Unnecessary Patter = Useless & Irrelevant?

[PjPinsonnault]

It's odd, but I actually know what he's talking about. I don't think it's necessary to invent a new word for bad writing and poor delivery, but this guy's got a point.

I have seen such bad scripting performed at conventions and meetings that I found myself pitying magic in a way. Then I found out that these same folks are out WORKING, pushing their mediocrity on the masses. It's scary stuff, folks.

This does not mean you should scrap your scripts (holy alliteration batman!), just that you should raise your game.

Buy some books on writing, especially creative writing and dialogue development. You are the Magician, the main character in your mini magic show Play, so write yourself as the hero and take pride in what you have to say. Stephen King's On Writing is a great place to start. His true stories in the beginning will give you a sense of how you could bring your life into your scripting.

I see your point, Brianation, but I think your dogma's a little biased.

Pj

 

[PjPinsonnault]

I should mention that I do recognize how some effects simply work stronger with little or no patter.

I performed Aaron Fisher's The Rising at a table with a girl who was deaf. Her parents thought she wouldn't like magic, because she might feel left out. So I performed it silently for her. She hugged me and whispered "Thank you" to me when I finished.

It's probably the most memorable effect I've ever performed for the public because of the impact it had.

Still, I have faith in scripting.

 

[BrianationX]

You know what I would love to see you tell Darren Brown to cut the mouth garbage from his act.


-Michael

Darren Brown doesn't have any MouthGarbage does he?
I don't think so
Is he a magician
No?

 

[Medifro]

Brianation, if you want to have a serious discussion, use mature words and be respectful.

Honestly, if you're going with that attitude, how the heck do you expect to be taken seriously?!

Flaming comes from immature people. You get alot of that because you are acting immaturely. Don't insult magicians by saying "mouth garbage". Be respectful and you will learn.

I actually took you seriously and answered, now I read your posts and you are defending without a point of argument. Do yourself a favor, get Darwin Ortiz's Strong Magic, and go perform and learn yourself, experiment, think and apply.

I checked back on your posts and I find many of them immature. Unless you get an attitude of a student, don't expect any serious advice.

Derren Brown is a magician was well as a mentalist. Also, I don't recall mentalists allowed to use "mouth garbage"?!

 

[Mr.MadMan]

Exactly but what about all those other magicians that waste the time giving out false explanations or Stories that don't advance the effect.

"Right here I have four jacks....These are called the crazy jacks,they are so crazy that they will always jump to the top,you know how some beans jump,you call them jumping beans...well these are jumping jacks.....These jacks jump because.....ect."


or


"you know how I did that..Well there is a magic button in the back of every ace ....If you push the magic button...."


or even when they are performing and in the middle they start talking about some irrelevant story that only pauses and confuses the audience


"wait...you have to wait a couple of seconds for the battery to charge..When the battery charges the card will fly from this hand and land over there in the cardboard box which is going to be the garage....You know how cars need power to operate..Cards cant move if they have no energy...if you rub your hands really fast and then put your hands near the cards they will magically get charged with your magical energy........do you feel the energy being transfered to the card....ect"

After two minutes the lady wont remember why she is doing that for
Or she will know that its all BS.

btw-I created that trick way back when was a kid
It has now evolved to a more realistic MouthGarbageLess Routine

Youve Got a superb point there!
You should have brought those examples up a long time ago. Sorry for my previous roudness i was thinking waaay diffrently than you.

That kind of presentations are so stupid. Ive seen them on beginners who do street magic. Geez thats boring. You find that kind of presentations on people who dont bother to take the time and make a proper presentation. I dont do a trick until ive gotten the method and presentation in my head haunting me.

Im all hands with you now. That kind of MouthGarbage Has to go. People need to put equal amount of time to the Presentation and Method. The method is useless without a presentation that fits the trick.

Mikk

PS: Derren is a magician. Mentalism is magic too.

 

[Ampersan5340]

I didn't watch all of his work but the rising aces was pretty good

I didn't hear no MouthGarbage in it and the cups and balls made sense
But in the Ortiz I kinda felt that he could remove the story and still have a great effect.

he wasted 1:20 talking about useless boring story
He could have started the trick at 1:21 and it would have been just as impressive

Are you actually stupid? What's coming out of your mouth is mouthgarbage.

Like the professor said in Revelations ,"They want to hear a story"

You could do tivo transpo and simply say ,"if we look the cards have transposed" but you'll get a bad response all the audience will say is ,"that was pretty cool"

90% presentation 10% magic

 

[ThrallMind]

Brian, I am going to be as regal as possible, because no matter how wrong someone may be, they do not deserve rudeness, and I apologize if I was rude in any of my previous responses to you.

You probably don't agree but

This is a bad way to start a post if you don't want arguments

You waste most of your time with MouthGarbage when you can just do the effect

Assuming what you say is MouthGarbage. It is only MouthGarbage if crap is in fact being spewed out of your mouth for the sake of speaking. This does NOT mean that every bit of patter is for the sake of speaking.

Here are some examples. Please watch them. You expect us to watch your videos, so watch ours when we ask.

Jason Latimer - Cups and Balls : No speaking at all, awesome effect. It works for this.

Bill Malone - Sam the Bellhop : LOTS of speaking. Amazing sleight of hand. Without the patter, the trick makes no sense.

What I'm saying is, you cannot say that 100% of the time patter is useless. On the flip side, you cannot say that 100% of the time you need patter.

Have any of you guys actually tried it
Don't be biased and think a little

I have. It all depends on the spectator. Some like the mystery, others love a story to go with it.

I find it that doing a routine without patter gives me 89% more time for Magic
Usually is 89% MouthGarbage and 11% magic

YOU find. It works for you. What works for you doesn't work for everyone.

And you don't have to be Mute
You can explain but without all the useless stupid MouthGarbage some people do

"Every card has a button.....,There is a Rocket card......,when I snap my fingers...,In casinos...,you know how some people cheat at poker....,the ace are... a long time ago....when the two cards.....one card is heavier...well I gave my cards to this drunk ...he shuffled...."

Well, please tell me what the difference between explanation and MouthGarbage.

And Also the jokes,they got to go,they take away from the magic

Please don't start this again.

"When I was younger a lot of the old school magicians would often talk SH** of what I was doing"
What these Old school magicians have to realize is that MouthGarbage is no longer necessary
The audience doesn't need any stories or false explanations
Just do the trick and get it over with

Again, not trying to sound rude, but I could quote many famous people in my responses. Doesn't mean it makes it fact.

Everyone needs to watch this first and then post your opinions or hate towards me
You wont be disappointed

This is the usual work I do with cards and some of the most innovative and original magic around

By Forces Unseen,The magic is so powerful and Direct that you will take away from it if you confuse your audience with MouthGarbage(take note on the Triumph)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F0wxinoS4eI

This Magic is so Visual That you don't need to justify it with MouthGarbage
You must see this Video,Effects from Some of the best Magicians you probably don't know about
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=tks9xf13Pqs

Same Here,The Magic is so good it speaks for itself
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JpvhdVPHO88

And Of course
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Smuj3bHbkz8

And please stop making assumptions. "Effects from Some of the best Magicians you probably don't know about." And in your hecklers post, saying 'I dont Face this Problem often But I bet Most of you do." It's just bad form.

-ThrallMind

P.S. I hope you take the time to read that and watch the video, and not just comment on this afterthought.

 

[Arthur Pitt]

Like the professor said in Revelations ,"They want to hear a story"

Exactly.

Repped on a different forum.

Straight from Vernon, in his 80s. After a lifetime of magical experience.

 

[mattlee]

Oh look. Its you.

I shall address you with the same tone you are using. I have shown you courtesy and respect in the previous thread and I've had enough.

Same topic as the last time. And we had what? 6 plus pages of replies basically saying you have the intellect of an ant and the linguistic skills of a retarded monkey.

Seriously, how many times you want to 'discuss' this? Are you just upset that nobody agrees with you? Awwww look at the poor spoilt kid cry.

I think you're a troll that's suffering from a bad case of tudorgasm.

If anyone actually wants to follow the previous thread on exactly the same thing, its here: http://forums.theory11.com/showthread.php?t=9179

 

[Volcan]

I completely agree with you about the patter with cards having buttons, rockets, time machines.. I can't stand that kind of presentation.

 

[BrianationX]

Bill Malone - Sam the Bellhop : LOTS of speaking. Amazing sleight of hand. Without the patter, the trick makes no sense.

What I'm saying is, you cannot say that 100% of the time patter is useless. On the flip side, you cannot say that 100% of the time you need patter.

Well, please tell me what the difference between explanation and MouthGarbage.

Well I saw the Video and I'm just going to quote some of the laymen there

"Can't this guy just do some tricks and stop talking so much.
"It's annoying."

"can anybody add subtitles to this video please? because I know the trick and I can do it...but I don´t understand all the story... :S thanks"

"Does anybody else find this kind of magic absolutely interminable? I know that the kind of people watching these videos probably know enough to be armchair commentators but these kind of things are the magical equivalent of long, self-indulgent guitar solos if you ask me."

"talking and talking..."

"gay"

"Strange...this is the same audience that is on the Banachek PSI series. Obviously not a real audience..."

"i think that hes an excellent card man without a doubt; but i just dont like his showmanship.. hes a jerk to his audience members.. hes like the stuck up; old cranky magician stereotype..."

"He wasted 5 minutes of my life."

Laymen don't like MouthGarbage,if you don't believe me ask yourself

I know that if he doesn't talk there wont be any "effect" but like a laymen said it gets annoying

Explanation if when you guide your audience through a trick like saying cut the deck,I'm going to sandwich your cards..remember this card....ect

like Dan And Dave

MouthGarbage is what I said before, Useless Patter

 

[Ahmed Fouad]

Brian Tudor (i think) here is trying to make an excellent point and i totally agree

Whatever that is said that has nothing to do with understanding a trick is not needed

All the stories behind card tricks are just useless and make people really bored and im saying this from experience

When doing a trick , just get straight to the point , and don't waste the spectator's time taking nonsense.

 

[Chase]

"Can't this guy just do some tricks and stop talking so much.
"It's annoying."

"Does anybody else find this kind of magic absolutely interminable? I know that the kind of people watching these videos probably know enough to be armchair commentators but these kind of things are the magical equivalent of long, self-indulgent guitar solos if you ask me."

"talking and talking..."

"gay"

"i think that hes an excellent card man without a doubt; but i just dont like his showmanship.. hes a jerk to his audience members.. hes like the stuck up; old cranky magician stereotype..."

"He wasted 5 minutes of my life."

Laymen don't like MouthGarbage,if you don't believe me ask yourself

Wow. Those quotes pretty much sum up how I feel about you.

Here's a woefully incomplete list of magicians that I respect far more than you who have disagreed, in print and performance, with the premise of your post:

Bob Neale
Eugene Burger
Max Maven
Darwin Oritz
Chris Kenner
Tommy Wonder
David Copperfield
Homer Liwag
The Pendragons
John Carney
Dai Vernon
Larry Jennings
Ricky F-ing Jay
Penn Jillette
Jerry Andrus
Paul Harris
Michael Weber
Punx (Call us storytellers)
Blackstone Sr.
Blackstone Jr.
Paul Daniels
Juan Tameriz
Rene Levand
Luis De Matos
Mac King
and... wait for it... the killing stroke...
Dan and Dave. Read their notes or ask them to do a trick they like from someone else's body of work.

I would agree that there is a LOT of bad patter out there. But the problem isn't patter. The problem is bad WRITING. (Even if you don't physically write a paper script, stringing words and phrases together to use in performance is writing.)

 

[ThrallMind]

Well I saw the Video and I'm just going to quote some of the laymen there

"Can't this guy just do some tricks and stop talking so much.
"It's annoying."

"can anybody add subtitles to this video please? because I know the trick and I can do it...but I don´t understand all the story... :S thanks"

"Does anybody else find this kind of magic absolutely interminable? I know that the kind of people watching these videos probably know enough to be armchair commentators but these kind of things are the magical equivalent of long, self-indulgent guitar solos if you ask me."

"talking and talking..."

"gay"

"Strange...this is the same audience that is on the Banachek PSI series. Obviously not a real audience..."

Mind telling me where you got these quotes? And if you say YouTube responses, yea, that's a great place to find truth...

Also, even if they are a "fake" audience, at least there is an audience...

Laymen don't like MouthGarbage,if you don't believe me ask yourself

I have. See, there's something I do before I post that you may want to look into: Researching your facts on people who aren't your friends.

I know that if he doesn't talk there wont be any "effect" but like a laymen said it gets annoying

What laymen do you keep speaking of?

MouthGarbage is what I said before, Useless Patter

Exactly. In Malones act, it isn't useless. It IS the act.

-ThrallMind

 

[copperfield 14]

Sorry for being off topic but how do you seperate the quotes like the way ThrallMind and steerpike do?

 

[Chase]

Brian Tudor (i think) here is trying to make an excellent point and i totally agree

Whatever that is said that has nothing to do with understanding a trick is not needed

All the stories behind card tricks are just useless and make people really bored and im saying this from experience

When doing a trick , just get straight to the point , and don't waste the spectator's time taking nonsense.

That's utter nonsense.

Let's take another piece of performance and dissect it and see if you feel the same:

Hopefully most everyone has already had a chance to take in "Dark Knight" by now. (I'll try not to spoil.)

It clocks in at 2 1/2 hours. That's a long time. It could have taken a lot less time to tell that story. Let's take out some things that weren't needed to understand that story.

Let's start with extra characters. Leave out Lucius Fox, Gordon, Gordon's family, the corrupt cops, the mayor, the judge and first commissioner, the ballet girls, etc. Really the only characters we need to tell this story are Batman, Joker, Harvey Dent, and Rachel. Everyone else can just be played by cardboard cutouts with descriptive words written on them.

Maybe we should have started with the music. It's really just in the back ground, and it doesn't add anything to your understanding of the story. It's gone. Useless.

Next, special effects. They're expensive, and they're just eye candy. We're concerned with telling a story as efficiently as possible. Let's leave out the special effects. If any are really needed to make the story clear we'll just show a well labled line drawing that shows what happens. That will be way quicker and tell the story in a much clearer way. No one will get confused by explosions or fancy camera moves.

Hell, why use actors at all. If we're concerned about story, lets just read the comic book. No need for a movie at all. I can read a comic book way faster than a 2 1/2 hour movie.

Wait a minute... if we're just going to present the plot, we don't even need the drawings. Let's just write down what would happen. We can strip a long drawn out boring movie with lots of things that aren't needed, to:
A crazy homicidal clown fights a good guy dressed as a bat.
That's much better.

Bad patter does not mean that patter is bad.

 

[BrianationX]

Sorry for being off topic but how do you seperate the quotes like the way ThrallMind and steerpike do?

don't

do

this

its

annoying

Don't do that its annoying
People that feel like disecting a post are LOL

 

[BrianationX]

That's utter nonsense.

Really I thought what he said was logical and it made sense too

Let's take another piece of performance and dissect it and see if you feel the same:

Ok then lets do it

Hopefully most everyone has already had a chance to take in "Dark Knight" by now. (I'll try not to spoil.)

I saw it and It was actually pretty good... kind of long

It clocks in at 2 1/2 hours. That's a long time. It could have taken a lot less time to tell that story.

Yeah you are right, maybe an hour and thirty minutes at most

Let's take out some things that weren't needed to understand that story.
Let's start with extra characters. Leave out Lucius Fox, Gordon, Gordon's family, the corrupt cops, the mayor, the judge and first commissioner, the ballet girls, etc. Really the only characters we need to tell this story are Batman, Joker, Harvey Dent, and Rachel. Everyone else can just be played by cardboard cutouts with descriptive words written on them.

You cant compare characters in a movie with MouthGarbage
that
doesn't make any sense

Maybe we should have started with the music. It's really just in the back ground, and it doesn't add anything to your understanding of the story. It's gone. Useless.

Actually the music adds mood to the Movie
Which again is nonsense to comparing a movie soundtrack to MouthGarbage

Next, special effects. They're expensive, and they're just eye candy. We're concerned with telling a story as efficiently as possible. Let's leave out the special effects. If any are really needed to make the story clear we'll just show a well labled line drawing that shows what happens. That will be way quicker and tell the story in a much clearer way. No one will get confused by explosions or fancy camera moves.

This is just nonsense, taking away the effects is like taking the magic from a routine,which still is not a very good comparison

Hell, why use actors at all. If we're concerned about story, lets just read the comic book. No need for a movie at all. I can read a comic book way faster than a 2 1/2 hour movie.

Why would anyone want to read when they can just see the movie

Wait a minute... if we're just going to present the plot, we don't even need the drawings. Let's just write down what would happen. We can strip a long drawn out boring movie with lots of things that aren't needed, to:
A crazy homicidal clown fights a good guy dressed as a bat.
That's much better.

If your comparison was Ok then that would equal to saying "the card will rise to the top" without performing the trick

Bad patter does not mean that patter is bad.

I never said that
I said unnecesary patter is irrelevant to a magic trick

your post was nonsense
You cant compare a movie to a magic trick
And saying that taking everything from a movie is the same as taking MouthGarbage(useless patter) from a trick is just ridiculous

Mind telling me where you got these quotes? And if you say YouTube responses, yea, that's a great place to find truth...
What laymen do you keep speaking of?
in Malones act, it isn't useless. It IS the act.

-ThrallMind

I got those quotes from the people that saw the video
Most of the laymen thought that it was boring,annoying, and some got confused.
Well then I guess the act was Boring and annoying

"Does anybody else find this kind of magic absolutely interminable? I know that the kind of people watching these videos probably know enough to be armchair commentators but these kind of things are the magical equivalent of long, self-indulgent guitar solos if you ask me."

using alot of patter is not that smart

 

[praetoritevong]

Having just read through the entire thread, I feel like you've said a whole lot of stuff without saying much at all. How ironic given the topic of the thread. The only thing I notice is that when you can't answer criticism, you ignore it, and when you address it, you barely justify it with little logic. For example:

Mind telling me where you got these quotes? And if you say YouTube responses, yea, that's a great place to find truth...
What laymen do you keep speaking of?
in Malones act, it isn't useless. It IS the act.

-ThrallMind

I got those quotes from the people that saw the video
Most of the laymen thought that it was boring,annoying, and some got confused.
Well then I guess the act was Boring and annoying

Take a look at that answer. ThrallMind argues that YouTube responses aren't exactly the most accurate responses on the planet, you can't argue against that. And yet your reply is, "I got those quotes from the people that saw the video". Another example of how you ignore criticism and try to bulldoze people with your stubborn opinion.

I'll repeat. The only thing I notice is that when you can't answer criticism, you ignore it, and when you address it, you barely justify it with little logic.

What you attempted: You quoted ThrallMind to attempt to "dissect" this post and counter-argue.
What you did: You quoted ThrallMind, and succeeded in completely ignoring his opinion and continuing with yours without engaging the argument and without any justification. You didn't argue against his opinion. You didn't take it into consideration. You continued with your own opinion in complete ignorance. You didn't even reference what he said.

In effect, the argument went like this.

BrianationX: Laymen on YouTube said this!
ThrallMind: Laymen on YouTube don't necessarily reflect the truth.
BrianationX: ...Yeah, but laymen on YouTube said this!

MouthGarbage much?

 

[OwnerM]

I have to agree with Brian -- up to a point.

First off, I wouldn't call it "Mouth Garbage". Patter works for some magicians and audiences but not others. A lot of patter from tricks I get I almost always adjust it to my style. Sometimes, I perform them without a word.

Here's what I think is the best example of this. Penn and Teller. Look at them. Teller has been doing magic silently looong before Penn, and Penn's patter is so sharp that there's not a word wasted. And yes, Penn's patter style was established long before he met Teller.

I suggest, if you're old enough, to get a copy of the Playboy September 2007 issue and read the article "Teller Speaks". It's well worth it. It's a short autobiography of his life in magic.

He doesn't think patter is necessary, but just tell that to Penn.

My advice is simply find what fits in your style. You may be excellent at slights, but terrible at patter, or vice versa or some kind of combination. Is it always going to be "poetry"? Of course not.

But to call it "Mouth Garbage" is just being superior and standing on a soap box. There's good and bad and sometimes the good is bad at the wrong time. But, you have that choice to fix whatever effect you do to your style.