YouTube Destroying Magic?

Youtube, and youtube-like sites are: (you can select both options)

  • Helping magic

    Votes: 29 35.4%
  • Hurting magic

    Votes: 73 89.0%

  • Total voters
    82
Jan 27, 2008
202
0
Personally I like to figure out the method, but that's just how I operate. I've always been fascinated with the way things work, and magic is no exception. Are you really expecting people to actively refuse to think about how an effect is achievable?

Curiosity is a valid excuse now?

Of course they're going to be thinking about the method. It's called the Magician's Eye! Or whatever.... But if you have to go to YouTube to figure out the method..............

...:Z:..
 
Dec 14, 2007
823
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Tyler,

I was responding to people who asked what we could do about the situation. Now, if you happened to think I was talking to/accusing you of those things - well, "me thinks thou dost protest too much."

There are only two things I specifically reference about your statement:

1) Your sense of entitlement to know the methods of magic effects without paying for them
2) your rationalization of these den of thieves as an "online magic community"

The rest was what you choose to read into it. (They are however real issues that have lead to the position we have today, and without addressing them, nothing will change.)

As to your rarefied position in our art - being friend's with Miller and knowing about a little trick that's yet to come to market - I wish you happiness in the goldfish bowl. Perhaps someday you will come visit us in the sea.

Brad Henderson
 
Oct 24, 2007
317
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Isn't figuring out the trick unethical? Isn't putting effort into discovering the actual method unethical especially for magicians?

Isn't putting something that's impractical, hyping it up, and deceiving other magicians (hard working people), out of their money unethical? Yet lots of magic websites do it everyday.

Artists aren't going to respect you back when you use your method of purchasing magic.

Okay, great. I don't respect artists that sell junk either. Artists that use camera tricks, hype things up, or use a million gimmicks that aren't pratical.

The METHOD is the whole SECRET of the effect which you PURCHASE if you like the EFFECT, not the METHOD. You trying to figure out the secretmand THEN deciding whether you want to buy it.... Well, if everyone did that, we'd have a lot less customers (I would think).

Yes, we'd have a lot less customers buying useless junk. Face it, if you like the look of an effect, you still don't know what you're getting into if you buy it. Then you get it and it sucks! You've just wasted $30 (which is a lot for me considering I'm saving for college), and you can't get it back. Let me rephrase one of my statements, BECAUSE I RESPECT GOOD WORK FROM ARTISTS, THEN I BUY IT.

Yah, I talked to Justin, too. For like, 2 hours ar o' Dark hundred in the morning. He's a cool guy. He even taught me a few things about coins.

Well, great. But he didn't tell you he thought your magic was "genius".

If you agree it's so unethical, like you said, then why are you using your purchasing-method? Seems a bit hypocritical, don't ya' think?

I don't get where it's hypocritical. They are making money off of selling other artists effects. I'm paying artists who's work I like and want to use.

I agree, we need gatekeepers like we used to have.

Well, at least we agree on something.

HAHAHAH. That's really funny because earlier you said this:
I am part of a so called "exposure website".

Notice the words "so called". That's what you call it, not me. Also, the online community of magicians that I am a part of is guarded well.

highly skilled members(?).Why would highly skilled members be using your method for purchasing magic tricks?

They are highly skilled because instead of buying a bunch of crap, they've bought good, quality material and have had enough money to buy lots more.

I have yet to see a highly skilled member do THAT.

Guess you haven't seen many highly skilled members then.

Oh great.... That's reassuring....

Great reply. *sarcasm*

Ummm, Tylor, WHY are you trying to figure out the method? Because the like the effect soooo much. That's why. So, isn't that a good trick if your being driven to research the method?

Ummm...maybe because somethings look better on camera than in real life and I'm not a cam magician. Maybe somethings use tons of gimmicks and looks cool, but you don't know it. Maybe something has horrible angles and can't be used in public, but you don't know it. Prime example, the Snap Change. It's an awesome looking change on camera, but in person the angles are horrible. Can still pull it off, but horrible angles.

I think there's a reason why you forgot.

Hahaha, we have a funny man. (lol)

Don't you have conventions with magicians? No. Don't you have a magician buddy who you practice with? Yes. Don't you show each other things? Rarerly. How is that any different? I KNOW who I'm "jamming" with.

Yep, and on the forum I'm a part of, we have webcam conferences, so I KNOW who I'm "jamming" with too. We just live farther away from each other than you and your "magic buddies".

It's okay to talk about secret-magician-things from one magician to another, but it's not okay to just blatantly reveal information to other strangers (who are You(N)oobs).

Reference my last paragraph. Also, calling me a noob is hardly mature. Come on, what are you? Ten? You know nothing about me or my magic.

Tyler
 
Oct 24, 2007
317
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I was responding to people who asked what we could do about the situation. Now, if you happened to think I was talking to/accusing you of those things - well, "me thinks thou dost protest too much."

I'm sorry I thought you were responding to me. Although you did begin with the words, "Tyler sums it up.", which would mean I sum up everything you said. Also, I didn't ever protest. I just discussed. "Me thinks you not think enough."

The rest was what you choose to read into it. (They are however real issues that have lead to the position we have today, and without addressing them, nothing will change.)

Well, there's what you said, what you meant, and what I thought you meant. But, I brought up the issues and still, you haven't responded.

As to your rarefied position in our art - being friend's with Miller and knowing about a little trick that's yet to come to market - I wish you happiness in the goldfish bowl. Perhaps someday you will come visit us in the sea.

I never said my position is rarefied, you're reading into it. And, your comment was preposterous. FIRST, you don't know me. SECOND, you haven't seen my magic. And THIRD, I wish you the best in your magic although I find your sarcasm and "hidden" jabs immature.

I will no longer be replying to this thread, as people cannot have a discussion without personal attacks. Instead of discussing something like adults, discussion was handled differently. Good-bye, good night, and peace.

Tyler
 
Dec 14, 2007
823
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Your sense of entitlement sums up the problem we face today.

That sense manifests in many other ways - ways I enumerated. (I did not mean to imply that you engaged in those practices - and I am sorry if you took it that way. However I DO believe these practices stem from the same attitude which you typify.)

Finally, when you decided to pat yourself on the back in regard to your "inside track" you opened that up for discussion. It was not a jab, only a reminder that the world is sometimes a lot bigger than we think it is.

Best,

Brad Henderson
 
Dec 14, 2007
823
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No flaming.

These are important issues and Tyler's attitude is shared by many people - and this attitude has led to the situation we find ourselves in today. What I hope to accomplish is let people know how this attitude (and how it manifests) affects the creators and in turn affects them. While Tyler may feel he is on an inside loop, I think it is important for him to realize that the world of magic looks different depending on where you are standing. Standing next to Justin Miller provides one view. I assure you, there are others.

Should he be happy with his attitude and his view (which he seemed to imply was a perfectly fine final destination), then there is nothing further to consider. But for those who would like to consider the big picture, for those who know that there is far more to the world of magic than that sold in tidy bundles and hawked at lectures, then hopefully my words will give them some avenues to explore.

Brad Henderson
 
Oct 24, 2007
317
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I don’t know why, but as each year passes there seems to be a more mean-spirited attitude within the magic community.

MAGIC magazine has a brand new reviewer by the name of Brad Henderson. In his debut review, he puts forth a review that oozes the most mean-spiritedness achievable. The review was brutal towards Kenton Knepper first and foremost, as well as his booklet “Miraculous Ploys”.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion. And clearly, he didn’t like the booklet. However, he takes up two pages in MAGIC to both slam and piss on Kenton.

Before we go further, let me state that I have NOT read Kenton’s booklet. You don’t need to, to clearly see the malicious attack on Mr. Knepper.

A colleague on the west coast brought the review to my attention. My colleague actually doesn’t like Kenton’s works. Strangely, he was appalled by the review and sent it along to me via fax and wondered if I knew whom this Brad Henderson (expletive) was.

I must confess, when I first read it I was utterly shocked. SHOCKED. I could not believe how overwhelmingly nasty the review clearly was.

Upon second reading, I laughed. Let me explain.

Mr. Henderson starts off with a disclaimer that the review “is not based on personal feelings. I have met Kenton, and I thought he was a pleasant human being. Unfortunately, I found this work offensive for several reasons”.

Mr. Henderson then begins a paragraph-by-paragraph attack on the book, it’s writer, his thoughts, his routines and calls him a liar.

Sidebar:You know what would be fun? At the next big magician convention put Mr. Knepper and Mr. Henderson on a platform face-to-face and have Mr. Henderson read that review out loud. Charge admission for it and use the funds for a cosmetic dental surgeon’s costs to fix Mr. Henderson’s teeth at the end.

Mr. Henderson portrays himself (indirectly) as an expert on Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) and discounts Mr. Kneppers work with the earth-shattering revelation that the “concepts were not original to him”. Wow. Thanks for that one.

Mr. Henderson further betrays his lack of knowledge with this (hilarious) incorrect comparison: “Wonder Words is to NLP what Dave Dee is to Jay Abraham and other marketing programs.”

That was killer. I laughed out loud at that one. You see, Dave Dee has chosen to idolize and model marketing guru Dan Kennedy. While I’m confident that Mr. Dee IS familiar with Jay Abraham, using that particular analogy betrays his “knowledge” of what he’s talking about. Anyone—and I mean ANYONE—with a remote knowledge of marketing would see that clearly.

Without going back and listening to Mr. Kneppers Wonder Words tapes, I do recall him crediting NLP as well as the use of the term “linguistic deception.” Mr. Henderson puts down Mr. Knepper on the one hand yet credits him for bringing “this material” available to the community.

I do agree with Mr. Henderson that Mr. Knepper is claiming credit for bringing it into our magical community. And I do agree that he’s using established techniques. No question about it.

Although I have not seen Mr. Henderson perform, he is allegedly a skilled close-up magician and I’m willing to bet that he uses established methods to accomplish his tasks. I’m sure that if he has invented any new “moves”, they could also be traced historically prior to his creation.

Mr. Henderson claims Mr. Knepper is not a pioneer, yet Mr. Knepper was the first to bring this stuff to our community. First. And first would be… pioneering?

The “review” is littered with insults such as…

“…one of the most manipulative little pamphlets I have ever read.”

“… every other word is I..”

“…Good God, shoot me now.”

“…Nothing new. Just an overly scripted presentation.”

…and more.

I won’t detail the blow-by-blow insults that Mr. Henderson throws at Mr. Knepper. You can read them yourself. He rips apart basically every trick in the booklet (with a lovely backhanded insult in one form or another)

What’s my point? Easy.

This attack on Mr. Knepper is uncalled for. Indeed, I’m disappointed that the editors of MAGIC published that and I believe it tarnishes the excellent image of the magazine. If they paid him for it, they should get a refund.

If Mr. Henderson doesn’t like the booklet, fine. Quite frankly, I find that far too many reviews these days are over-hyped and over-positive. A negative review is fine. But not one littered with insults and degrading comments.

Clearly, Mr. Henderson’s biases spill over the cup, over the counter and into your lap. He has an axe to grind. And grind it he does.

This is pure speculation on my part, but I have noticed when Mr. Henderson is critiqued in any way, he immediately goes on an extreme defensive.

A simple stroll through the mental-list forum for “mindman” posts will reveal a consistent condescending attitude by Mr. Henderson. Other forums reveal the same.

Generally speaking, this attitude is prevalent in people who have inferiority complexes. People who need to put others down in order to look good. It’s sad. Very sad.

Let me wrap up this commentary by answering a few questions you may have in your mind.

1. I don’t know Mr. Knepper, have never spoken with him and I didn’t find anything in Wonder Words that I was able to use. This isn’t about Mr. Knepper or his book. It’s about negative attitude reviewers.
2. I don’t know Mr. Henderson, other than his prolific postings on various forums, including mine.
3. Mr. Henderson claims that he has received positive responses from his first review. Truthfully, I have not seen any. I have, however, spoken with quite a few who feel the same as I do.

I hope that someday there will be a return of balanced reviews that focus on the matter at hand. And, I hope that MAGIC fires Mr. Henderson and hires someone knowledgeable.
Taken From Mental-list.com by Stuart Cumberland

Wanted to see who you were to say your in the "sea" of magic. Real respect you have for magicians there pal. Now I see where the undertones of sarcasm come from, if that article is about you. If it isn't, I apologize. Peace!

Tyler
 
Dec 14, 2007
823
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I will no longer be replying to this thread, as people cannot have a discussion without personal attacks. Instead of discussing something like adults, discussion was handled differently. Good-bye, good night, and peace.

Tyler

Promises, promises.

Yes, Stuart was very upset that I denigrated one of his marketing heroes, Dan Kennedy. While he is fully entitled to his opinion of me, and of my opinions, but someone misrepresents what another wrote - that is the refuge of the very sad.

I am that Brad Henderson. I have been reviewing for Magic Magazine since Michael Close left. Kenton's review is hardly the most cutting I have written. You should check out my reviews of Dan Army's Trespass, and most recently, the feature story on Phenomenon as carried by Genii Magazine.

The book Blair Robertson refers to was awful. I stand by every single word I have written, and should you some day decide to read that book, we can share a lively debate over it's contents.

But Tyler, it seems to me that of anyone YOU should be PRAISING ME. You say that you don't have money to waste on bad products. You say you go to exposure sites to protect yourself from throwing cash away....Well, I did a very thorough job in that review of telling you why each of those tricks were bad. I covered the tactics used by Knepper to try and convince people that these half developed ideas were works of art. I provided the service you claim you go to the exposure sites for - without exposing anything!!!

I thought that was what you wanted, Tyler?

Or is it just the secrets?

Brad Henderson
 
Nov 30, 2007
835
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Personally I think that it is kind of helping and hurting magic. I think that it is helping because think of all the kids that get interested in magic because they learned a trick online. I also think that it is hurting magic because think of the times that people know your tricks because they learned it on YouTube. I think that this is really a preference of if you want to spread magic to more people (like more people learning it) or people to stop doing magic and not have that many people.
 
Jan 27, 2008
202
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Isn't putting something that's impractical, hyping it up, and deceiving other magicians (hard working people), out of their money unethical? Yet lots of magic websites do it everyday.

Wow, then your apperently searching in the wrong places.

I trust sites like T11, E (well, idk about that one), Penguin, Lybrary, etc, for good quality magic. You must've been lurking in those other half-baked sites.

Okay, great. I don't respect artists that sell junk either. Artists that use camera tricks, hype things up, or use a million gimmicks that aren't pratical.

You buying stuff from Criss Angel? That'll happen.

Yes, we'd have a lot less customers buying useless junk. Face it, if you like the look of an effect, you still don't know what you're getting into if you buy it. Then you get it and it sucks! You've just wasted $30 (which is a lot for me considering I'm saving for college), and you can't get it back. Let me rephrase one of my statements, BECAUSE I RESPECT GOOD WORK FROM ARTISTS, THEN I BUY IT.

It all comes down to the EFFECT, not the method. If you like the EFFECT and if your happy with the REVIEWS of the other BUYERS, than why not purchase it?

It sounds like your being really picky with what you want and I guess that's understandable to a certain extent. But seriosuly, why not read the reviews and do some research?

Well, great. But he didn't tell you he thought your magic was "genius".

I like it how you just "assumed" that he didn't say my magic was "genius."

Actually, I didn't show him any magic. It was my microphone and his webcam. He DID actually shoe me some of the effects he's considering releasing. Did you?

You obviosuly didn't explain to Justin your purchasing method so...


Notice the words "so called". That's what you call it, not me. Also, the online community of magicians that I am a part of is guarded well.

Guarded well against the real magicians, you mean :p

They are highly skilled because instead of buying a bunch of crap, they've bought good, quality material and have had enough money to buy lots more.

You think that one trick is better than the other? Wow... Ever heard of the expression?:

"There are no bad tricks, just bad performers (or magicians."

Guess you haven't seen many highly skilled members then.

All the highly skilled members I've seen don't use your method of purchasing magic products.

Ummm...maybe because somethings look better on camera than in real life and I'm not a cam magician. Maybe somethings use tons of gimmicks and looks cool, but you don't know it. Maybe something has horrible angles and can't be used in public, but you don't know it. Prime example, the Snap Change. It's an awesome looking change on camera, but in person the angles are horrible. Can still pull it off, but horrible angles.

We have a community of magicians that would love to answer any pre-purchase questions you have.

But that Snap Change WAS a very good example.

Alright, if someone sells the Snap Change and they don't tell you that the angle sucks, then, personally, I don't find it unethical to look up the effect as the seller is lying. That I agree with.

But the thing is, not many magic sites are like that. Well, maybe the half-baked ones are (which I think there's a lot of those) but why shop there? Why not shop at somewhere reliable?

Yep, and on the forum I'm a part of, we have webcam conferences, so I KNOW who I'm "jamming" with too. We just live farther away from each other than you and your "magic buddies".

That's good. I guess it's okay to share with friends you know.

Reference my last paragraph. Also, calling me a noob is hardly mature. Come on, what are you? Ten? You know nothing about me or my magic.

Actually, I wasn't calling you a noob. Pay attention to the spelling:

YouTube

YouNoob

A You(N)oob is a person who reveals effects or posts half-ass performances.

So, I was refering to a general you. Not YOU specifically.

Sorry for the misintepratation.

Tyler

..:Z:..z Comments in Cyan
 
Oct 24, 2007
317
0
Promises, promises.

Sorry, once finding that article, I had to post it asking if it was you.

Yes, Stuart was very upset that I denigrated one of his marketing heroes, Dan Kennedy. While he is fully entitled to his opinion of me, and of my opinions, but someone misrepresents what another wrote - that is the refuge of the very sad.

Yes, he is entitled to his opinion, and I am to mine. I find it right to go over someones magic and give your opinion. But personal attacks are to far.

I am that Brad Henderson. I have been reviewing for Magic Magazine since Michael Close left. Kenton's review is hardly the most cutting I have written. You should check out my reviews of Dan Army's Trespass, and most recently, the feature story on Phenomenon as carried by Genii Magazine.

That's very cool, congratulations on being able to write about magic, something you love. (Note: Not being sarcastic. I'm truly congratulating you.)

But Tyler, it seems to me that of anyone YOU should be PRAISING ME. You say that you don't have money to waste on bad products. You say you go to exposure sites to protect yourself from throwing cash away....Well, I did a very thorough job in that review of telling you why each of those tricks were bad. I covered the tactics used by Knepper to try and convince people that these half developed ideas were works of art. I provided the service you claim you go to the exposure sites for - without exposing anything!!!

I thought that was what you wanted, Tyler?

Or is it just the secrets?

Well, ones mans trash is another mans treasure. Something you might think sucks, might be really good to me. I trust myself.

Just to be truthful with everyone here. I AM NO LONGER, AND HAVEN'T BEEN FOR SEVERAL MONTHS, POSTING ON THE EXPOSURE SITE OR VIEWING IT. I've become a part of this forum, and the Dan & Dave forums. But, I have made friends through the online magic communities, and still discuss magic over IMs to this day. I am still a member at the online magic communities though. Which is what I meant when I said, "I'm part of an online magic community." Peace!

Tyler
 
Oct 24, 2007
317
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Wow, then your apperently searching in the wrong places.

I used to, until the online magic community came along.

You buying stuff from Criss Angel? That'll happen.

LOL I hate Criss Angel and anything he would sell would suck.

It all comes down to the EFFECT, not the method. If you like the EFFECT and if your happy with the REVIEWS of the other BUYERS, than why not purchase it? It sounds like your being really picky with what you want and I guess that's understandable to a certain extent. But seriosuly, why not read the reviews and do some research?

I'm gonna switch this around. Another mans treasure is another mans trash.

I like it how you just "assumed" that he didn't say my magic was "genius." Actually, I didn't show him any magic. It was my microphone and his webcam. He DID actually shoe me some of the effects he's considering releasing. Did you?

Actually, yes I showed him my magic. He thought it was "genius" and that I should sell it because lots of people would buy it.

You think that one trick is better than the other? Wow... Ever heard of the expression?: "There are no bad tricks, just bad performers (or magicians."

Yes, I've heard that expression. But it applies to actual tricks. Some tricks masquerade as tricks and can't be used at all. Tricks that wouldn't even fool a new born baby. (lol)

We have a community of magicians that would love to answer any pre-purchase questions you have.But the thing is, not many magic sites are like that. Well, maybe the half-baked ones are (which I think there's a lot of those) but why shop there? Why not shop at somewhere reliable?

Well, another mans treasure is another mans trash. Half-baked. (lol) I'm watching Dave Chappelle right now. But, I do shop somewhere reliable now.

Actually, I wasn't calling you a noob. Pay attention to the spelling: A You(N)oob is a person who reveals effects or posts half-ass performances. So, I was refering to a general you. Not YOU specifically. Sorry for the misintepratation.

Sorry, miss read that. And sorry for asking if you were ten. It's been a tough day. (lol) So, sorry.

Peace!

Tyler
 
Sep 1, 2007
279
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I talked about this with Greg Wilson a couple weeks ago. He had decieded that he would only put out effects that include some kind of gimmick, so that if someone was to expose the trick in youtube or to pirate the instructions they still couldn't do the trick without buying it. It's a shame he had to do this because he is one of the many people who could be releasing some pretty awesome impromptu stuff, too.

Luckily there is a pretty secure way of releasing material: books. Half of the people don't seem to have the patience to read and appearantly performing a trick without first actually seeing it appears completely impossible. When you watch an explanation from a DVD you also get to see how to perform the trick. All that is left for you to do is to mimic the actions and memorize the patter. When you learn from a book you will actually feel like you're doing something when you have to make decisions and solve problems to make the trick suit you.

People who truly love magic read books. People who don't care about magic only watch DVDs. How much stuff from books you see performed badly in YouTube?
 
Nov 23, 2007
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Mr. Henderson's rebuttal is factually and categorically untrue.

Stuart Cumberland
You bumped a threat that was and should have stayed dead from a year ago to rebut a rebuttal. Nice.

Nobody cared then and nobody cares now that you felt Brad attached Knepper. Let the man speak for himself.
 
Nov 23, 2007
623
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I'm guessing new members who want to increase their post count. Because post count is so important.
It was his first post. He just wanted to be a knucklehead and save face. Nevermind the fact that nobody actually remembered or cared about this small spat from a year ago.
 
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