Draven Reflects upon the Wire.

RickEverhart

forum moderator / t11
Elite Member
Sep 14, 2008
3,637
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Louisville, OH
Shin, don't quote me on an exact price but I know for sure of two gentlemen who have price tags (one above and one below) $4,000 with Paper Crane. I never said that was just the filming. I'm talking everything total. The man / woman hours in filming, editing, cutting. I'm talking about the art work design for the DVD, the cover, materials, packaging of gimmicks, advertising, etc. There is a lot more than goes into it than you think by the time you start with raw footage film. The cost jumps up pretty darn quickly so the way most companies do it is, you either pay some money up front to get the ball rolling or you wait until the product starts selling and hope that your revenue exceeds your expenditures before the magician starts seeing $.

Danny,
What's up man? We haven't chatted in awhile. Like Draven was saying earlier, anytime you work with an agent or someone who is helping you get gigs or exposure, 20-25 % usually comes right off the top and is given to the person who got you the gig. Any time someone in my club books me for a gig, I give them 20%. That is pretty standard across the board. By amateurs like us releasing material on The Wire, you are being given the potential to become the next big thing and make a few bucks or you can still enjoy it as a consumer and find more products that you might enjoy. I just sent you a PM so check it.
 
i disagree with the 40% is too damn high party. Obviously hosting this and screening all submissions is gunna take some work so t11 needs some income, also no one is going to be living off of the wire profits, if you are planning on being a creative for a living you will want a deal directly with t11 or E or whatever.
also just took a look at cylinder by andrei and it looks a terribly lot like the werm so..... ya.
 
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j.bayme

ceo / theory11
Team member
Jul 23, 2007
2,848
352
New York City
Hey guys,

Some great questions posted here that I'd be more than happy to step in and answer. To be clear, however, none of these issues (per Hectic's post) were missed or overlooked. Every issue I've seen thus far in this thread is covered and detailed in our guidelines and Terms and Conditions within The Wire. That said, that Terms and Conditions document is quite long (it must be), so I'll provide bullet point answers below that will hopefully clear up these questions:

1. Content you post on The Wire is yours. You own it. We do not. As such, you do not forfeit any rights by posting your effect on The Wire. You made the video. It's yours. And it will continue to be yours. As long as it abides by our reasonable guidelines (no profanity, etc), you have complete control over your own title, description, preview video, instructional video, written credits, and even get to set your own release date!

2. Our royalty rate on The Wire is the best in the industry, by far. Unparalleled. Unheard of. Murphy's Magic, the largest distributor of physical magic DVD's, typically purchases units at 40% of retail cost. On The Wire, you'll be receiving 20% greater than that - 60% on every unit sold. We provide the platform, the marketplace, an enormous audience, payment processing, and the bandwidth. To compare, it's a valid point that Apple provides developers 70% royalty (10% greater than us), but the iTunes App Store is run at break even, not for profit, to support sales of iPhones and iPad's. We don't make iPhone's. So as a business, we have to be make cents. That said, you can also publish your effect or move for FREE, and we encourage that route as well.

3. Our team will review each submission received to make sure our guidelines are upheld. The effect or move must have creative merit - a simple double lift and two Shapeshifters doesn't count as an original trick. By submitting an effect on The Wire, you certify that you have all rights to publish that material and content, but our team will serve as an additional filter to make sure things remain above board and on the right track.

4. What happens when something already published gets approved? Notice I say when - not if. It will happen. By submitting your effect to The Wire, you're certifying that in your best judgment and to the best of your knowledge, it's yours. But what happens when it isn't, and it slips through our filters and knowledge as well? The good news is that our team is uniquely qualified to ascertain such details, having an unparalleled knowledge of magic and advisors that are the foremost historians in the industry. If, and when, an issue relating to the sort presents itself, contact our crew, report it, and it will be investigated, responded to, and resolved immediately.

This is very exciting! We are humbled to read your comments and immensely appreciative of that support. Especially after SO much work has gone into The Wire over years of time, it's a huge moment for us to finally have that secret 'out there' in the wild. I'm sure more questions will come up. This is unchartered territory for the magic industry, but that's a good thing. We must step outside the past to enter the future. In the process, issues will arise, but our team is committed to fair, honest, responsible, and professional oversight of The Wire as a platform. The rest is up to you - The Wire is all about you.
 
Sep 1, 2007
1,395
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Belgrade, Serbia
Well, the Wire has done so far for me than anything else before (and I haven't even submitted a trick yet), and that is, getting my creative juices going. In the past 24 hours I have thought of more moves, tricks, effects, presentations, gimmicks etc. then in the past year. Remember when Daniel Madison posted the video of "the Change", and then everybody tried to figure out a method. Well I think of the wire the same. Even if I never publish an effect on the Wire, it will still push me forward in my creative thinking, and pushing me further in my magic.
That said, I have some questions:
1. I think that Draven's question about posting a video tutorial about making and keeping clients should be answered. I would like to post a video dealing with misdirection and presentation (which lacks in many magic DVD's), so is that possible? Or does it have to be a move or a trick?
2. I also have an effect of a signed card to ANY wallet (ANY means either yours or spectators, and ANY size wallet), palming and no palming variations. I haven't seen that exact method done before (which doesn't mean it doesn't exist), and I've done some research. So will T11 tell me where it was done before, and also, if it's original, since it contains palming in some variations, will I be allowed to teach the basic palming or no?
3. Do we need to record everything (performance AND explanation) before submitting, or do we record performance only, and then explanation once the trick is accepted?
Thank you!
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
I don't think any of the effects will be performed or taught exactly by the users or people who submitted them. What I figure will happen is that you submit the effect, they research it, and then decide if it's good or bad. Then they just get one of their artists to perform/teach it in a 1 on 1 kind of way. The performer would just say "This effect was created by Steve Johnson". Otherwise it would be a bit silly to try to fly everybody to a Theory location, then film it and do all that stuff.
 
Jul 18, 2010
210
0
I hadn't meant that you guys overlooked things, but that I didn't see them initially. It wasn't presented right up front (rather, on the ToS, which I haven't read yet). I meant no disrespect.

Would you mind answering this question?

Another question I have was about ownership. So obviously original content is required, but say I have a friend who made this awesome trick. Say he wants to sell it but doesn't have the equipment and wants me to produce it. If I film, shoot, and edit the video, and he isn't even in it, but it's used with permission from the creator, can it be submitted?
 
i feel that this will stunt magic in the long run. magicians now of days (the younger more impressionable ones) only care about being the next garcia or calen or hauss. They just want to create and get paid. They think they can make a living from their creations and that the only audience they are performing for are magicians and youtube. I think we as a magic community really need to push kids away from the whole lets create and make money/ get famous state of mind and get them to the lets perform, get experience and from that will come creativity and more possible fame. Creating magic doesnt help much in getting gigs because frankly, no one other than magicians care about what tricks you perform or create. They just want to see that you have performance experience and are entertaining. This creator mindset is suppressing the want to perform. yea we all want to perform, but where do you really see site like T11 really try to push us to go out and try to perform for real people and clients and really get famous. Criss Angel didnt get famous from sitting at home on his computer posting his magic on youtube. neither did David Blaine. Yes being creative can help you get into creative consulting jobs and if you create really great magic and can perform it to real people you can go far.
that is just my two cents. we are creating a generation of magic creators instead of performers.

no since im done ranting i do think that the wire is an alright idea for people to get their products out there or their ideas. if someone has a great idea you can go for it, but if it is a great idea, why wouldnt you just have a company pick it up. yes it is cheaper to distribute this way and get out there but we need to be careful of what we post as if the effect is shot, then your reputation will be also. also it will be more difficult to get your stuff to the top of the charts, but dont expect it beating the "name" creators and performers like DaOrtiz, patrick kun, or herp.
Try not to get your hopes way up. it may make you a few bucks but you need to make sure you really want to put your trick, or w/e out.
time will tell how the wire works out, but untill then we shall just wait.
 
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j.bayme

ceo / theory11
Team member
Jul 23, 2007
2,848
352
New York City
Another question I have was about ownership. So obviously original content is required, but say I have a friend who made this awesome trick. Say he wants to sell it but doesn't have the equipment and wants me to produce it. If I film, shoot, and edit the video, and he isn't even in it, but it's used with permission from the creator, can it be submitted?

Hey Hectic, no problem! Of course, we are ready and here to answer any questions like this. With regard to your specific question, that would not be a problem at all. By submitting an effect or video to The Wire, you are certifying that you either created it independently of your own invention, or otherwise have all applicable rights to submit it. What we're looking for are effects that have creative merit - they must have some original element - quality. Of course, all submissions must abide by the obvious copyright laws as well (so don't put Jay-Z music as your preview video)!
 
Jul 18, 2010
210
0
Pssh, who uses Jay - Z for videos.

Thanks for answer though. I intend to produce some stuff for a friend of mind that doesn't life around here. Also, a free little flourish. I'm too damn busy to do any work on it this weekend though, so I won't be there for the first day.

Also, on an unrelated note, what software do you guys use for your editing? Just curious. I'm a fan of adobe but I'm guessing you guys are a more Final Cut kind of company.
 
I don't think any of the effects will be performed or taught exactly by the users or people who submitted them. What I figure will happen is that you submit the effect, they research it, and then decide if it's good or bad. Then they just get one of their artists to perform/teach it in a 1 on 1 kind of way. The performer would just say "This effect was created by Steve Johnson". Otherwise it would be a bit silly to try to fly everybody to a Theory location, then film it and do all that stuff.

Actually, every video is made by the submitters. t11 doesn't film anything extra or change the videos at all.

PS. HeCtic, I heard somewhere that t11 uses Final Cut. Hope that helps :)
 

Jay Adra

Elite Member
Jul 11, 2011
332
3
Australia
www.jayadra.com
Since this seems to be the place for questions, I have one:

Is anyone else having the same issue of not being able to access Account Settings or Edit Profile on The Wire? It seems to go to /account/settings or whatever, but still loads the Dashboard. Not sure if it's just me or just a bug in the system, or maybe even just not accessible currently?
 

Lyle Borders

Elite Member
Aug 5, 2008
1,604
859
Seattle, WA
www.theory11.com
Since this seems to be the place for questions, I have one:

Is anyone else having the same issue of not being able to access Account Settings or Edit Profile on The Wire? It seems to go to /account/settings or whatever, but still loads the Dashboard. Not sure if it's just me or just a bug in the system, or maybe even just not accessible currently?

Because of a bug in the brand new system, it is not currently available, but should be up and running full speed in the morning.

L
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
Actually, every video is made by the submitters. t11 doesn't film anything extra or change the videos at all.

PS. HeCtic, I heard somewhere that t11 uses Final Cut. Hope that helps :)

That's kind of lame, because not everybody is a good teacher and not everybody has a good video camera or lighting.
 

Lyle Borders

Elite Member
Aug 5, 2008
1,604
859
Seattle, WA
www.theory11.com
Randy,

If a webcam video of a good, original trick s submitted, it will be approved. The fact that you do the leg work for Wire submissions is part of the reason you get 60% royalty, not somewhere between 15% and 30% from a company that films, edits, and produces your video. It is all a matter of trade-offs. The wire gives people a chance to get their magic seen. If you submit a trick to a company to produce, there is no telling if your trick will ever see the light of day.

Nobody gets something for nothing.

L
 
Sep 7, 2008
608
0
From the companies I've worked with, talked to, and have seen, many offer the same royalties or more than what The Wire is offering. Plus, many companies offer a "buyout" - where they pay you a certain cost upfront and give you a certain amount of product. This is advantageous because it ensures that you will be profitable. And just to clear one note, after working with Paper Crane, the production costs were not what was stated elsewhere.

Question: Are we allowed to sell the download elsewhere, as well? For example, can it be on The Wire and our website? On The Wire and on another production company's website?
 
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That's a good point Prace. Having already experienced producing your own effects before in the past I imagine you probably have a better idea than most of us on the way things are run on the back end. Your question is also a good one as well. Something I hope gets answered soon!
 

Michael Kras

{dg} poet laureate / theory11
Sep 12, 2007
1,268
3
Canada
www.magicanada.myfastforum.org
40% is NOTHING. Most magic companies will give you a MAXIMUM of 50% of your sales... that's the standard. Some places take a whopping 70% of the profits.

I'm just horribly worried about the quality of material that will emerge. While it's an easy way to publish and claim an effect or sleight, there's a reason many magician's creations never see the light of day... in more cases than we'd like to admit, said creations are terrible. Submitting effects to a magic dealer should be more or less like an audition... only the best get the job. At least Theory11's name will not directly be tarnished by these effects, and the people who submit horrible stuff will learn a solid lesson from it in the long run. So, while the lack of quality control is obvious, I think The Wire makes up for it in that it could teach some magicians a bit about humility.
 
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Sep 7, 2008
608
0
40% is NOTHING. Most magic companies will give you a MAXIMUM of 50% of your sales... that's the standard. Some places take a whopping 70% of the profits.

I definitely agree some websites take more than the 40% - and 60% is a great deal. With that said, some companies do offer more.
 
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