Hi! I'm _________

Oct 24, 2008
244
0
Savannah, GA
Part 1.

Hi. I'm a new magician, just starting out with no idea where to go. I really like watching Criss Angel on TV, and my friends and I talk about it. I've seen David Blaine, too, and even went to go see a magician perform during a vacation my family took. It all seems pretty cool, and I think I could really have some fun with it - but everywhere I look online, people seem to hate Criss and only talk about how he uses camera tricks, and then they talk about how Blaine doesn't do magic anymore and is just obsessed with stunts (I think they're a little weird, too!), and how this one online magic store is overpriced and for losers, and how magic is going downhill and I see several different forum threads debating whether magic is art or not. I don't know. Then when I see about learning magic, maybe buying some tricks, everything is very overpriced! When I read reviews, a lot of people are saying a trick I like is bad because it uses a "gimmick" or it isn't "impromptu", or whatever.

I really just wanted to learn a few tricks for fun, but I can't find a source anywhere that wants to help me do that. All I find are overpriced DVDs with tricks I don't want to do, and communities full of people dragging magic through the mud. I did find, on youtube, some tutorials for some cool tricks, but I don't really understand what they're telling me to do, and if I do get it, it never looks as good as when I see a professional do it.

Maybe this wasn't such a good idea after all. I think I'll just stick with watching TV.

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Hi. Those magic forums you go to all the time, I post there. In all of them. I talk about the same topics over and over that have been beaten to death a thousand times - you know, all the classics: "Is magic art?", "Who's better: Blaine or Angel?", "Can I make money doing street magic?" I have never written an intelligent post, because I'm pretty much giving a poorly thought out opinion based off the regurgitated concepts and notions of people who type a lot better than I do. There's hundreds like me, and we're all part of a collective machine that prevents original ideas or notions of thought, unique experimentation, or philosophical ideas in the area of magic from coming to the forefront. it's true, I COULD post an interesting, unique idea or point of debate and breathe some fresh life into the magic community, but instead I'm going to talk about the same thing I just read in a different forum, except only half as potently.

No one ever tries to steer me in the right direction anyway, I must be doing something right, right?

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Hi. I'm 16 years old and my only experience with magic is popular card tricks and a little bit of flourishing. My signature routines are an ACR, TiVO Transpo 2.0, Angle Zero, and the 2 Card Monte. I practice my classic pass fifty times a day, and I buy every custom deck I come across. I won't perform that Joel Paschall trick BeLieVe, beacuse I have to rip up a card, and no way am I going to damage my custom decks! (And I refuse to use regular bikes, so THAT'S out of the question).

Everytime someone's talking about a trick that wasn't made by Daniel Madison or doesn't involve a deck of cards, I always say "It looks neat, but it's not my style." I've never known the beauty of a good Three Fly routine, the power of a perfect center tear, or the look on a spectator's face when I use a fancy ring flight effect. It's not that I'm into magic, with just a specialty and penchant for cards - it's that I will never, ever venture out of my comfort zone, and my spectators will think that magic can only be done with cards.

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Hi. I haven't spent a dime on magic - I download all of my videos with bittorrent (well, Azureus to be specific) - so I have this massive collection of books and DVDs, some of which I haven't even watched and never plan on. It's how I learn things - I'm smart enough to know that Youtube tutorials are utter garbage and that I should learn from the real deal, but I don't have the money (or don't want to spend it) to support the creators of the magic tricks I love. And who could blame me - have you seen the prices these days? Most of these tricks are awful, and upon seeing them, I glad I didn't pay for them.

Of course, I'll never admit to pirating anything. I stand right beside my fellow anonymous posters and say it's wrong! It's bad for ethics! But I do it anyway. Maybe I'll say, "Yeah, I USED to do that, but not anymore," but even as I type that, I'm downloading the newest releases.

Ethics aren't a concern to me, prices are. I love magic, but I just cannot afford it. And I need more tricks. More, more, and more.

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Hi there. You've seen me online debating the legitimacy of magic as art. Probably, you've seen this same discussion a thousand times over, with the exact same posts and points of view expressed. It's something I've come to terms with - magicians like to think as a collective, and few have the courage to express something that others might disagree with. I see most of my fellow magicians saying, Yes I am an artist!, but without the material to back it up. Some of them have been doing the same tricks for years, some have never tried to create or change an effect, and some just like being able to call themselves an artist because it's a cool title to have.

I try very hard to evoke emotions with my performance. I spend weeks on patter, flow, and execution in order to actually make my performance MEAN SOMETHING. I save the simple tricks for when I'm entertaining, but I bring out the big guns when I want to make an artistic statement. See, I genuinely want to use magic as a medium to express an artistic point of view. I want to be a painter or musician, except with magic instead of acryllics or guitars. Mostly, it's unexplored territory, and anyone breaking into it couldn't NOT be a pioneer. To me, it's just not magic unless someone smiles, stares astonished, cries, laughs uncontrollably, freaks out and runs away, or just begs me to show them more. To me, it's just not magic unless it is beautiful, and my audience also finds it beautiful.

But alas, there's no support for me in the community. I'm told I have to be an enertainer, first and foremost. If I'm not out there entertaining, I don't get to be artsy. It's weird - my favorite bands make music for themselves first, to express something, and thankfully they just happen to be entertaining. They don't play music to make other people happy, they do it to make a statement. My favorite actors are the same way - they don't make a movie so you'll like it, they make a movie because it has a moving story and deep characterization.

That's what I want, but all those other magicians claiming to be "artists" aren't getting it. They're all performing the same material with cheesy patter and coming off like a vegas showman. That's not what I want.

If I happen to entertain you, great! I really am happy. But that's not my goal. I'm a real artist. I genuinely want to make art.


(continued...)
 
Oct 24, 2008
244
0
Savannah, GA
Part 2.

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Hi. Have you seen my videos on youtube? That's the only place I perform for, except for my parents every now and then. But you're not missing out - if you saw me perform live, you'd get bored to tears. 99% of my tricks are performed in complete silence except for bad music edited in that doesn't fit the piece. If I do talk, I stumble and halt and don't know how to honeslty present myself. There's no presentation here, only bad mechanics and poor technical execution. I don't have the confidence to show off my craft in the real world, so instead I'll build my self-esteem by reading all the comments saying "Thank you!" when I reveal a trick.

Please rate and comment.

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Hey. Me, I don't practice. I sit on material but say it's not enough, or that I don't have what I need, and that if I only had 35 bucks to buy this one trick, my routine would be complete! But I've still got a backlog of material I haven't even touched except for watching the video for it. I'm a few hundred in the hole, I've got cards and a few half dollars littered over my computer desk, and my favorite magic sites have my credit card information already filled in so I can just purchase the next big thing.

Imagine your junk drawer, all the effects you never touch. With me, ALL my effects are in the junk drawer, because I'm lazy and have no confidence in myself.

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Hi. I refuse to perform a trick if it requires a gimmick. Why? Because it's all about sleight of hand with me! Yeah, I call myself a purist, but that's only because I like labels. I like this trend of putting down gimmicked effects and pretending my sleight of hand is awesome, when really I'm not even average! It'd be one thing if I had AMAZING sleight of hand and just tried to tackle a gimmicked effect from an impromptu point of view - that'd be great! - but instead I'll marvel at how cool something looks and HAVE to have it, but once I learn a gimmick is involved, I just shrug and forget all about it.

It really doesn't help that we as a community can't even agree on what "impromptu" actually is.

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Hey. I'm up to date on magic, I've got a solid, working routine, I've read Strong Magic and Absolute Effect, even Maximum Entertainment, I've got all these theories and ideas bubbling around in my head, and I know where magic should be going right now.

So why is it everytime I pick up a deck of cards, I can only think about how I absolutely hate magic and every other magician I've ever met?

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Hi. I'm your spectator, the people in school you perform for or the strangers on the street you approach. I don't know anything about magic, but I'm up for seeing something cool. All that theory and practice and scripting you do in private means nothing to me - show me something or go away. Entertain me or leave. I want to have fun, I want to feel like a kid again. I want to see a performance, not a puzzle.

I don't want any part of your internet magic community drama. I don't care who Dai Vernon is, Your cards don't look cool to me. No, I'm not astounded by your coin in bottle effect, but I do think it's neat. Can you do something else for me? Can I shuffle the cards? Can you use my ring? Can you make my friend dissapear? (Haha! I bet you've never heard that before!). How long did it take you to learn this? Can you turn my one dollar bill into a hundred? Can you levitate?

Can you read my mind?

Obviously not, or else you would know that all your hard work and thought and application has pleased you and you alone. You'd realize you never thought about it from my point of view, and because of that, I'm amazed but not entertained. Excited but not astonished. Watching but not interested.

Why is it that, in your line of work, in a field of study that involves presenting a secret method to the uninitiated, a deceptive body of work to random strangers, why is that when it's your job to convince me that what you do is real, why is it that you never thought ONCE about what I would think or what I would like to see? Why don't you ever debate the finer points of spectator point of view and audience fun, instead of misdirection and crowd management?

Why do you work so hard to gratify your own ego, but never worry about what magic is really about?

Do you even care that you could have brightened my day, could have turned me on to magic for the rest of my life, could have made me rethink the way I live, but instead you showed me something boring and common because YOU enjoyed it?

Can you do that one again for my friend?
 
May 19, 2008
448
0
manchester
very very good thread :)

I just like performing, maybe its theater, maybe its circus skills, maybe its magic.
I like see people when they are entertained.
I like to busk with freinds.

maybe ive got it all wrong, I dont know, I just like to perform.

is that what magic is about? is it about me performing or them being entertained - or is it both?

maybe its about making people happy. maybe its about forcing the drama/theater at them untill you make them scream.

who nows...

(im being sooo deap aren't I. lol)
 
Dec 23, 2007
1,579
4
36
Fredonia, NY
Im pretty sure you both missed the point of this thread. Probably didn't even read it at all.

However Toyrobot VERY nice thread

i did read it, i even agree with several of the points. however, there have been several threads complaining about the way things are. What i dont see is a suggestion to change those things that has any real world application and hope of working. yes, certain things aren't ideal, yes certain people dont apprectiate the art, but do you think taking the time to write a monstrously long essay that bashes people and judges them is the way to fix that? especially in such a satirical tone? i personally dont think its going to change anything. people are going to continue doing what they will. Different people get different things out of the magic community as is their prerogative. we just have to accept that there is no right way just our own opinions. Why worry about it. Just enjoy what you can out of the community and do your best to further the art not tear others down


with that said, i still respect what your trying to do, i just dont agree with your methods
 
Dec 28, 2007
325
0
32
Finland
Ah, greatest post I've ever read in these forums.

What we have to think now is, how we would like to introduce ourselves. As cool visual artists?




Hi! I'm 2ndDeal. I'd like to introduce myself as an active magician. I would have a couple of coin routines and some card routines ready to show you any time. Every movement in my performance would have a meaning.

But, I have to admit, I'm better at talking about routines than practising them.
 
I think magic forums are a place where magicians are to ask other magicians questions, get advice, and talk with others that do the same thing. Not getting into abstract arguments about the core of magic and how it should bo done and performed.

I do agree with several points in your post, but in that time you could've done what we are all suppossed to be doing.......MAGIC.
 
May 8, 2008
1,081
0
Cumbria, UK
Wow, 3 posts in and you've already made your name known to me. Brilliant thread, it really made me think. Where do I fit in? What am I doing? What should I be doing? Thanks for this.
 
Oct 24, 2008
244
0
Savannah, GA
i did read it, i even agree with several of the points. however, there have been several threads complaining about the way things are. What i dont see is a suggestion to change those things that has any real world application and hope of working. yes, certain things aren't ideal, yes certain people dont apprectiate the art, but do you think taking the time to write a monstrously long essay that bashes people and judges them is the way to fix that? especially in such a satirical tone? i personally dont think its going to change anything. people are going to continue doing what they will. Different people get different things out of the magic community as is their prerogative. we just have to accept that there is no right way just our own opinions. Why worry about it. Just enjoy what you can out of the community and do your best to further the art not tear others down


with that said, i still respect what your trying to do, i just dont agree with your methods

It wasn't even that. I'm not attempting to bash anyone - you don't know me, but I'm an eternal optimist. Rather, I purposefully phrased it harshly so that people would think about it. If I had been nice and sugarcoated, people would just pass it by.

For all the problems with the community and with magic, there's tons more good. And I did propose a solution - get everyone talking and coming up with new ideas. That's the best place to start.

I'm not fishing for Good Jobs or thumbs-up - I want people to talk about things and really think without just copying the same ideas over and over. And, yeah, technically I've compiled a list of the same things over and over, but I'm trying to use that as a method to move on with the discussion.

Also, the whole thing took maybe 15 minutes to type up. Hardly "way too much time" :D
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,410
6
Sydney, Australia
Great post.

I think the most important thing to realise about magic is this:

Magic is not about you!

That's right. Magic does not revolve around you.

I've been into acting for a long time, practically all my life. One of the first and most important principles to learn about performing (you do perform magic, right?), is that it's never about you. It's all about your audience. You see all those big Hollywood stars, who get praised heaped on them?

When they're in front of camera, it's not about them. When the camera is on them, it's still not about them.

The best actors in the world understand that on stage, on camera, when you act, you don't make yourself look good - you make other actors look good, and they make you look good. The concept in magic is essentially similar. It's not about you, the magician. It's about the audience. You perform for the audience. FOR the audience. It's not about the praise, and that's a sure way to not get what you could.

Always, always keep the spectator foremost in mind.

Let me re-iterate, since the vast majority of people will never read or take note of this. This single sentence has the power to transform and improve your performances.

It's not about you.
 
Great post.

I think the most important thing to realise about magic is this:

Magic is not about you!

That's right. Magic does not revolve around you.

I've been into acting for a long time, practically all my life. One of the first and most important principles to learn about performing (you do perform magic, right?), is that it's never about you. It's all about your audience. You see all those big Hollywood stars, who get praised heaped on them?

When they're in front of camera, it's not about them. When the camera is on them, it's still not about them.

The best actors in the world understand that on stage, on camera, when you act, you don't make yourself look good - you make other actors look good, and they make you look good. The concept in magic is essentially similar. It's not about you, the magician. It's about the audience. You perform for the audience. FOR the audience. It's not about the praise, and that's a sure way to not get what you could.

Always, always keep the spectator foremost in mind.

Let me re-iterate, since the vast majority of people will never read or take note of this. This single sentence has the power to transform and improve your performances.

It's not about you.

did I ever mention how amazing ALL of your posts are?
 
Aug 10, 2008
2,023
2
33
In a rock concert
Man, Im just happy to see guys like you posting like this (kinda reminded me of steerpike) anyway, I know there have been a lot of threads talking about this, but NOT talking in the way you are talking it, I like your point of view and I hope We could see more threads about you in the future....


(some of the "quotes" that you used, felt like a kick in the *&%$s to me) jaja nice work..
 
Oct 24, 2008
244
0
Savannah, GA
Great post.

I think the most important thing to realise about magic is this:

Magic is not about you!

That's right. Magic does not revolve around you.

I've been into acting for a long time, practically all my life. One of the first and most important principles to learn about performing (you do perform magic, right?), is that it's never about you. It's all about your audience. You see all those big Hollywood stars, who get praised heaped on them?

When they're in front of camera, it's not about them. When the camera is on them, it's still not about them.

The best actors in the world understand that on stage, on camera, when you act, you don't make yourself look good - you make other actors look good, and they make you look good. The concept in magic is essentially similar. It's not about you, the magician. It's about the audience. You perform for the audience. FOR the audience. It's not about the praise, and that's a sure way to not get what you could.

Always, always keep the spectator foremost in mind.

Let me re-iterate, since the vast majority of people will never read or take note of this. This single sentence has the power to transform and improve your performances.

It's not about you.

My girlfriend was in an improv comedy group a few years back, and every so often I'd go sit in with them. I'd get to watch them practice, see all their performances, and was let in on all their special exercises and training. One of the things the teacher went over with them was the concept of "pimping" the other actor - it meant to play up the other guy in the scene instead of yourself, like what you're saying here. The idea being, the scene can continue and will develop instead of stall out if you're coming up with more ideas and more ways to interact.

Watching them practice, I saw that the ones who pimped would have better scenes. Better flow. The story would take off in all directions, and the actors were never struggling to figure out what to say - the other actor was constantly, every line, giving them more and more options about what to do.
And then, the ones who didn't really grasp the concept, their scenes were much shorter and puttered out. There were fewer openings, less connection, and most importantly, less emotional investment.

Apply that same concept to a performance. Do a trick you think is crappy or basic or common, but the spectator will think is really cool. Let them react, let them have fun, so they can fuel you in turn. Trim your routine down to what will totally rock the current venue - because you might not get to perform your favorite tricks for THIS crowd, but I promise you there will be a crowd that's ready for it.
 
Sep 17, 2008
195
1
Maryland
My girlfriend was in an improv comedy group a few years back, and every so often I'd go sit in with them. I'd get to watch them practice, see all their performances, and was let in on all their special exercises and training. One of the things the teacher went over with them was the concept of "pimping" the other actor - it meant to play up the other guy in the scene instead of yourself, like what you're saying here. The idea being, the scene can continue and will develop instead of stall out if you're coming up with more ideas and more ways to interact.

Watching them practice, I saw that the ones who pimped would have better scenes. Better flow. The story would take off in all directions, and the actors were never struggling to figure out what to say - the other actor was constantly, every line, giving them more and more options about what to do.
And then, the ones who didn't really grasp the concept, their scenes were much shorter and puttered out. There were fewer openings, less connection, and most importantly, less emotional investment.

Apply that same concept to a performance. Do a trick you think is crappy or basic or common, but the spectator will think is really cool. Let them react, let them have fun, so they can fuel you in turn. Trim your routine down to what will totally rock the current venue - because you might not get to perform your favorite tricks for THIS crowd, but I promise you there will be a crowd that's ready for it.


Funny you mentioned that. I teach a improv comedy troupe after school and one of the first thing I did with my kids (kind of an initiation) is get them one at a time up on stage and they have to just "do" anything. The audience has an important job. If they find that the lone actor isn't interesting, they are to get up and walk out of the room. The actor must continue until everyone has gone.

The purpose? Well, if you're not entertaining your audience then you aren't doing your job as an Improver.

Same thing goes with magic.
 
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