The Internet: Silent Killer of Talent?

Sep 1, 2007
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You know me. I'm a bitter, cranky, miserable Slav (in other words, a Slav) with a chip on his shoulder and an axe to grind about some new pet cause every couple of months. I seldom if ever pull a punch and I don't suffer fools gladly. Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw of the popular web series "Zero Punctuation" was once quoted as saying in an episode of said series, "[Art] is all for not if it isn't surrounded by self-important bearded tossers who read too much into things for a living." Which is the sum total of my personality.

But are guys like me really your enemies? Savage critics with a superiority complex may be ham-fisted, blunt, and even downright arrogant and rude, but how much damage can we actually do when our actions are ostensibly meant to raise the standard of the art world we're so passionate about? Naturally, obsession and misguided actions can have negative consequences, but I would argue that there is a far more insidious enemy at work.

Encyclopedia Dramatica is a wiki maintained mostly by trolls and people with a lot of free time and not a lot of ambition. Nevertheless, it does make for some entertaining insight into the slimy underbelly of the internet. Many of the articles describe certain individuals who are recurring sources of drama or incidents in which much trolling and laughter was had at the expense of some poor netizen whose ego or emotional instability caused them to do something titanically foolish.

For example, let's take the wonderful world of webcomics. For those not in the know, webcomics are sequential art taking advantage of the publisherless medium that is the internet. Unfortunately because the lack of publishers translates to a lack of quality control this means that for every "Adventures of Dr. McNinja" and "Order of the Stick" there are about a hundred knock-offs of "Penny Arcade," gag-a-day comics that don't actually tell jokes and use cheap violence in lieu of actual humor, animu-art based fantasy epics that are neither, abysmal diary comics, and a slew of other works with bad art and even worse writing.

A stereotype about the webcomics community is that the artists in the scene are faux-alpha-male egotists who respond to any and all criticism of their work with screaming, personal attacks, and death threats that they have neither the inclination nor the psychoses to actually carry out. And indeed this is often the case as evidenced by the now defunct Blogspot blog "Your Webcomic Is Bad and You Should Feel Bad," run by four different authors giving scathing critiques on not only the comics themselves but also the bad attitudes of the creators. The attempts at trolling the blog by fans and the artists themselves is unintentionally hilarious all on its own.

What about the ever-popular deviantArt? DA suffers from many of the same problems as the webcomics collective in that it's ruled primarily be egos that do not have the talent necessary to back them up. Again, publisherless medium. Flame wars get started over imagined transgressions routinely and a cult of Japanophiles seems to be calling most of the shots now as they drive so much traffic (read: potential ad revenue) to the site that the admins give them a free pass on all of their bad behaviour with only a slap on the wrist for the worst violations of the terms of service.

Of particularly hilarious/depressing note are several incidents in which several DA users came to the Concept Art message boards. If you haven't heard of Concept Art, it is a forum run by and for professional and semi-pro artists and art students. Just a casual perusal of the works on display in the Finally Finished section is enough to make your jaw detach from your skull just so it can fall to floor faster. And yet even the most brilliant pieces have brutally honest and constructive critiques following them. The CA forums are built on the ethic of constant self-improvement.

So of course the deviantArt kids come in expecting to make waves and promptly flip right the hell out once they are given criticism instead of fawning praise. This has happened several times. Furry artists, fan artists, and even one case of a girl who drew absolutely filthy fetish manga that I won't describe here for the sake of decency and because any description of it would be followed by the sound of screaming, most likely your own.

Where does all the drama come from? What is the root cause? Simply put: fans.

The egalitarian nature of the internet has caused many young and aspiring artists to confuse fans with critics, page views and traffic figures with value, and vapid comments on their profiles as a sign of talent on their part. Fans are the lifeblood of a professional artist. Graphic artists take commissions to supplement their incomes, musicians need fans to buy their albums and merchandise, filmmakers need fans to buy tickets for a consistent return on their production costs, authors don't sell many books without fans, and magicians and other performers need fans to continue expanding their clientelle and getting paid gigs.

But fans are not critics. Their support is to be enjoyed and valued, but should never be mistaken for advice. If you forget that, then they become parasites.

The magic community is seeing a new tech-savvy generation utilizing the internet to spread magic to the masses, but the online magic world is incestuous and unambitious. Not too long ago I had a brief and unpleasant conversation with a young man on YouTube who was not even old enough to drive a car and had only ever performed one paying gig for his relatives, but was making videos telling people how to go pro. Myself and only a handful of other people were the only ones disagreeing with him and offering constructive criticism. The rest of them were kids like him telling him to ignore us and babbling about how cool and great he was. Such an environment is poisonous.

If you are going to use the internet to spread and develop your art, you must seek out those who are going to give you the hard truth. If you let the YouTube masses be the only source of feedback you get, you'll begin to believe that you're good enough and will simply stagnate, slack off, and wither away into obscurity as the parasites find a fresh new host to feed off of. And you, dependent on the euphoria their flattery and praise gives you, will have already burned the bridges to the people who could have helped you while you desperately try to bring that good feeling back. Is that really what you want?

The internet is a bold new medium and still has a lot of untapped potential. But it's still largely unchartered wilderness. Here there be monsters.
 
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Aug 10, 2008
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In a rock concert
A couple of members from here and myself we were talking about criticism yesterday, Sadly, most users here are used to appraisals from they're mom's and dad's, its no surprise that they are simple like "eff that! Im awesome, a lot of people have told me that!".


Is a lost battle in my opinion, a lot of people here in the forums think that I am a prick sometimes when I give criticism, but put yourself in my shoes for a moment, we talk and give criticism nicelye and lovely... you guys just ignore us, we do it being harsh and direct? and you guys get offended, I can count with my hand the number of people that listens criticism AND does something about it, a lot of people just reads and are like "oh yeah, I'll change that" but they keep on being the mediocre performers they are.


Its kinda like a lost battle as I sad before, but im a positive guy, at least, I know wich guys here actually are magicians and who is just another kid that does card tricks...

Im losing all my hope in the forums, really, they are kinda like in a downfall, even, take the "Go_Out.Perform" thread I made like a month or two ago, it seems like people only submit videos there to receive appraisal's, it was very sad that it was just a bunch of us criticising videos, at the end, just Shakutau and me remained, but at least, I learned a lot during that time.










:(
 
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Sep 1, 2007
3,786
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A couple of members from here and myself we were talking about criticism yesterday, Sadly, most users here are used to appraisals from they're mom's and dad's, its no surprise that they are simple like "eff that! Im awesome, a lot of people have told me that!".

Grammar nazi moment, but an appraisal is an evaluation of the worth or value of a good or service. In the context you were using, you were thinking of words like praise, flattery, or possibly even platitudes.

Is a lost battle in my opinion, a lot of people here in the forums think that I am a prick sometimes when I give criticism,

Some people are so dependent on the parasites that the only cure is to be completely cut off from them and allow withdrawal to work out. But you and I both know that there are people out there for whom it's not too late.

Im losing all my hope in the forums, really, they are kinda like in a downfall, even, take the "Go_Out.Perform" thread I made like a month or two ago, it seems like people only submit videos there to receive appraisal's, it was very sad that it was just a bunch of us criticising videos, at the end, just Shakutau and me remained, but at least, I learned a lot during that time.

If it's any help, I'm planning on launching the forums for my website in January. I wanted to establish a sub-forum for magicians that is invitation only based more on ambition and the desire to improve than what level of skill you are currently at. Think of it as an anti-Magic-Cafe. You'll be among the list, I assure you.
 
Aug 10, 2008
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In a rock concert
If it's any help, I'm planning on launching the forums for my website in January. I wanted to establish a sub-forum for magicians that is invitation only based more on ambition and the desire to improve than what level of skill you are currently at. Think of it as an anti-Magic-Cafe. You'll be among the list, I assure you.

Anti-Magic cafe? That really sounds like something good :).

BTW, excuse my grammar, english is not my mother language, so I have problems sometimes to express my thoughts.
 
As filmmaker who considers himself part of the Youtube generation of filmmaking I see the internet as a large opportunity for anyone. Now you talk about these magicians on Youtube as if they're huge. As if they've got thousands upon thousands of fans. But in reality their fan base is only a fraction of what it could be. Now we must not just look at Youtube... because once again while it's a large portion of creative content on the web many incredibly successful web series became hugely popular in other locations.

Look at IndyMogul, WhitestKids, and DerrickComedy (to name a few) they all became popular via the internet. Why did they become popular? Because of their highly original and top quality content.

I would like you to show me one highly successful magic web series on Youtube? There really isn't one that is incredibly successful. Why? Maybe it's because of the reason you stated, there just aren't many talented magicians who try to push this content on Youtube. But now that just contradicts your point. They don't have any fans, they don't have any critics because they're not popular due to their lack of talent. If that doesn't make sense my bad. I just woke up.

In the end I think that if you're pleasing fans you're doing something right. I personally have no problem with people who are doing what they love and pleasing people at the same time. Really if you do you are (like you said) bitter. I can't stand the music of the Jonas Brothers, but hey, they're doing what they love and pleasing millions of people while doing it. All the best to them. It's just a matter of me not listening to them.

Steerpike, it's just a matter of you not watching.

Mitch
 
Sep 1, 2007
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As filmmaker who considers himself part of the Youtube generation of filmmaking I see the internet as a large opportunity for anyone. Now you talk about these magicians on Youtube as if they're huge. As if they've got thousands upon thousands of fans. But in reality their fan base is only a fraction of what it could be. Now we must not just look at Youtube... because once again while it's a large portion of creative content on the web many incredibly successful web series became hugely popular in other locations.

Look at IndyMogul, WhitestKids, and DerrickComedy (to name a few) they all became popular via the internet. Why did they become popular? Because of their highly original and top quality content.

All aboard the Tangent Express. Next stops: Manhattan, Toledo, and NotMyPointville

74 subscribers is hardly a huge fanbase for Youtube.

Mitch

Mental note: to properly communicate sarcasm, must use more bad grammar, spelling errors, and ugly vB code.
 
Aug 10, 2008
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In a rock concert
74 subscribers is hardly a huge fanbase for Youtube.

Mitch

I thought you were going to catch the sarcasm there..Oh well....

However, in all seriousness, it's Tally's upcoming season on Youtube you should be looking forward to...;)

O yeah man, Totally, Im sure that Lamont already suscribed ;)


Anyway, I dont think that Steer post was aimed at Youtube magicians, he was using them as an example along devian art and the other examples he mentioned, I think that the whole point here was about criticism and how "fans" can a lot of the times damage our quality as performers instead of making us grow.Maybe I also understood bad the point of steer but Im sure that he will further explain.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Anyway, I dont think that Steer post was aimed at Youtube magicians, he was using them as an example along devian art and the other examples he mentioned, I think that the whole point here was about criticism and how "fans" can a lot of the times damage our quality as performers instead of making us grow.Maybe I also understood bad the point of steer but Im sure that he will explain further.

My specific point was that on the internet it's very easy to take fawning flattery as criticism. It has the effect of building up your ego, but not through any true sense of accomplishment. Thus your unwarranted self-image is made of glass and you become very defensive of it. The longer this goes on, the harder it is to shatter that glass self-image and rebuild a new, stronger one based on actual achievement and accolades that you truly earned.

The loyalty of fans should never be taken for granted, but they are not qualified to help you grow as an artist. Most of them wouldn't know how to critique you even if they wanted to. Communities like Concept Art exist specifically to give people a nurturing environment, not a happy social club.

For Mitchell to talk about how internet magicians don't have legions of fans is irrelevant and pointless. I would say he's missing the forest for the trees, but he's not even looking in the same direction as the forest.
 
Jan 13, 2008
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My question is, does this really just happen on the internet, or does the internet just provide a convenient place to notice these people? The way I see it, they'd exist whether or not there was a Youtube to broadcast their stupidity, and a forum to tell everyone about their next big disaster. It's just a lot easier to take notice of a grouping of stupid people.

Personally, if I were to gripe about the internet, it would be about how the internet (and texting) have demolished basic grammar skills. Sadly, even my professors have noticed this happening, and see it as a big enough deal to devote a lecture to. Although, I'm also the type that would blame the environment (including people the person grows up around--I'm looking at you, parents; the computer is NOT a babysitter), as apposed to just the internet/texting. Alas, this is not what the thread is about. Back to complaining about people sheltering themselves from the knowledge needed to better themselves. :)
 
Sep 1, 2007
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My question is, does this really just happen on the internet, or does the internet just provide a convenient place to notice these people? The way I see it, they'd exist whether or not there was a Youtube to broadcast their stupidity, and a forum to tell everyone about their next big disaster. It's just a lot easier to take notice of a grouping of stupid people.

Certainly, this phenomenon is not exclusive to the internet. However it is my belief that it is a much more prominent danger here than elsewhere. The reason being that most amateurs seldom show their work to anyone outside their friends and family. Since they have no true confidence in their work and can't take criticism, they never venture further than that.

But online, you can reach a larger audience of cheerleaders, and it only takes a few to create the illusion that your work has larger appeal regardless of quality or the lack thereof. Page views and site traffic also enhance the facade. The ability to receive instantaneous feedback also means that fans are liable to come to your defense in real time.

These factors and others combine to augment the problem. If you're going to display your work online, you need to be aware that sooner or later you're going to find this happening.
 
Jan 28, 2009
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Steer as usual has a point. I actually believe it to be worse than he is contending. YouTube, DA, etc don't just provide you with an easily won over fan base of drooling ten year olds that will applaud your 'art', they actively encourage that kind of meaningless 'criticism' through their very formulation.

On YouTube for instance, there are a variety of factors at play. The first is that often people will comment and 'subscribe' to someone's work because they know that it's often a quid pro quo situation. If you also have a channel and leave nice feedback and subscribe to someone's channel, they'll often repay the favor. I'm not going to name and shame any magicians that could so easily jump to the tip of my tongue, but just point out that if you check out the high subscription individuals.....they often subscribe to others more than they are subscribed to. This leads to views, but so does posting your video as a reply to an already hugely viewed video and piggy backing it to a high number of views.

The other mechanism that YouTube provides you, is the ability to critique your own criticism. You can delete comments from your videos. How many times have you seen a YouTube page with an awful magician performing ridiculously poor sleights or posting ridiculously average performances and all the comments read, "You are literally the most amazing person in the whole universe."

The reason for this is simple. They edit out all the honest comments. Delete them outright. Thus rapidly it appears that the group consensus has declared them a God leading to more of the easily swayed jumping on the band wagon.

To use another example, lets say Iaido. There was a well known YouTube guy that professed to be a sword master. He then posted videos that were a cross between XMA (Extreme Martial Arts, which are in effect a good looking dance with weapons, with some gymnastics thrown in) and very poor genuine martial arts. Both were appallingly done, and embarrassingly bad on all fronts, yet all the comments were amazing, and he developed a cult following. He became an 'inspiration'. The fact that his videos were total drivel were irrelevant. People watched his stuff, and seemed to leave good criticism. Simply because no other type was permitted.

The fact that it never leads to any modicum of success is irrelevant to the individual. The real world is just that inconvenient reminder that they suck. I have seen a magic video on youtube which is AWFUL, which attracted more than 1.5 million hits. Why? All of the above. Posted in response to a David Blaine video, subscribed to and counter subscribed and all bad comments deleted thus generating heat and riding on the back of the MadV magic videos. (Which were as and unto themselves lamentable.)

So its not just that the internet kills talent because people naturally believe what's good about themselves, it's that it also allows them to edit their own critics to the point that when they look at their page all they see is how great they are.

I can't think of a single good reason to post a magic video on YouTube just to demonstrate a trick to a camera. Sure you may want some feedback from other magicians....well here's an idea....go to magic shop, or any other place with talented magicians in it (there are a lot of them about) and ask for an honest opinion. If you must video your performance, then video it and send it to select magicians that you know and trust based on their performance experience and skill level.

You can't edit that criticism, and because you aren't exposing your ineptitude to the general public, it's doubtful anyone would feel the need to.
 
Feb 27, 2008
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Grand prairie TX
Alot of what I have wanted to say,has been.
years ago I was so eager to put my performances on vimeo and/or youtube but after looking at some performance videos myself and seeing below mediocre performances getting highly praised or "at least your out performing" comments...uhh yeah,no. I wanted real criticism. And I wasnt gonna get it on the internet. I would record a performance and then watch myself and give my own criticism. I was real freaking harsh to myself.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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The first is that often people will comment and 'subscribe' to someone's work because they know that it's often a quid pro quo situation. If you also have a channel and leave nice feedback and subscribe to someone's channel, they'll often repay the favor. I'm not going to name and shame any magicians that could so easily jump to the tip of my tongue, but just point out that if you check out the high subscription individuals.....they often subscribe to others more than they are subscribed to. This leads to views, but so does posting your video as a reply to an already hugely viewed video and piggy backing it to a high number of views.

This also goes back to my analogy with the webcomic collective. The supremely masturbatory Web Cartoonists' Choice Awards are, as the name suggests, a series of awards given out every year as voted on by the people who make webcomics. It's nothing more than an excuse to piggyback on one another, giving up meaningless praise in exchange for reciprocated adulation for yourself at a later date. Awards tend to be handed out based more on site traffic than actual quality. How else do you explain Megatokyo getting more awards than Dr. McNinja?

The other mechanism that YouTube provides you, is the ability to critique your own criticism. You can delete comments from your videos. How many times have you seen a YouTube page with an awful magician performing ridiculously poor sleights or posting ridiculously average performances and all the comments read, "You are literally the most amazing person in the whole universe."

S'truth. Two more of YouTube's most notorious, Venomfangx and HowTheWorldWorks do just that. The former openly admitted to it. Both young men are the archetypal "internet celebrity" with Olympian egos and a penchant for bragging about their intelligence and education. If you look at their videos, the comments are a massive circle jerk of bad grammar and ass patting.
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
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Back in Time
I think people should ignore internet critics and just get it in person. Because the internet has the ability to turn normal humans into canninbals and often times idiots. Plus you're more likely to going to listen to a guy/girl who gives you advice in person, rather than on the internet. Because you're not hiding behind a keyboard and a monitor.
 
Jan 22, 2009
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Sweden
I can see Steerpikes point that recieving only positive comments can make a person full of themselves (not that people aren't full of themselves anyway), and less likely to listen to actual criticism. But does this really hurt the "art of magic" (man i hate how elitist that *goddamn censorship* sounds)? That some kid out there is getting praised for a bad performance?

Maybe, but I don't think so. I think that's just looking to deep.

The one problem I can see with it, and I think is the reason for many to adress this issue, is that a kid getting praise for a bad performance makes people think "hey, you think that kids good, look at me!". It also decreases magics value if people don't have to practice to be considered good, which decreases your value, not very good ey!
 
Dec 17, 2007
858
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Canada
Hey Steer, stop trying to impress us with your overly ornamented writing style, I haven't seen more adjectives since I've opened my leather-bound dictionary. Please, we all realize that you are somewhat smart but these ego trip posts are getting as old as Speaker Pelosi.

As for the topic at hand, people suck. They always have and always will, the internet has just super charged their suck. You can't get good criticism because the good critics are too busy giving advice to real magicians that don't waste their time on T11 and E. So, to any real magicians out there who happened to stumble upon this site please go on youtube and see what not to do. It is always better to learn form the mistakes of others than to try to follow their success.


-Michael
 
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