What t11 Has Become

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by spade15, Apr 10, 2010.

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  1. One word, internet.


    Anyway I don't really bash on either site, I prefer this one to E for several different reasons. I prefer staying here for one simple reason. I actually feel closer with people here then I do other places. Also E doesn't have enough interesting activity for me. Most of it is regurgitated crud. Not saying that I do not see it here though.
     
  2. To the OP, what exactly are you looking for? This is a magic website which... sells magic! They have to make money, so naturally they are going to hype and advertise their latest products. Some will be great and you'll love. Some you'll end up disliking for one reason or another. I'm really not sure what you're looking for, but I'd suggest that you go visit a brick and mortar "real" magic shop. I'm not talking about a joke shop that sells fake dog poop and whoopie cushions; I mean a real magic shop with shelves lined with old books and working magicians that know the industry and the art form who will give you real advice. They're hard to come by anymore, but if you're close to MD, you should drop by the Denny and Lee Magic Studio (www.dennymagic.com). I think this might fill the hole of whatever you feel is missing from the websites you've been to.
     
  3. #23 nottingham, Apr 12, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2010
    I'm going to be honest. Like what was already said, T11 is a business. Just like when you go to work and do what you have to do to make money, they do the same. The only difference is that the are producing magic material for thousands. T11 doesn't have to do any half of what they do. They don't have to put 1on1 every week, produce cards, or make it so easy for us to talk to the artists. While on that point, just within the past month I've talked to JB, Mike Hankins, and Dan White. They don't have to go out of their way to talk to me, answer my questions, or give me information, but they did. Just like in the review section, I have a lot of material that I like to share because I get a lot of feedback on what I can do to improve the material. It's helped me many of times to replace 2 moves with one, what to take out, what to leave in, etc. They could easily take it down, but they don't because they know that it helps me with what I need (thanks guys). What Im pointing out here is that they do more than they should to help us improve. I have 100% respect for E, but nothing compares. If T11 just vanished tomorrow we would all realize what we had. This isn't to kiss T11's a**, but to simply point out the pros that we do realize anymore.
     
  4. what he said ^^
     
  5. personally, i have no problem with E, lots of great material, lots of good people. and theyre always doing some sort of competition to win stuff, and i have seldomly been disappointed by something i ordered there, with the exception of sick by sean fields, which is a decent effect but not practical at all, and mercury aces, which i only dislike because of some angle issues if people come up behind you,

    as for theory 11, i cant say anything about theyre products because i havent ordered any. but they have some verry helpful people on theyre forums, i posted something on this forum, and on E's forum, and the one on this forum started getting helpful responses really quickly, where as the one on E got like 140 views before i got one response, also j.bayme, the CEO of theory11, was the first person to respond to my thread on here, on E ive seen brad christians responses on stuff, but no where near as much as the CEO post on here

    so they way i see it, E has alot of good stuff out, havent been disappointed much, so i will continue to order from them, T11 has alot of nice helpful people on theyre forums, and those people say the products here are good, so i will order from here in the future, if its all crap, i wont order again, if its good, i will indeed order from here again
     
  6. Well T11 is more interactive with the community
     
  7. aT least for me, ive bought from and was a part of both ellusionist and theory11, and the difference i think is that theory11 just has better products. for example, ive bought many cards from ellusionist when i first started out in magic and to be honest, they are all crap cards (they just look cool). this is only my opinion, and the tricks seem to be overpriced and not that great. for example i recieved KAOS as a birthday present which i think was like $25 and it was something i could have easily figured out on my own, they just wanted to make it seem bigger and better. With theory11 i feel like everything they put out just has much more care and time put into it...they just have better products. and i like the people here better :D

    -max
     
  8. The artists on theory11 don't act like celebrities. They get on the forums, and TALK to us. The whole site just seems a little more, personal. I don't know how I explain it, just seems more like the artists converse with people more. I think this is becaus t11 is a "smaller" website than E. Anyways, just buy your tricks and perform. If you don't enjoy a forum, use a different one.
     
  9. I spend more time on the E forums than here (I frequent the coin magic forum here, because E doesn't have a specific one). There's less stupid threads like THIS on the E forums, as well.

    Scott.
     
  10. this is business, and business usually means one winner, and guess what, they're always the winner, ALWAYS. I don't blame them, this is just how business works, one tip, lower the fkin price.
     
  11. but honestly though,sometimes some people on here need to go outside and play something called a sport.
    Or interact with people face to face.
     
  12. Co-sign. Agreed, Absolutely
     
  13. I just realized, did ellusionist have a hand in putting together one of the most remarkable magic conventions? I think that is one reason why I like t11 :)
     
  14. Ha that's right. Theory11 had a HUGE hand in putting Magic-Con together. This shows a great effort in advancing the art. A convention is more than just getting people together to show magic. Even though I wasn't there, I've heard from people how inspiring it was and that they'll never perform magic the same.

    T11 is a great business as well.

    They put out worker effects, practical for everyday use.

    Digital Dissolve, Witness, Believe, Prophet. Just naming a few. I perform Stairway every time I go out now.

    I'm actually using the effects released. That is priceless. When you have effects you are going to use for the rest of your life...it's worth more than the price paid for.
     
  15. Thought I'd give my two cents. To call T11 the next E is both a true and false statement.

    First off I'll say how they are similar. They both work hard on their productions and hype the crap out of them. While for a long time I hated the fact that they did this, I would have never found magic as fun when I was a typical 15 year old Ellusionist junky. So for that reason alone, I have no right to criticize them. I must say though, I actually laugh out loud sometimes when I watch the trailers. Genesis is probably my favorite trailer put on the site, but I showed it to a layman friend, and he said he found it hilarious. (I mean actual laughing out loud hilarious.) I personally cracked up when I saw the close up of DG's face on the Symphony preview.:p It gives all their artists a major ego boost I'm sure. I wouldn't mind T11 doing a video of me looking badass just looking into the sky with awesome music in the background. I do find the hype funny nowadays, but I have no right to criticize it because it did make magic for me. Everything is about $$$$$$$$$$. T11 can deny that to death, but it's completely true.

    Now I'll say how they are different. First off, the community is a lot looser. When I say looser, I mean we don't delete a post because someone put a picture in it. (Yes, an actual rule on the E forums is that you cannot put a picture in your post.) Also, there are many great interviews on T11. I will say that something which annoys me, and has always annoyed me, is that the artists on this site seem to only post when they have a product coming out. Once their product has been out for a short while, they all of a sudden disappear into nothingness. It just shows the artists really don't care. In fact, a few of the artists which have actual releases with T11 bash T11 all the time. I won't mention names. Still, the interviews on this site are gold. The media section is a great tool for people to use to get feedback on their magic and cardistry. Also, Magic-Con is a GREAT conference. (I wish I could've gone.)

    So is T11 the same thing as E? I think for anyone to say no is in denial. But there is no question that what is on this site makes T11 just that much better than E. I feel like E has realized this too, and has taken steps to become more interactive (such as their blog, and I believe you can now post links to other websites in your posts on their forum). So yes, they are the same, but T11 I feel has the potential to have a way better online community than E could ever have.

    -Doug
     
  16. Doug -

    In sincerity, was very surprised to see your post above. Was a bit taken aback by it, as theory11 is not - in any way - "the same as Ellusionist." I was at Ellusionist for seven years. I resigned as President in 2007. I know very well what Ellusionist was and is. theory11 is not ellusionist.

    Before I go further, I will say that I'm very proud of the work I did while I was at Ellusionist, and I continue to respect their company and their team for continued success and evolution. But I'll break this down step by step.

    I'm not sure where you have ever read anyone from this team at any time claim for this site not to be a business. Please let me know where you got this impression - it has never happened. In fact, anyone who has read my previous post in this same thread would see a quote from me saying the following. I stand by it: "Unapologetically, this is a business. The livelihood of our company, artists, and staff members depend wholeheartedly upon sale of our products. We produce products we believe in, and our production pipeline is second to none. Do other sites have more products available? Absolutely - but they don't produce them all in house. We do."

    I'm not quite sure how this is unexpected. Musicians do interviews when they're promoting a new album. Angelina Jolie goes on talk shows before a new movie comes up. Promoting a product is only natural, and when new products come out, the community naturally has questions about it. The artist comes on and answers them - questions resolved. That said - and this is an important point - to imply that artists only post when products are released would be a gross misstatement of facts. In the past 2 weeks alone, there have been posts in this forum from Marcus Eddie, Tony Chang, Jason England, Dan White, Mike Hankins, Alex Pandrea, Andrei Jikh, and myself. I'm sure I'm missing some - those are just the ones I remembered off the top of my head. We've also posted 11 artist diaries in the past 60 days. Some of those are humorous, some are serious - but they provide a depth and intimacy with these artists that is not found anywhere else. It's a true statement that you'll hear MORE from an artist around the time of a product release - but I believe that is only natural given that this is a business and their livelihood depends on it.

    I stand by the reputation of this site 100%. This is a team physically composed of some of the most respected names in this industry - from Chris Kenner to Jason England to Dan White. I talk to the vast majority of our artists every single week, sometimes daily. No other site has produced as much original content as we have with as many respected artists in such a short amount of time. I think that speaks for itself.

    We see Magic-Con as way more than just another magic conference. We approached it as a way for us to stand behind our mission statement and pro-actively advance this artform in a way that has never been done. We put together a line-up of the best magic performers, creators, and intellects ever assembled in one place in the past decade. And the result was unbelievable. Juan Tamariz flew halfway around the world to be a part of it. David Blaine flew across the country to witness it. No other site has done anything that remotely compares.

    I think for anyone to say yes is misinformed - or lacking recognition of what this site is about, who is behind it, what we have accomplished, and where we're headed. I am absolutely okay with people underestimating us - it heightens our resolve to improve. But I'm not okay with people not realizing the fruits of our labors - and what we do differently every day, every week, every moment to continue.
     
  17. Surprised at your post too Doug... I guess you didn't read all of those posts in this thread yet.



    -----

    I dare anyone out there to try to start a magic website that can make as significant of an influence within the magic community as JB has done with Theory11. I personally have completely accelerated my passion with magic because of this website, the media section, and the forums. I've been around E for years too like many of you have, and I am grateful for everything Brad and his team has done as well. With that said, T11 has had a greater impact on me than any other magic/cardistry related website (by far).

    I run several websites myself, one of which is a forum with many active members. The amount of work, time, and energy that goes into doing such a thing is phenomenally underestimated by laymen, and you cannot understand it unless you have done it yourself. People rely on the leader, criticize the leader, and naively think that they could do it better. I am just talking about this from a webmaster's perspective -- think about the productions, the communications, the relationships, and everything else that goes into this.

    Theory11 is a business, and JB puts 150% heart into everything related to it (couldn't be more obvious & transparent). If you can't see that, then you are not looking at everything. He was the president of Ellusionist, and stepped down because of the fundamental ways that the company was run. Theory11 is basically a website with similar functions, but with a completely different philosophy and set of goals. Do any of you understand how much work goes into starting a business? You don't just buy a domain and install wordpress. It takes months (or years) of planning, development, etc.

    Call me an @ss kisser if you'd like, but I stand behind my defenses wholeheartedly. This is a fantastic website with unmatched products. The free content on this website could easily be turned into something that only members with a paid subscription get access to.

    Either way, as I believe I said before, no one website owns any of us. We are all independent people who choose to visit certain places in our free time. We all have our own tastes and interests, but people... think about how much magic would suck if Theory11 went offline. I wouldn't quit or anything nonsensical like that, but I would feel pretty disconnected from the global magic community.

    @JB - Oh well... haha. At least you know some of us get it. With time the differences you and the T11 crew started with will become more and more obvious. ;)

    </rant>
     
  18. Okay I guess T11 is the same as ellusionist. Can't wait to go to the ellusionist convention staring Brad Christian as the guest of honor, I also heard Magicdude will be there and Mr. Castle as well. Can't wait to fork over money for a deck of cards that will clump like dry oats later on.

    Honestly all kidding aside, I feel Ellusionist is more about the money and pushing their products that they sell only on their site. But honestly who isn't all about the money to an extent? All companies need money to stay afloat. However I sincerely feel that T11 and other sites have shown that they don't only care about selling things but they care about the magic community as a whole. E is merely taking steps to follow by example.
     
  19. JB, in no way did I mean to offend you. I thought by making my post above I was actually defending T11 by saying it has a better community. Instead of taking it as I meant it to be, you chose to dissect it, and criticize it. If you would rather play that game, I'll be happy to do so.


    I first should apologize for that one line. I was a little surprised after reading that myself.

    By listing artists here that do in fact post, it seems you're almost challenging me to post the names of artists that don't post and do bash T11 in private. I'm not willing to do that, so I won't go there.

    I get angry when the artists post when the have their products coming out, and then disappear into the shadows between a month or two after it is released. Gives a false impression that they care about the community. Heck, one artist said "T11 is my home" in a PM to me. He hasn't been on in probably in over a year now. (Too lazy to check. The last time I checked though a long while back, it was over half a year since he last logged on.)

    Again, do I really need to start naming artists? I won't. Also, I'm not denying you're releasing great and original material. Can you please point to the part of my post which I made that accusation?

    And as I said in my last post, it was a great conference. I'm sure it was absolutely amazing. My apologies for not expanding on WHY it was such a great conference. When giving a compliment, I'll be sure to elaborate more so the person I'm complimenting is not offended.

    Not realizing the fruits of your labors? JB, I met you in person, and you were half asleep when I met you. I think I can tell you're working hard every day of the week. I can't imagine because I don't know how much work there is involved between the website, the equipment, the editing, the filming, the marketing, etc etc etc..... And I bet each one of those things is deeper than we can imagine. I'm sure there there are many other things to list too. For you to say I don't realize the fruits of your labors is YOU being misinformed.

    To the users though, please tell me how E is different than T11 other than what I stated in my previous post. I said how great this community is. I said how awesome the media section is. I said how great the interviews are. I also said that Magic-Con was a great conference (which I'm sure it was)! Now please tell me how E is different than T11 in the ways I said, and I will stand corrected.

    You guys work hard on your productions, market them with the hype, and then release them for consumption. Now please JB, explain to me what makes T11 different than E in other ways? If I am misinformed, I would like to be correctly informed. Thanks.

    -Doug
     
  20. I just wanted to blurb in about Magic-Con.

    Just so no one here forgets, big congrats & shoutout goes to Dan and Dave & Syd Segal for their work setting up Magic-Con.
     
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