The Same or Different?

Are the performances using the same techniques?

  • Yes, they are the same techniquewise

    Votes: 5 35.7%
  • No, they are different

    Votes: 9 64.3%

  • Total voters
    14
Status
Not open for further replies.
I debated with a friend and think it would be neat to see what you guys think about it. In the following vid you see two performances, Performance/Slowmo 1 and Performance/Slowmo 2 (dont worry, it isnt any secret material, all the footage is on the artists youtube).

http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=262p3c9&s=4

The question is: Are these two performances using the same techniques or not?

Be sure to watch the full video before giving your answer, Slowmos too because at normal speed it may be difficult. Also, this is not a trick question or anything. It may be simple, you may think its stupid, but I am very interested in the results
 

Vinnie C.

cardistry moderator / t11
Aug 31, 2007
352
2
Los Angeles, CA
They are pretty obviously different. And, given how he executed the "Performance 2", it doesn't look like he's actually able to do the move smoothly - which is one of the likely reasons that he faked it. Using a fake performance certainly is easier than actually practicing a move to make it look perfect.

Damn shame, I hate seeing stuff like this.

Best,
Vince
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,736
2,851
I watched the video on his page, I didn't see the live web cast. I don't need to. I only tried a couple times after watching the video and I can already come close to doing it proficiently. I have absolutely no reason to believe if I worked with this for a few months I couldn't do it smoothly enough for performance. In fact, I have every intention of adding this to my repertoire.

While I haven't paid yet, after my next paycheck I will be. It's good work and if anything, I have only lost faith in the Convincing Control 'debunkers'.
 

Vinnie C.

cardistry moderator / t11
Aug 31, 2007
352
2
Los Angeles, CA
I watched the video on his page, I didn't see the live web cast. I don't need to. I only tried a couple times after watching the video and I can already come close to doing it proficiently. I have absolutely no reason to believe if I worked with this for a few months I couldn't do it smoothly enough for performance. In fact, I have every intention of adding this to my repertoire.

While I haven't paid yet, after my next paycheck I will be. It's good work and if anything, I have only lost faith in the Convincing Control 'debunkers'.

If you compare the two performances (one from his trailer, and one of him actually doing it), you can see how extremely different they are. His finger positions are very different in the trailer "performance", and he does not palm a card. It's obviously a duplicate card used to make the trailer look smoother.

While I agree that anyone can make it look smooth with practice - the same is true for any move - what we see in this video isn't someone performing a move proficiently, we see them performing it too well. His fingers aren't in the right places to execute, the windows in his fingers should be flashing the card, and there was obviously no palm.

We all know he can do it, and it's a great little move, but he cannot do it this well. His actual performance of the move shown in the tutorial is night-and-day different, and displays the way the move actually needs to be done in order to work, and it's no where as smooth as in the trailer.

Remember, no one is criticizing the move, only his use of a fake performance to sell it.

Best,
Vince
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,736
2,851
Except for the part where multiple industry experts have confirmed that he can palm that quickly, with his fingers in that position, and that he taught a group of people on Tinychat how to do it as well.

Yes, he took the best of a few takes but he would be a fool not to.

Sorry, I personally think you're wrong in this instance. What I saw was someone taking footage showing the best example of a move, followed by a tutorial where he didn't care quite as much that it look 100% perfect. Having watched the explanation, and doing it right now, I can see exactly why he can keep his fingers open.

I believe the trailer is a genuine, if ideal performance. We'll probably just have to agree to disagree on this point.
 
Aug 11, 2012
48
0
If you compare the two performances (one from his trailer, and one of him actually doing it), you can see how extremely different they are. His finger positions are very different in the trailer "performance", and he does not palm a card. It's obviously a duplicate card used to make the trailer look smoother.

While I agree that anyone can make it look smooth with practice - the same is true for any move - what we see in this video isn't someone performing a move proficiently, we see them performing it too well. His fingers aren't in the right places to execute, the windows in his fingers should be flashing the card, and there was obviously no palm.

We all know he can do it, and it's a great little move, but he cannot do it this well. His actual performance of the move shown in the tutorial is night-and-day different, and displays the way the move actually needs to be done in order to work, and it's no where as smooth as in the trailer.

Remember, no one is criticizing the move, only his use of a fake performance to sell it.

Best,
Vince

He did not use a fake performance to sell it. Watch it closely.
 
Dec 20, 2012
58
0
I have watched it as carefully as it gets, and still think it's (the palm) faked.

The key is his right thumb. It never goes anywhere near the bottom of the fan to retain a card into palm.

There should also be a sidestealing action to the palm, as the card needs to be slid out from under the fan. However his hand remains straight above the deck when he 'palms' the card. Here you can see it http://imgur.com/a/D4jOL
That is not taking into account the fact that he can apparently classic palm that quickly with that little movement, along with the lovely bonus of having his fingers wide open.
In the second picture there is no way he has a card concealed in his hand, after no pressing up by the thumb to secure it there.
 

Vinnie C.

cardistry moderator / t11
Aug 31, 2007
352
2
Los Angeles, CA
He did not use a fake performance to sell it. Watch it closely.

I've watched it 6 times (now 7). It, and its accompanying performance in the tutorial version.

Again, I don't doubt that this move can be performed to exceptional standards - my main issue is the massive discrepancy between the trailer performance and the tutorial. This is not a small difference. If he can perform it that smoothly at the drop of a hat, as many have claimed, why would he use a take during the tutorial where the move was clunky and obvious? Even the "full-speed" performance he used at the beginning of the tutorial was not as impressive as the trailer. It was smooth, but the method was a good deal more evident.

Let me put it this way: I don't doubt that his trailer performance could be real, but I do doubt that it is. If it was legit, he should be able to perform it at least close to that well for the tutorial. But for the tutorial his finger positions are different, it's clunkier, sloppier, and more obvious.

Also, who are "multiple industry experts" who confirmed that he is capable of palming the top card of a deck when he never obscures it? Logic dictates that to palm off the top card, the top of the deck has to be at least momentarily obscured. It's not. At all times we can see at least part of the top card, and it doesn't move.

Given his thumb position, it would be near impossible for him to get it under and scoop the card to the top. The only time his thumb enters any sort of "ready" position to execute this move is after the cards have already been set together again. During the moment he teaches you to execute this move in, his thumb isn't actually in a position to do it.

And if he can palm so easily with open fingers, why wasn't that the method he taught in the tutorial? Instead of the clunkier, easier, closed-hand method he used.

Again, I don't doubt it's possible, but there is a good deal of evidence to the contrary.

Best,
Vince
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Jan 12, 2010
64
0
It's nice to see some people here like Vinnie and NapoleonII, who don't lose track of the actual discussion and question, not like people at the Magic Café.

The discussion and question are about whether the demo performances were fake... or at least different from what's taught in the tutorial. Never has it been about if Alan is able to perform this live and how good he is at now, which is what people who are defending it are saying. It's got absolutely nothing to do with that, so how could anyone even see that as evidence supporting Alan and the demo performances?

The techniques in the performances are definitely different. The techniques in the demo performance definitely are not the same as what is seen in the tutorial either. And I would call fake on the demo performances anytime because obviously the card is pushed back into the deck instead of controlled.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thank you for the replies and keep them coming! I thought it was different and fake but my friend said it was not.

He actually saw the live tinychat and recorded it. He now thinks its fake too. In the livechat Alan Rorrison said it was fine to post any recording.

Watch this: http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2n222xw&s=4 (censored because of lot of foul language)

The first performance he says we watch the thumb he doesn't do anything or even try and the second is as bad as from the tutorial (performance/slowmo 2) but he seems proud of it.
 

Vinnie C.

cardistry moderator / t11
Aug 31, 2007
352
2
Los Angeles, CA
It's nice to see some people here like Vinnie and NapoleonII, who don't lose track of the actual discussion and question, not like people at the Magic Café.

The discussion and question are about whether the demo performances were fake... or at least different from what's taught in the tutorial. Never has it been about if Alan is able to perform this live and how good he is at now, which is what people who are defending it are saying. It's got absolutely nothing to do with that, so how could anyone even see that as evidence supporting Alan and the demo performances?

The techniques in the performances are definitely different. The techniques in the demo performance definitely are not the same as what is seen in the tutorial either. And I would call fake on the demo performances anytime because obviously the card is pushed back into the deck instead of controlled.

Agreed. I also just combed through the Cafe thread - wow, that conversation was all over the place.

Thank you for the replies and keep them coming! I thought it was different and fake but my friend said it was not.

He actually saw the live tinychat and recorded it. He now thinks its fake too. In the livechat Alan Rorrison said it was fine to post any recording.

Watch this: http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=2n222xw&s=4 (censored because of lot of foul language)

The first performance he says we watch the thumb he doesn't do anything or even try and the second is as bad as from the tutorial (performance/slowmo 2) but he seems proud of it.

That kind of sums all this up.

Best,
Vince
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Lyle Borders

vp of operations // theory11
Staff member
Aug 5, 2008
1,566
792
Seattle, WA
www.theory11.com
Alright gentleman. I have no problems leaving productive discussions open in the forums, however I have now seen people entering this discussion who are directly a part of the accusing party pretending to be simple observers. We encourage open discussion here, but as this is a non-theory11 trick, and the conversation is beginning to turn to slander, I am locking this one up.

To those of you who are involved with this (you know who you are, as this is not our first discussion), further conversation of this sort will result in swift and permanent banning.

// L
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Searching...
{[{ searchResultsCount }]} Results