that put the trick together. So if the trick that you found out is deserving enough to go into your routine, you should buy the effect.

Word.

Like every single 1 0n 1, Those are easily executed without needing to be bought by someone like me, that has a lot of understanding.I can perform every single one of them, and perform them well. But not everyone is as talented as me so millions of people (usually kids) will buy them. So far nothing from t11 has been "OMG how did he do that" to me.

Wow.
Are you really as ignorant as you sound?
You can perform every 1on1 well without purchasing any of them?
You guys smell that? Smells like a bunch of bull.
 
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