Erdnase Hero or Villain?

Oct 10, 2010
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Was Erdnase a Hero cause of his work or a villain cause of his work.

Hero cause of his card work or villain cause he was a killer






P.S. In this post I do not mean to insult Erdnase in anyway
 
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Apr 20, 2010
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I suppose you say he could be a villain because his slights are now used at the gambling table for bad use or something. The gambler's would have gotten the information anyways, and we (the magicians) would not have. He was a hero for discovering and publishing the moves, especially anonymously as to not take any credit. I don't think you're going to find any anti-Erdnase around these parts.

Also, you seem to be asking a lot of, as lightly as I can put it, philosophical questions about Erdnase, cheating, ethics, etc. Just wondering why this is in the Card Magic form rather than general discussion, at best.
 
Jul 13, 2010
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Isn´t Wesley James 'The Man who killed Erdnase' ?
I think he killed him with a color changing knife and his infamous (Charlier) cut...
 
Sep 15, 2009
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Hero, the way he contributed to the art of card magic was amazing.

Am i missing something, i don't know a lot about him, was he actually a killer haha?
 
Sep 2, 2007
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No, the story says he killed himself

That's only if you believe Milton Franklin Andrews was Erdnase. A lot of people, including me, don't think he was. The only person we know met Erdnase was Marshall D Smith, the illustrator of the book. He remembers Erdnase being about five foot six inches. Andrews was six foot one inches. Also, Andrews was about 29 when Smith did the illustrations, and he later remembered Erdnase as being an older man. The evidence for Andrews being Erdnase rests on some evidence from a known liar called E L Pratt.

All in all, there are some better candidates for Erdnase, including two actually called E S Andrews, which seems to fit better.
 
Mar 5, 2010
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Hello everyone,
If I had to say, I would say that Erdnase himself, was an "Anti-hero". Let's take a look at what the man is: A card man, like you and me, who just happens to enjoy gambling moves a little more than most. Consider him a vintage Madison haha. He did however write a book that would go on to influence men like Vernon, and thats saying something. Maybe it is because it's the oldest text of GOOD moves, or maybe it's just the secrecy that compels us to read it. Whatever your reason, Erdnase remains to be the reason some sleights are even alive today, Hero or Villain.

Regards,
--Brandon Wylie
 
Apr 25, 2009
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Yorktown, VA
I am going to have to go with Villian in this one. He was a card cheat who published the book just for a few bucks. It had nothing to do with advancing an art or improving magic. Granted, we can sit around and read his book and praise it for all the things we can learn from it, but that is because we can learn from evil around us.

Oh, and another note, I don't believe Erdnase killed anyone, though I can't state fact or fiction on that one because it is unknown at this time.
 
Sep 2, 2007
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I am going to have to go with Villian in this one. He was a card cheat who published the book just for a few bucks. It had nothing to do with advancing an art or improving magic. Granted, we can sit around and read his book and praise it for all the things we can learn from it, but that is because we can learn from evil around us.

I would dispute that, and argue that the book was written to advance the art. I know Erdnase said his motivation for the book was that "he needs the money", but I would say that's just a joke, a way of setting his work apart from the "whining, mealymouthed pretensions of piety" present in other crooked gambling literature. My reasons for thinking this are thus. Firstly, if you're an accomplished card cheat and you're in need of some fast money, surely you'd just find a sucker and take theirs. Writing and self-publishing a book is a lengthy and expensive process, and definitely not a handy way to make a few dollars when you're short of cash. Secondly, Erdnase gives away a lot of his own moves, and carefully considered thoughts. If he didn't care about advancing the art, and just wanted page-filler to make money, why give away such good stuff?
 
Apr 25, 2009
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Yorktown, VA
I would dispute that, and argue that the book was written to advance the art. I know Erdnase said his motivation for the book was that "he needs the money", but I would say that's just a joke, a way of setting his work apart from the "whining, mealymouthed pretensions of piety" present in other crooked gambling literature. My reasons for thinking this are thus. Firstly, if you're an accomplished card cheat and you're in need of some fast money, surely you'd just find a sucker and take theirs. Writing and self-publishing a book is a lengthy and expensive process, and definitely not a handy way to make a few dollars when you're short of cash. Secondly, Erdnase gives away a lot of his own moves, and carefully considered thoughts. If he didn't care about advancing the art, and just wanted page-filler to make money, why give away such good stuff?

You bring up good points, but in the end what you say is speculation. The book isn't a book of magic, it is a book on cheating with a few effects of magic scattered here and there (so he could have some filler material). It wasn't at all for furthering the art, we just happen to read it as such. And if you know anything about cheats, they tend to look for money in as many places as possible. And if that meant publishing a book to get a few extra bucks, then by all means, go for it. It was his idea of fast cash.
 
Sep 2, 2007
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You bring up good points, but in the end what you say is speculation. The book isn't a book of magic, it is a book on cheating with a few effects of magic scattered here and there (so he could have some filler material). It wasn't at all for furthering the art, we just happen to read it as such. And if you know anything about cheats, they tend to look for money in as many places as possible. And if that meant publishing a book to get a few extra bucks, then by all means, go for it. It was his idea of fast cash.

Erm, I don't want to be overly confrontational, but nothing that I said was speculation. I presented an argument, backed up with facts and evidence, and ending with a question. Unfortunately, the argument you present is based on faulty premises. First off, there aren't "a few effects of magic scattered here and there in the the book". If you discount the title page and other preamble, the book is almost exactly fifty percent "Card Table Artifice", and fifty percent "Legerdemain" in terms of quantity of pages. The other point is in regard to the psychology of cheats. Most, if not all, professional crooked gamblers that I know anything about have lived on a wildly inconsistent income throughout their career because they live in the moment, blowing their cash when they have it, trusting that the next sucker will be just round the corner. In other words, they don't tend to plan two years ahead to a time when they think they might be out of cash, and write a book as a way of insuring against that penury. That's no-one's idea of fast cash, apart from being a massively risky enterprise. In fact, it would seem probable that Erdnase lost money on his investment, given the halving in price within the first year of publication, and then the quick offloading of large quantities of copies.
 
Apr 25, 2009
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Yorktown, VA
Erm, I don't want to be overly confrontational, but nothing that I said was speculation. I presented an argument, backed up with facts and evidence, and ending with a question. Unfortunately, the argument you present is based on faulty premises. First off, there aren't "a few effects of magic scattered here and there in the the book". If you discount the title page and other preamble, the book is almost exactly fifty percent "Card Table Artifice", and fifty percent "Legerdemain" in terms of quantity of pages. The other point is in regard to the psychology of cheats. Most, if not all, professional crooked gamblers that I know anything about have lived on a wildly inconsistent income throughout their career because they live in the moment, blowing their cash when they have it, trusting that the next sucker will be just round the corner. In other words, they don't tend to plan two years ahead to a time when they think they might be out of cash, and write a book as a way of insuring against that penury. That's no-one's idea of fast cash, apart from being a massively risky enterprise. In fact, it would seem probable that Erdnase lost money on his investment, given the halving in price within the first year of publication, and then the quick offloading of large quantities of copies.

I have already quoted exactly what the book said, that it was for money. That makes it fact, not speculation. Need I mention that Wesley James, a leading researcher of Erdnase, agrees. You are going off of, "Well, if you study the psychology..." That is speculation. Every now and then you will find someone with a bit of sense to write a book, and I have met people with poor money management skills who have tried this. So when you start citing your sources (as I have now two cited in my arguement, both supporting, we can continue this conversation)
 
Sep 2, 2007
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I have already quoted exactly what the book said, that it was for money. That makes it fact, not speculation. Need I mention that Wesley James, a leading researcher of Erdnase, agrees. You are going off of, "Well, if you study the psychology..." That is speculation. Every now and then you will find someone with a bit of sense to write a book, and I have met people with poor money management skills who have tried this. So when you start citing your sources (as I have now two cited in my arguement, both supporting, we can continue this conversation)

OK. You seem to have misread what I said. You defend yourself against an accusation of speculation. That was what you addressed to me, I said you based your argument on faulty premises.

I didn't say that you need to study the psychology of cheats. I began a sentence with, "In regard to the psychology of cheats", as that was something already under discussion, and I was clarifying that it was to that point I was referring. I cite Erdnase himself in support (who was, I'm sure you'll agree, an even better Erdnase expert than "The Man Who Knows Erdnase"): "The average professional...knows little of the real value of money, and as a rule is generous, careless and improvident."

As evidence for Erdnase's use of ironic stylistic flourishes (of the "he needs the money" type), I refer you to, "If terrific denunciation of erstwhile assoiciates...are a criterion of ability, these purified prodigals must have been very dangerous companions at the card table."

Are there any other points on which you'd like me to cite sources? Also, my central point remains unchallenged, which is, in what way could writing a book be a method to make quick money? If you had a commission and advance from a publisher, then yes, maybe, but not when it's self-published.
 
Apr 25, 2009
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Yorktown, VA
OK. You seem to have misread what I said. You defend yourself against an accusation of speculation. That was what you addressed to me, I said you based your argument on faulty premises.

I didn't say that you need to study the psychology of cheats. I began a sentence with, "In regard to the psychology of cheats", as that was something already under discussion, and I was clarifying that it was to that point I was referring. I cite Erdnase himself in support (who was, I'm sure you'll agree, an even better Erdnase expert than "The Man Who Knows Erdnase"): "The average professional...knows little of the real value of money, and as a rule is generous, careless and improvident."

As evidence for Erdnase's use of ironic stylistic flourishes (of the "he needs the money" type), I refer you to, "If terrific denunciation of erstwhile assoiciates...are a criterion of ability, these purified prodigals must have been very dangerous companions at the card table."

Are there any other points on which you'd like me to cite sources? Also, my central point remains unchallenged, which is, in what way could writing a book be a method to make quick money? If you had a commission and advance from a publisher, then yes, maybe, but not when it's self-published.

Now, that is an argument. I am so glad that you didn't resort to the name calling that has become popular in these forums. Upon another review of what you said compared to my rebuttal, you are right, I went after the wrong points. Though in the end, it would just be a debate of opinions. I do know of many fools who have gone after writing a book for quick cash (though I feel that our terms of quick might differ). When I look at quick cash I think of a large sum that will come due to a short spurt of work, such as the get rich quick schemes of sales and what not. You do a little of the work in the beginning and live off of it for a while after. Check out the name Louis Puster III on Amazon and you will see one of the ones to whom I am so opposed.

In the end, I think this is just one of the topics that we are going to have to agree to disagree on.
 
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