You're telling me that the center deal is "basic"? And you wonder why Danny called you ignorant?
Hypocrite.
Reverse Engineering... Another Crazy Thought
- Thread starter Dylan P.
- Start date
You're telling me that the center deal is "basic"? And you wonder why Danny called you ignorant?
Hypocrite.
Just finished deleting a number of posts from this thread that were completely uncalled for. That said, here are my thoughts:
I find it highly ironic that the same members who complain about various effects not being shown in their 'entirety' via online demos will sit here and, essentially, promote the act of 'reverse engineering' effects... and you wonder why these particular tricks in question aren't given complete preview videos?
Plain and simple - if you watch a video demo, enjoyed the effect, are curious as to the methodology behind it, and know that you'd perform it (and probably will), why not support the artist by purchasing it? The second you sit down and hit the play button repeatedly, you are engaging in an act that doesn't advance the art in any way, shape, or form. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it slows the progression (that is, the more people who reverse engineer different pieces of magic as opposed to purchasing it legitimately, the less motivation a specific artist has to release said material).
As a comparison, how would you feel if you spent years composing a song - only to have it broken apart piece-by-piece, instrument-by-instrument, note-by-note and thrown into another musician's set who, in turn, decides to perform it for his audiences in venues worldwide? What motivation would you have to compose another song and release it to the public? Zero.
I'm shocked that any of you would actually blame something like this on the artists' lack of development. One thing that saddens me about magic is magicians' constant lack of respect , dignity, and morals. Is this what the art is coming to? A group of individuals 'reverse engineering' effects, only to use them as their own? Scary.
I find it highly ironic that the same members who complain about various effects not being shown in their 'entirety' via online demos will sit here and, essentially, promote the act of 'reverse engineering' effects... and you wonder why these particular tricks in question aren't given complete preview videos?
Plain and simple - if you watch a video demo, enjoyed the effect, are curious as to the methodology behind it, and know that you'd perform it (and probably will), why not support the artist by purchasing it? The second you sit down and hit the play button repeatedly, you are engaging in an act that doesn't advance the art in any way, shape, or form. In fact, I'd go so far as to say it slows the progression (that is, the more people who reverse engineer different pieces of magic as opposed to purchasing it legitimately, the less motivation a specific artist has to release said material).
As a comparison, how would you feel if you spent years composing a song - only to have it broken apart piece-by-piece, instrument-by-instrument, note-by-note and thrown into another musician's set who, in turn, decides to perform it for his audiences in venues worldwide? What motivation would you have to compose another song and release it to the public? Zero.
I'm shocked that any of you would actually blame something like this on the artists' lack of development. One thing that saddens me about magic is magicians' constant lack of respect , dignity, and morals. Is this what the art is coming to? A group of individuals 'reverse engineering' effects, only to use them as their own? Scary.
Did I forgot to say that I have been working with cards way before sites like Ellusionist and T11 existed. Not all of my card knowledge is from videos, I have been working with cards since like forever, thats why I can do everything. Obviously no one can learn how to center deal from performance but I had learned elsewhere. Im talking about effects like Whatever sandwich or The color changes or every other little trick they put out like triumph. Everything in 10n 1 is easy or you allready know how to do if you have been doing this for more than 10 years. There is nothing there that no one with understanding can do. and not only 1on1 that applies to everything magic.
I guess you [beginners*] think any laymen can reverse engineer, Only people with a lot of understanding can. And If you oppose that then you obviously are not there yet.
Exile= application of [Edited] -- If you had owned this then how can you not know how its done.
Riot= Paul harris deck vanish Same gimmick just slightly modified.
Pressure= Old Airtight phase. Anyone thats +8 years old can see how simple it is
ex.Prophet= Hundy , I could make a prophet gimmick with my understanding of how the Hundy gimmick worked.
ect/
If you bought the greek deal then you dont know much about card handling.
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The way you boast leads me to believe you know less about the art than any other member here (especially since your 'assumption' about Pressure is completely false). Your posts have displayed nothing but a complete lack of respect for artists and magicians everywhere. As a magician of over 13 years, posts like your own leave a horrible taste in my mouth. If this is the direction magic is heading, it won't be around for much longer.
I ask you all - where have our morals gone?
I don't know if you know this but you say one thing, and say the exact opposite in another sentence.
I'm pretty sure Pressure can fool an 8 year old, let alone a whole audience full of people. (Check the media section)
Edit:
If T11 is for newbs, then why are you here? It's one thing if you want to help members on here like many people, but saying "I'm the best and this site is for newbs," doesn't help anyone or our art that we share.
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All I said was that I will not be wasting my money buying effects I can easily do with my understanding. Morals have nothing to do with this and please don't say I don't know anything about the art. Growing up with a professional magician I was born into this.
Magic was never about making money (^.^)
It was about sharing ideas and contributing to the community,
Please, magic has been around for longer than T11
Just because People refuse to pay for tricks they already know how to do magic wont be around much longer??? (>.<)
Your missing the point - would you have developed the idea, concept, and / or effect on your own? Probably not. Just because you know the working behind an effect doesn't give you the right to perform it. In fact, that's partly what artists are marketing - permission to perform the effect as you please.
Still not valid justification, in my opinion.
First of all Sinful, I would like to thank you for your wel hought out post. Second, I would like to make it all very clear that what I wrote is NOT my opinion of the subject. It was an idea that I thought of and then developed my own opinion on. I will post my real opinion soon enough. I just wanted to see conversation first. Now, I'll take your reply bit by bit.
1: Thank you for changing the post. at first I was ging to write "someone" but attention needed to be called to him. I have constantly PM'ed RJohnson and "Someone" himself about our issues and they blatantly ignore me for every single PM. But thanks for the edit dude. You're the man.
2: Most magicians do, I realize that.
3: Again, that is a generalized statement, NOT my opinion. It was merely a thought that I thought would provoke some good debate. And it did. My opinion will be posted soon.
4: I was confused by that. I did write that people change the method and create variatons. Could you clarify please?
5: Again, I never said that we don't advance. And again you'll see my opinion on that subject soon enough.
6: True they might not be able to rewind one of my live performances, but they can type in a description of the trick into google or whatever and find a video of the efffect, or a video of a similar effect, that they CAN rewind.
7: Once more, I did not intend for it to bash. It was merely a to of thoughts jumbled into one, debate initiating, thread. It is again not my opinion, but an idea for everyone to think about. I claim no "knowledge" just estimations, generalizations, and thoughts.
So Sinful, you may feel that way but you haven't even heard my opinion yet. All you have seen are some ideas that were meant to provoke critical thinking and debate. I have in fact accomplished both of those things. You have no doubt thought about the post completely in order to accuse me of so many things, and you absolutely have debated with me. So in that area I have succeeded stupendously. So, Doug, you are one of ym good buddies. Do you get where I am coming from?? but, more importantly, are we cool???
Dylan P.
Nice to see you Jon. Look man, as I told Doug, he thread was not my opinion, but more of a bunch of critical thoughts thrown into one giant ball. The thread was meant to get you to think critically as well as debate. I have suceeded there, would you agree??? Also, my opinion will be posted after i finish typing this. Now, let me take your post piece by pice.
1: Thanks for tidying up the thread dude.
2: I hope you are not saying that I, myself, complain about not seeing demos in their entirety because I don't believe I ever have.
3: You will see my ideason the purchasing of effects when i type up my oinion in a few moments.
4: Music, Jon, often has that issue, and the person who has used that music is often tried by court and then must pay royalties to the original creator. That usually doesn't happen in magic.
5: I never said that we don't advance, you'll hear my opinion on that, too. Also, It is not like I reverse engineer every effect I see, the only one was Shapeshifter, and it was a total accident, I assure you that.
Anyway, Jon thanks for posting. Hopefully all will be clarified soon enough. We cool, bro?
Dylan P.
Always. Doug and I were simply posting our thoughts on the topic.
Looking forward to hearing your own.
D
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I'll admit I was out of line by calling you out on it instead of PMing you. My apologies. I'll do that in the future. Just reading your post kind of annoyed me. My apologies. I was a jerk there. I just thought that it was unfair to call him out like that especially since I don't even think he posts on this forum. (If he does, it's not often.)
I just assumed it was your opinion since you used words such as "My point basically..." and other odd choices of words that normally one only says when saying his or her opinion. My apologies for the misunderstanding if that actually was not your opinion.
You said in your original post that there are 3 kinds of effects.
1. Effects that can be reverse engineered
2. Effects that cannot be reversed engineered
3. Effects that can be re-made thus making it a variation
Once again, I think this was a missunderstanding. I think you were trying to say that the VARIATION is the 3rd kind of effect. I was thinking you were talking about the original effect before it can be made into a variation. (The variation would still fall under the first 2 categories anyway, thus making it irrelevant.) If you couldn't understand what I just said, don't worry about it. It was just a misunderstanding.
I think it can take a lot of work for a layman to find a specific effect. In the past, I used to TRY and find exposure videos for effects I perform without typing in the actual name just to see if a layman could find it. 9/10 times I couldn't find it.
Yes, we are cool. I just think that the different topics brought up in this thread are ridiculous and anyone in magic for more than a few weeks should be able to know this as well. Just my opinion.
-Doug
MY opinion!!!!!
This is my opinion on the subject, the=is thread was never really my opinion on the subject, it was moreso a lot of radical thoughts thrown together in order to provoke critical thinking and debate. At those two things, I have clearly succeeded, there can be no doubt about that. But, at this time I feel it would be appropriate for me to give you my opinion on this subject. Here we go...
Magic is just like anything else. A peice of music, a food recipe, a CD, anything. Soemone or some people create it and then it's marketed to the world. However, anybody that has the desire is able to reverse engineer this thing. Does that make it okay to do? HELL NO!!! If you really have the desire to be able to perform that effect or peice of music, or bake that cake, then you should pay the creator for their invention.They put the man hours into perfecting their invention and deserve to be paid fr their time.
However, if you acidentally learn the actual effect, then you should nbot be faulted as it was an accident. For example I acidentally taught myself toplay AC/.DC's thunderstruck on guitar. It was a mistake. Big deal, We will move on.
But what if you create an effect that is similar to the one you saw but involves a different handling, or different sleights? Well, acording to international copyright laws if you change it by 25% it is legally considered your own invention. That's why Oswald the Rabbit, Felix The Cat, and Mickey Mouse all look the same except they have different feet and ears. So creating your own variation is 100% acceptable.
Also, as magicians we advance everyday, that is why we have come out with tricks such as RIOT or TAGGED. These, the camera doesn't even pick up. Also, some people have designed tricks that are mean to fool the camera, using editing or camera cuts. It just shows that when push comes to shove we stay strong and keep climbing up the hill of success, regardless of how steep that hill may get.
It is in fact true that most of our tricks that we perform today are mostly variations on old effects, but we still create new effects that the world has never seen. It's how we stay on our feet as entertainers.
But honestly, if you like a trick so much that you are contemplating sitting in front of a computer screen for five days in order to reverse engineer it, just buy the effect and save yourself some time. That way, you'll learn the effect, You won't get bashed for reverse engineering, and the createor will get his money just like he should....
Dylan P.
This is my opinion on the subject, the=is thread was never really my opinion on the subject, it was moreso a lot of radical thoughts thrown together in order to provoke critical thinking and debate. At those two things, I have clearly succeeded, there can be no doubt about that. But, at this time I feel it would be appropriate for me to give you my opinion on this subject. Here we go...
Magic is just like anything else. A peice of music, a food recipe, a CD, anything. Soemone or some people create it and then it's marketed to the world. However, anybody that has the desire is able to reverse engineer this thing. Does that make it okay to do? HELL NO!!! If you really have the desire to be able to perform that effect or peice of music, or bake that cake, then you should pay the creator for their invention.They put the man hours into perfecting their invention and deserve to be paid fr their time.
However, if you acidentally learn the actual effect, then you should nbot be faulted as it was an accident. For example I acidentally taught myself toplay AC/.DC's thunderstruck on guitar. It was a mistake. Big deal, We will move on.
But what if you create an effect that is similar to the one you saw but involves a different handling, or different sleights? Well, acording to international copyright laws if you change it by 25% it is legally considered your own invention. That's why Oswald the Rabbit, Felix The Cat, and Mickey Mouse all look the same except they have different feet and ears. So creating your own variation is 100% acceptable.
Also, as magicians we advance everyday, that is why we have come out with tricks such as RIOT or TAGGED. These, the camera doesn't even pick up. Also, some people have designed tricks that are mean to fool the camera, using editing or camera cuts. It just shows that when push comes to shove we stay strong and keep climbing up the hill of success, regardless of how steep that hill may get.
It is in fact true that most of our tricks that we perform today are mostly variations on old effects, but we still create new effects that the world has never seen. It's how we stay on our feet as entertainers.
But honestly, if you like a trick so much that you are contemplating sitting in front of a computer screen for five days in order to reverse engineer it, just buy the effect and save yourself some time. That way, you'll learn the effect, You won't get bashed for reverse engineering, and the createor will get his money just like he should....
Dylan P.
1: thanks for the apology. No worries. He hates me and I don't know why.
2: I was just free writing all of these ideas. I wanted to get them down before I forgot them all, so I never edied them. my mistake.
3: You are correct sir!
4: Still doesn't mean that they can't try.
5: Agreed. But again this was meant to bring up critical thinking and debate. It worked did it not???
Dylan P.
Well one thing is sure; after reading through all that I am better for it.
I'm glad this was brought up and discussed so respectfully.
I'm glad this was brought up and discussed so respectfully.
For anyone to call this morally or ethically wrong is retarded. You might as well just close your eyes while watching. We are naturally curious, so no doubt we're going to start thinking about methods. And on top of that we're magicians. So that added sense of creativity is there. He'll I'd applaud for someone reverse engineering an effect. But still who's to tell them that their method is the same way?
They took initiative and did what they could. They're not stealing anything. It's a risk that is taken when videos of the effect are put out.
Mitch
They took initiative and did what they could. They're not stealing anything. It's a risk that is taken when videos of the effect are put out.
Mitch
Mitchell,
I agree completely. As magicians, it's obviously extremely difficult to view an effect without your creativity engine revving up. But a line is crossed when you repeatedly view a video demo for the sole purpose of figuring out the methodology behind an effect - so you can add it to your own repertoire. There is definitely a fine distinction there.
To those that say they didn't intentionally 'reverse engineer' the effect - I can understand. Magic is an art based on techniques and, no doubt, similar techniques are used in a variety of effects. That said, if you intend on actually performing the trick thereafter, you should absolutely purchase it. After all, that's partly what you're paying for - the rights to perform the trick, as you wish.
P.S. I'll try not to take offense to you having called me mentally challenged... this time.
Ah I wasn't calling YOU mentally challenged, just that one idea in general...Mitchell,
I agree completely. As magicians, it's obviously extremely difficult to view an effect without your creativity engine revving up. But a line is crossed when you repeatedly view a video demo for the sole purpose of figuring out the methodology behind an effect - so you can add it to your own repertoire. There is definitely a fine distinction there.
To those that say they didn't intentionally 'reverse engineer' the effect - I can understand. Magic is an art based on techniques and, no doubt, similar techniques are used in a variety of effects. That said, if you intend on actually performing the trick thereafter, you should absolutely purchase it. After all, that's partly what you're paying for - the rights to perform the trick, as you wish.
P.S. I'll try not to take offense to you having called me mentally challenged... this time.
Probably used the wrong term there. Of course someone watching a video for the sole purpose of reverse engineering an effect is slightly wrong. But the thing is I see myself thinking of how each effect is done whenever I watch a video. It's just the curiosity in me.
Mitch
Lots of other people have given their opinion. I'll add my two cents worth.
First and foremost, most tricks involve ideas on how to combine sleights/gimmicks/apparatus to achieve a desired magical effect. Ideas can not (and if I may add, should not) be patented. If you figure out the idea behind how a trick is done just by watching it, you are not doing anything illegal.
However, as Jonraiker said earlier, you are crossing a line if you repeatedly watch videos with the intention of reverse engineering them and performing them. This is considered to be stealing by a large number of magicians and I don't see that changing.
I am a newcomer to magic and I find myself figuring out certain simple tricks just by watching a performance of it a couple of times. We are all curious beings and we need not apologetic about that. If the performer is an amateur, chances are he is unintentionally exposing stuff anyway.
I don't see a point in torturing myself with guilt if I happen to figure something out. Mere knowledge can never be morally wrong. As long as I don't perform the effect and profit from it, my conscience is clear.
I find your classification of tricks to be a bit amusing to be honest. I don't think there is any such thing as a trick which cannot be reverse engineered. I think anyone with enough knowledge and experience in magic could reverse engineer almost any close up trick after a few viewings. I'm sure someone like Dai Vernon would be able to figure out most of the new card tricks out in the market without much trouble.
First and foremost, most tricks involve ideas on how to combine sleights/gimmicks/apparatus to achieve a desired magical effect. Ideas can not (and if I may add, should not) be patented. If you figure out the idea behind how a trick is done just by watching it, you are not doing anything illegal.
However, as Jonraiker said earlier, you are crossing a line if you repeatedly watch videos with the intention of reverse engineering them and performing them. This is considered to be stealing by a large number of magicians and I don't see that changing.
I am a newcomer to magic and I find myself figuring out certain simple tricks just by watching a performance of it a couple of times. We are all curious beings and we need not apologetic about that. If the performer is an amateur, chances are he is unintentionally exposing stuff anyway.
I don't see a point in torturing myself with guilt if I happen to figure something out. Mere knowledge can never be morally wrong. As long as I don't perform the effect and profit from it, my conscience is clear.
I find your classification of tricks to be a bit amusing to be honest. I don't think there is any such thing as a trick which cannot be reverse engineered. I think anyone with enough knowledge and experience in magic could reverse engineer almost any close up trick after a few viewings. I'm sure someone like Dai Vernon would be able to figure out most of the new card tricks out in the market without much trouble.