Stop performing for your video camera! Or else!

[Sharog]

...Yes. When one does perform it should be for a live audience- so how do you know that people posting videos don't perform to live audiences? They may have uploaded the video for other people's opinions, and once they've improved, the go out and perform!

I do agree with you ont he matter that people are performing for their video camera and I really agree that is probably why the art of magic is dying. I know some of my friends never perform live and just perform for their cameras.

So on one hand PEOPLE PERFORM LIVE AND NOT FOR YOUR CAMERA!

On the other, 'Longman' you should realize that people may perform live and just not record it! Also, not everyone can afford a decent video camera

Unfortunately it is so that for the real live performers to make a video with no spectator, patter and no interaction and put it on web is like making a sandwich with nothing in it.
Personally i only perform on webcam for friends oversea, and i do that when we have voice-com enabled so we can interact.

How ever i can imaging myself showing an effect or two with some patter around and posting somewhere, but it would feel weird as it is missing some essential parts.

So in certain sense if u see those videos u do have legitimate reason to doubt if that person really do perform live, ofcourse some do but if some do not then it comes back to longman's point as it is a wrong direction in how this all internet thing is going.

 

[Loz]

Let's be realistic here - out of the many thousands of magic videos on youtube (I presume youtube is what you are discussing here) how many normal "laymen" do you actually think go onto youtube and say to themselves "hmmm... what shall I do today? I know, search for magic videos!" The answer is very very few people.

By and large magic videos are seen only by other "magicians" (although it is admittedly hard to describe some of the performers on youtube as magicians) but the majority of the people who see these videos are the people who have bought the effect, know the secret and can perform it reasonably competently. Let's be honest, what kind of person that doesn't know a thing about magic will think to themselves "Ahah, today I will search for The Invisible palm from the Art of Astonishment Series! No one. So who is going to search for that? Well, people who have bought the books, are maybe struggling with the pacing of the trick, need some inspiration for patter or are confused with how a certain move should look.

The good thing about youtube and other video hosting sites is that they allow people to get feedback on their effects and they can get tips on things that they are having problems with. They can network with other magicians and they can be inspired by other people's performances and different interpretations on the effect. To say magic is "being trapped on the internet" is silly. It's inherently wrong to criticise people for having a hobby - you'd be pretty annoyed if say, you bought a DVD teaching you how to cheat at cards because you were interested and wanted to try the techniques out jokingly in a game with your friends, and then some person on the internet you've never met before in your life said "Ahah, now you have to go out and cheat in a poker tournament... or else!"

Just let people do what they want to do.

 

[Ben Long]

Let's be realistic here - out of the many thousands of magic videos on youtube (I presume youtube is what you are discussing here) how many normal "laymen" do you actually think go onto youtube and say to themselves "hmmm... what shall I do today? I know, search for magic videos!" The answer is very very few people.

By and large magic videos are seen only by other "magicians" (although it is admittedly hard to describe some of the performers on youtube as magicians) but the majority of the people who see these videos are the people who have bought the effect, know the secret and can perform it reasonably competently. Let's be honest, what kind of person that doesn't know a thing about magic will think to themselves "Ahah, today I will search for The Invisible palm from the Art of Astonishment Series! No one. So who is going to search for that? Well, people who have bought the books, are maybe struggling with the pacing of the trick, need some inspiration for patter or are confused with how a certain move should look.

The good thing about youtube and other video hosting sites is that they allow people to get feedback on their effects and they can get tips on things that they are having problems with. They can network with other magicians and they can be inspired by other people's performances and different interpretations on the effect. To say magic is "being trapped on the internet" is silly. It's inherently wrong to criticise people for having a hobby - you'd be pretty annoyed if say, you bought a DVD teaching you how to cheat at cards because you were interested and wanted to try the techniques out jokingly in a game with your friends, and then some person on the internet you've never met before in your life said "Ahah, now you have to go out and cheat in a poker tournament... or else!"

Just let people do what they want to do.

I absolutely agree with you up until the last two paragraphs. The point is still that magicians do magic and I believe that magic, when it is performed needs to be done for a live audience, not other magicians on youtube. I'm not saying it's bad to do magic for other magicians. I'm just saying that if one is really committed to being a magician, he or she needs to perform live.

Also, it's fairly easy to tell whether or not somebody is performing live or not. Usually (and stop me if I'm wrong), a still topdown shot of sombody doing magic, without any sound, usually implies that the performance is not live. If you can see or hear spectators, then that probably means that the magician is performing for a live audience.

On the other, 'Longman' you should realize that people may perform live and just not record it! Also, not everyone can afford a decent video camera.

Addressing this, I'm just saying that one doesn't need to use a camera at all. It is not necessary at all.

Finally, addressing the gambling-cheating thing, just Google Ricky Jay. He is the hands-down master of live performance card cheats.

Remember, as magicians, it's our job to entertain and amaze our audience. One can look that up in prettymuch any magic resource that has ever existed.

 

[Shodan]

I think Longman hit a nerve.

 

[Ben Long]

I think Longman hit a nerve.

I think Longman is confused...

 

[Pots54]

I don't really think its up to you to decide whether people should or shouldn't perform in front of their camera, that they thought of making a video. I wonder what it would be like in the media section here at Theory11. Yes, it would be empty. Maybe people perform in front of the camera, so they can get feedback and then go out on the streets and perform. As Magicians here are watching the videos, they know what to look for, and how to fix it. Thats why the media section is here. To enhance a trick before going out, or maybe just to perfect a trick. This thread was a pointless idea and it was very un-called for. Think before you type/speak.

-|P54

 

[Loz]

I absolutely agree with you up until the last two paragraphs. The point is still that magicians do magic and I believe that magic, when it is performed needs to be done for a live audience, not other magicians on youtube. I'm not saying it's bad to do magic for other magicians. I'm just saying that if one is really committed to being a magician, he or she needs to perform live.

Remember, as magicians, it's our job to entertain and amaze our audience. One can look that up in prettymuch any magic resource that has ever existed.

Whilst I do honestly understand where you're coming from and can see it from your side, surely you can understand that not everyone wants or feels the need to perform. I'm perfectly happy with my magic staying as a hobby, and I'm not so arrogant as to class myself as a magician. I'm a person who enjoys practicing magic and performing it occasionally whenever someone catches wind of the fact that I enjoy magic. The only "magicians" on this website are the people like Lee Asher, Wayne Houchin, Justin Miller etc who make a living from their magic, and therefore it is their job to entertain people - not your average person like you or me (sorry, I don't know what you do!) who practices magic as a hobby because it is enjoyable.

As Derren Brown put it in one of his books, lots of people tell jokes, but only the most arrogant and self obsessed would call themselves a comic. The same goes for magicians - I'm not so arrogant as to call myself a magician because I can do a pretty good ACR and a few tricks from the Trilogy, and thus my only responsibilities as far as I'm concerned to the magic community are to never expose a trick, and help other people as much as they can if they have a problem. It's the magicians job to "entertain and amaze" as you put it - but some people are perfectly happy not being magicians because we do not actively seek the attention that performing magic brings.

So for those among us who are not magicians and simply hobbyists, and we want to post our tricks on youtube (obviously when they are performed to a decent enough level to prevent exposure) simply to get feedback and new ideas, please leave us the hell alone. Thank you.

 

[Ben Long]

Whilst I do honestly understand where you're coming from and can see it from your side, surely you can understand that not everyone wants or feels the need to perform. I'm perfectly happy with my magic staying as a hobby, and I'm not so arrogant as to class myself as a magician. I'm a person who enjoys practicing magic and performing it occasionally whenever someone catches wind of the fact that I enjoy magic. The only "magicians" on this website are the people like Lee Asher, Wayne Houchin, Justin Miller etc who make a living from their magic, and therefore it is their job to entertain people - not your average person like you or me (sorry, I don't know what you do!) who practices magic as a hobby because it is enjoyable.

As Derren Brown put it in one of his books, lots of people tell jokes, but only the most arrogant and self obsessed would call themselves a comic. The same goes for magicians - I'm not so arrogant as to call myself a magician because I can do a pretty good ACR and a few tricks from the Trilogy, and thus my only responsibilities as far as I'm concerned to the magic community are to never expose a trick, and help other people as much as they can if they have a problem. It's the magicians job to "entertain and amaze" as you put it - but some people are perfectly happy not being magicians because we do not actively seek the attention that performing magic brings.

So for those among us who are not magicians and simply hobbyists, and we want to post our tricks on youtube (obviously when they are performed to a decent enough level to prevent exposure) simply to get feedback and new ideas, please leave us the hell alone. Thank you.

All I'll say to this is that I would hope that everyone who participates in this art would take pride in it.

I don't really think its up to you to decide whether people should or shouldn't perform in front of their camera, that they thought of making a video. I wonder what it would be like in the media section here at Theory11. Yes, it would be empty. Maybe people perform in front of the camera, so they can get feedback and then go out on the streets and perform. As Magicians here are watching the videos, they know what to look for, and how to fix it. Thats why the media section is here. To enhance a trick before going out, or maybe just to perfect a trick. This thread was a pointless idea and it was very un-called for. Think before you type/speak.

-|P54

All I'll say to this is that it was already addressed. Take time to read the entire thread before you so assumingly post. Think before you type/speak.

 

[Shodan]

Take a look at the "non-comedians" on youtube who put up videos of themselves telling jokes. To me that says "dude, get a life".

Now think about where that puts the "non-magicians" who stick their videos up on youtube.

I mean whatever, do your own thing. It doesn't really impact on my day. I think what it does boil down to in the end though, is focus. Some of the best magicians have not been paid performers. Look for example at the great John Bannon, widely respected throughout the magic community. Is he "not a magician"? Does he waste his time filming himself doing magic to stick it online? What's the difference between him and you?

If your focus is on making videos, then you'll make some pretty decent videos. What if your focus was on being creative? Or on learning about a different branch of magic? Or on anything else? You get good at what you spend time doing, and I can think of many more rewarding goals than putting decent videos up on the internet.

But like I said, do your own thing man. The more people spend their time picking out just the right music for their latest video, the less people there are spending their time on more worthwhile pursuits, and that makes the rest of us special

 

[Loz]

Take a look at the "non-comedians" on youtube who put up videos of themselves telling jokes. To me that says "dude, get a life".

I'm sure any onlooker watching people arguing about something like this on an internet forum would think exactly the same thing.

But like I said, do your own thing man. The more people spend their time picking out just the right music for their latest video, the less people there are spending their time on more worthwhile pursuits, and that makes the rest of us special

Making videos is hardly a lengthy process. There's still plenty of time in the day after making our next grainy video with an appropriately depressing audio accompaniment for a tasty microwave meal followed by a gentle wank in our moldy basements. 'Cos that's all we non magician types do, right? Because, you know, magic means absolutely everything in the entire world and all we crave is to be well respected in the community like the great John Bannon. Or maybe we have more important things to think about. Not everyone is absolutely obsessed with the great art that is magic and spends their time pleasuring themselves over Dai Vernon.

In fact, why are you even here arguing about this?, Go out and perform, man! Make a difference! Change someone's life! Be special!

Ah crap, I just realised I insulted Dai Vernon on a magic forum. Time to make myself scarce, I hope none of you guys have my address

 

[Shodan]

Hey man, you're the one who insisted on labelling yourself such. And, if you don't think that being great at what you do is a worthwhile goal, then I feel sad for you!

I perform in order to change my own life. Being able to eat and live in a house is pretty important to me

 

[Loz]

Hey man, you're the one who insisted on labelling yourself such. And, if you don't think that being great at what you do is a worthwhile goal, then I feel sad for you!

I perform in order to change my own life. Being able to eat and live in a house is pretty important to me

Yeah, believe it or not I wasn't being entirely serious there. My basement just had a new coat of paint, all the mold is gone completely

And living in a house and being able to eat sounds good to me as well, I just don't earn it by performing magic, I earn it with a job that doesn't have anything to do with magic! Pretty radical, I know.

Maybe you didn't read what I posted - I'm not a magician. I don't strive to be great at what I do because magic isn't "what I do." It's a hobby and it is only a hobby. Now please stop judging people you don't know over an internet forum.

 

[Shodan]

Perhaps, judging from the strength of your protestations that you "aren't a magician", and "magic is not what I do", you shouldn't be spending your time replying to a topic that is about magic as a performance art.

Quite aside from the fact that you are being pretty rude about it, I'd think you had better things to do with your time; after all, magic is just a hobby for you, isn't that right?

 

[Loz]

Perhaps, judging from the strength of your protestations that you "aren't a magician", and "magic is not what I do", you shouldn't be spending your time replying to a topic that is about magic as a performance art.

Maybe I just get annoyed when people start throwing the term loser around when they haven't even met the person. And perhaps I'll decide how to spend my time, thanks.

And I'm sorry if I offended you. And since we're discussing my personal life, there's not really any point in reading this topic anymore (lolololol my life is so boring) So see ya.

 

[Shodan]

*looks in vain through the topic to find the point at which he called Loz a loser*

 

[Loz]

That was longman But I'm meant to be gone anyway so see ya... again

 

[Ben Long]

Hmmm...

Why don't we call it a wrap on this thread. I doubt this will end up anywhere attractive.

Sorry If I implied that anyone is a loser. You're all winners (or something)!

Anybody seen Wes Anderson's new film yet? It was good (not spectacular).

 

[Jun Fan Hsu]

I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH LONGMAN.

There's nothing wrong with getting feedback every once in a while on the net but in order to truly express yourself through magic an "audience" should be present and then you will also have a greater sense of accomplishment which will eliminate your denial of being a magician. So, put down "Trilogy" and start sudying Eugene Burgers "Close-UP Gourmet" magic. Just kidding. But am I? Maybe it would be more practical to have a balanced approach by having the courage to practice in front of a live audience even every once in a while so that way your communication, timing, technique and confidence grow. You will feel much better about your magic when performing for real people.

I think the real issue here is fear of the unknown. Magicians(or wanna be magicians) intend to "ONE DAY" practice or perform in front of an audience when everything is perfect. The problem is, nothing will ever be "perfect." Of course you must practice in solitude first but do not wait forever to give it a shot. Your fear will only get worse. How do I know? Because I used to be afraid also and still am a lot of times. But eventually, I became serious in my journey and decided to take a risk even though my perormance was not 100%. You will hit difficulty but no objective worth achieving will never not have difficulty. So, are you the type of person that keeps falling down or keeps getting up? I dare anyone reading this to shut of their computer right now and go out and perform a trick for a lay audience and I guaruntee you will feel better. If not, you will just sit idle and have pipe dreams that will make your life miserable because you know what you should be doing. **** fear but don't let fear **** with what you "DO" to attain your dreams. Hope that helps.

 

[cardmstr]

I'm with Longman.

A video camera is an excellent practise tool, allowing you to evaluate your performance. However, there is simply no good reason to stick a video of yourself doing magic tricks onto the web, other than to get feedback from the people watching. You might be reading this thinking "that's a pretty sodding good reason right there!", but the fact is you are going to get feedback/reactions from a live audience too. And of course, the live audience does not have the opportunity to sit there and watch your video over and over and over again trying to figure out how it is done.

We've all seen comments on Youtube videos along the lines of "look at 2:17, u can c he hsa 2 cards!!"

Magic doesn't really stand up to repeated viewings, especially not from a fixed perspective! You can't misdirect a camera, and misdirection is one of the single most important skills of the magician. It is very difficult to present to a camera, and presentation is an integral part of any magic trick. So even if you post a technically competent "solo video", you are not really demonstrating the skills that make you a magician. So, what's the point?

On a personal note, once I realised that I was actually performing to a decent standard, and that at least some of my ideas, tricks and sleights were original (to my knowledge anyway), I stopped even thinking about posting them online. The reason why? I want to be special. I want my magic to be unique. I want to be able to catch people off guard with something they haven't seen before! And I know how easy it is to reverse engineer even the most devious trick by watching it being done a few times - I don't want that to happen to my magic!

All you get from posting videos of you doing tricks online is - best case scenario - some ego stroking from either your magician peers and/or laymen. This is at the expense of people spending time trying to figure out how it is done - and probably succeeding.

XCM is exempt from this argument. By all means, throw your videos online, put a grungy backing track to it - if the music is decent it may actually make the video bearable!

you hit the nail directly on the head as far as i'm concerned. The number one rule of magic: NEVER repeat a trick to the same audience. putting up video clips on public video servers kind of destroys the point of that "rule".

very interesting topic indeed.

 

[DylPickle]

You don't think this vid is doing a lot to help promote the art?
http://www.break.com/index/kid-screws-up-world-greatest-card-trick.html

I don't know if this is funny or sad.