Truths outlining the reasons why people think of magic the way they do...

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Mar 12, 2009
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Let me rephrase that...

People think of magic in a certain way, and obviously have ideas and concepts associated with the art. They react in a certain way when they are fooled, they are tricked, they are astounded, they are impressed, they are impressed, etc.

Some people even say they "don't like" magic for a number of reasons, one of them being "because it's just a trick" or "because i don't like being fooled".

I believe that the general opinions/connotations regarding magic are going to drastically change in the next 50 years due to the rate at which our current technologies and sciences have been developing.

You have to bring to attention, first, a couple of reasons why people react the way they do to magic. One of the most influential factors, in my opinion, is RELIGION.

Religion is instilled into you the minute you are born. It is one with your identity. In the most popular and prevalent religions, it is taught that only something called "God" possesses the ability to defy reality. In other words, nobody on this earth can do anything impossible. Remember, this concept was conceived during a time when many things were unexplainable. Simple things such as the moon, the earth, "what is an earth?", what are we? etc. were unanswerable.
I believe that the way people thought of reality at this time was in such a way that could be described by something like:
"I will believe something if I can observe it, in some way, as it transpires. If someone puts a coin in their left hand, closes it, reopens it, and then the coin vanishes, then I would not be able to give you an explanation. Reality is composed of whatever I am able to observe with my senses. Anything that is unexplainable is spiritual and a work of a "God"."

-----Stop right there. Statistics tell us that the general population is mostly religious and in someway will identify themselves with a religion.
That is horrible for us magicians. We are now automatically trying to get someone to believe in something they will refuse to believe. This happens all subconsciously of course, as no one looks at a magician like this and makes these types of conclusions. Instead, they get a certain feeling generated by their prior experiences, thoughts, and knowledge that will then influence their opinion on the art of magic.

As time has progressed and sciences developed, education became more advanced and the general population more informed about the possibilities and impossibilities of this world. People, of course, by logic then started to question the existence of a "God" because religious truths conflicted with scientific truths.

How does any of this relate to magic? Well, it's simple.
Let's describe how the average person in present history thinks about reality:
"I will believe something if there is enough reasonable and conclusive evidence to explain it. Just because I can't observe something with my senses, doesn't mean it isn't there. Radio waves, air, pressure, gravity, etc are things that cannot be observed by my senses. I have no "real" way of knowing whether these things actually exist or not, but because they have not been disproved, I will accept and believe them. If someone takes a coin in their left hand, closes their hand, reopens it, and then the coin has vanished... then i would be immediately able to tell you that either I did not fully observe what happened, or that the explanation includes a method that is not observable."

Think about that.

The whole point of this thread is to discuss what and how "magic" will be defined by in the future.

I feel that as magicians we should start moving away from any explanation of "it's magic" or anything that alludes to things that are "supernatural". There is an innate sense to disregard any claim of the sort. In other words, most people would object to any explanation that is not of this earth. Any educated person would conclude that something happened that they were not aware of, if they had no choice but to answer the question "how do you think the magician accomplished that feat?". no one in their sane mind would conclude that what you did was unexplainable. they would know that there is a way to do it, and by nature, identity, social upbringing, and intelligence, would want to know HOW it was done. Think about why. The idea of being able to do impossible things conflicts with the current way people view the world, in addition to conflicting with many popular beliefs pertaining to religion, science, reality, life, and "what is possible and what is not".

As a result of this often overlooked way of viewing the world, I think we should start preparing the art of magic for a shift in definition. Merriam-Webster defines magic as "an extraordinary power or influence seemingly from a supernatural source". Due to your current knowledge of education and/or religion, anyone can automatically, logically, and reasonably conclude that there is no such thing as magic.

I think that the direction of this new way of defining magic should communicate something like "An art that seeks to entertain by accomplishing feats that are perceived to be impossible. These impossible feats are ONLY made possible by the magician having knowledge of secrets that are well-guarded, kept hidden, and rarely exposed. If the secrets are to be shared at all, then they are only shared with other magicians. These secrets are clever methods of action and/or uniquely created objects. They are slowly discovered by creatively looking at how to accomplish an action that, when carried out in a specific way, is inaccurately perceived, observed, and remembered. In order to make the performance of such actions appear normal and believable, they must be carried out in a natural way that often requires extraordinary amounts of practice or rehearsal. When one is enjoying the performance of magic, they are not experiencing reality. They are experiencing only their perception of reality."



To conclude, I think that magicians need to stop subtly referencing anything that is "impossible", "supernatural", "special powers or abilities", "unexplainable", etc. etc.

I think that it is reasonable enough to now revise the message that magic is supposed to communicate. We are no longer individuals that possess a mystical power. Instead, we are now artists called "Magicians" that possess rare knowledge, impressive skills, uncanny dedication, clever creativity, unique talent, and many other things that, when properly combined, create a piece of art that is experienced and enjoyed by not only all of the senses, but by the mind as well.


I think that this way of defining and explaining magic will change the view of magic to now rightfully attribute to magicians a lot of well-deserved yet-not-given respect, as well as, imply appropriate behavior for a spectator that demonstrates a sense of prestige, compliance, patience, and a will to participate. It will also credit magicians with more creativity and performance skill as well as many other things that will be advantages in regards to the evolution of the art of magic.


What do you guys think? Many of you are probably already starting to perform in a way that communicates ideas similar to what I'm trying to express. I'm not saying I have it right, though I am saying that we currently have it wrong by trying to pass off magic as something that is supernatural or unattainable by anyone else besides a magician. Actually, it is unattainable by someone who isn't a magician, though NOT because they don't possess special powers, but because only magicians are entitled to study such material that will reveal the secret. I think this also creates a much-needed desire to not only want to know "how it's done", but also a courteous obligation to not even ask.


You guys feel me? Any thoughts here?
 
Oct 5, 2008
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Almada, Portugal
Well, I'm gonna tell you that magic as not releted with religion in any form.
I myself I'm a religion guy; I belive in God; and I also belive that magic is about "supernatural powers" and things of that nature.

My describson to magic is simple : Magic is the artform that allow you to see that this world isn't limited as the normal human wold think it is. It allow you to see that is actually possible to make a coin vanish and reappear, usin nothing but your hands ... and a ilusion. Magic is the art of atonishment. Is the art of show things that are hidden in this world, things that are though as impossible, and YOU have the chanse of show them those things.

My sister actually, don't apperciate magic as well as I wish; well, I got to leave with that, some people don't like magic that much, some other don't apperciate basebol, some other perfer Metallica as Slipknot, know what I mean. there is a popular pharse in my country that says: "Tastes should not be discussed". Simple. We cannot force them right ?

Whatever, if you still want to show them some magic that they might apperciate, think this way: magic is aslo used to create a memory, a good memory, in my opinion, phrases/efects like : "I gonna help me out with this" or "Now we gonna switch places, you're going to be the magician and i the spectator", they may should make some difference. From the great words of Aaron Fisher: "We don't like hating, we like participating!".

This is a hard point to touch.

I think we all should learn from our experiences and lifes.

It gonna be diferent for everyone.

hope that helps.

Joel
 
Jul 14, 2008
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Wow, very interesting subject. I do agreed with you that some people accuse magicians as the work of the devil and as a result, they are most likely to avoid. I also agreed with Jot@PS post above; our goal of becoming magicians is to create a wonderful memories for the people so that they like to carry in their lifetime.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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What do you guys think? Many of you are probably already starting to perform in a way that communicates ideas similar to what I'm trying to express.

I think that depends entirely on one question.

Are you asking them to believe or to suspend their disbelief?
 
Apr 21, 2009
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As I talk about this, I have to start by saying that I come from a musical background currently training in college to sing opera. I draw a lot of comparisons, but I think they translate well...

I didn't start doing magic until I was in my first year in college and I personally think I am personally better for it. I have discovered over the past few years that there is so much more to magic than the actual effect. What is comes down to is your own personal character, what material you choose to present and how you present it. In the world of opera, one is constricted greatly by the music on the page to sing, the music going on around you, and the interaction between characters on the stage with you. It is your job as an interpreter of the character to act within the construct of the opera to move the audience to a "place of astonishment" where their sense of reality is suspended temporarily. I believe the same is true with magic, but with much more freedom. Within the art of magic, you can chose how to present yourself and in what venue.

I personally love "street magic" because the world is your stage and you have the ability to help your audience go into that place of suspended reality. I disagree with a few of the responses that you have to accept that some people dislike magic. I think it comes down to how you present it in the moment. I also think that the days of associating magic with religion are long gone unless you want to present your character that way. It comes down to the flexibility of the performer to fit the needs of the audience, not the other way around. My opera director and various vocal coaches have told me all the time, it is not the audience's responsibility to react to you, you have to give them a reason to react. On the same token, you should not push them in a direction with which they are not comfortable. Some people love physical magic (i.e. "gross-out" magic) where the body is manipulated to create situations that seem socially inappropriate or defying the usual functionality of the body while other audiences might love a gambling routine.

I myself try to educate myself in different forms of magic to try and suit those that are around me. When I work with a particular theater group at my school, they hate sleight-heavy coin and card stuff, burning my hands so they can call me out on it, but they love my physical magic like the classic arm turn or "iVanish". In general, I don't present myself as a "magician", but more an unassuming con guy that pokes fun without taking their money.

I just want to close by saying that people love being treated like people. They are not your "spectators" or your "audience" as a collective, they are individuals with individual wants and needs. Fulfilling their needs is what you do as a performer and don't forget it. Whether I be an opera singer, a magician, or a guy that does body work (I practice Reiki and massage), it's all in service to others and all to help others open their eyes to the beautiful world we live in. Take your characters seriously, let them show your magic the way you want it to be shown, but let them serve your audience.
 
Oct 13, 2008
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First of all jmstrings, let me congratulate you on a great idea for a thread, and also the way you put your post together.

You will always find folks that don't like magic. I can't recall now but i remember reading once how if you were to perform magic for a female and her partner were present, the partner would see you as a threat. The reason for this? He wouldn't be able to explain how the effects were done and would feel inferior to the performer. This is not good for the male, for some reason us men should feel superior to all the others out there. So in this situation, the chap would try his best to catch you out, or just declare in a huff that he ' doesnt like magic '.

Of course it's not nice to be fooled, especially in front of people.

I do think however, that you're thinking is a bit turned around in some places. I think more people are saying they don't believe in a ' God ' now simply because they CAN'T see, feel or hear it.
Also, the people who believe in God have to believe in the supernatural. By definition.
God is a supernatural being. I always find those that believe in God also believe in Ghosts, lucky charms, angels, ouija boards, the whole she-bang. And its these people that are going to be more taken in by your magic. They already believe that the impossible is possible by believing in that stuff. Incidentally, they're also a lot easier to hypnotise than atheists. So its not horrible for magi if people believe in that stuff, on the contrary its a good thing.

As a child i was fascinated by the only magic show on English television, The Paul Daniels Magic Show. He's a great magician, but there were very few close up effects, it was mainly sawing people in half and disappearing ladies. Then i saw David Blaine. Now, you have to believe i was a grown man at the time, and i STILL thought he had some kind of power. Honestly and seriously. I could see no way to explain those things, especially the thought of cards and numbers. I know better now, thanks Banachek, but it's always important for me to think back to that time, and to think that despite my knowledge of the world and my cold and logical approach to things, he still made me believe the impossible was possible.

This is where a lot of magicians forget themselves. They give the spectator too much credit.
Take an effect like Stigmata. It blows my spectators away when i perform it. Why? Because its not sleight of hand to them. It's magic. It defies explanation. Utmost respect to Dan and Dave, their skills are formidable, but when i watch them perform a trick i know it's sleight of hand. Brilliant sleight of hand, but sleight of hand nonetheless. Our task, if we really want people to believe in magic, is to perform tricks that aren't and couldn't possibly be. These are the effects that defy explanation. David Blaine often says this, but he stole it from Paul Harris, that the idea is to get people back to the child like state of wonder at the world. That's what our job is, to make people look at the world through fresh eyes. Maybe they dont know it all. Maybe it isnt all set in stone. Maybe this guy can make a coin disappear.

Mentalism is a branch of magic that laymen find hard to explain. That's the way im heading simply for that reason. I love card tricks, especially self working ones which reminds me.....I've had some serious reactions, really seriously freaked out people, just from performing Out Of This World. It's all how you present it. I once had a man stare at me for a good 10 to 15 seconds after that trick in silence, he then backed away saying simply ' I dont like that '.
It wasnt the effect he didnt like, it was the fact that the impossible had just happened in front of his eyes and he couldnt deal with it.

It'll be a sad day if magicians are simply seen as entertainers or worse yet, con artists. We have to give people that feeling of awe and wonderment, its our job. The fact that it's getting harder to do so is even better. Bring it on!
 
Sep 9, 2007
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while you all make good points, I think the biggest reason why some spectators are difficult is because their perception of magic as formed by other performers. If someone likes to watch, it's probably because they watched a good performance in which the performer was able to create a connection.

Case in point - Jeff McBride - great guy technically, but he creeps me out. I don't know why, but he just does. But he has an audience, and when he connects with them, it works. I'm just not part of that audience. And if I had watched only Jeff McBride a few times and nothing else, I probably wouldn't be here right now.

So regardless of religion, deception or anything else, I think the real point that determines the compliance of a spec is the performer. I know I've wowed people that at the start of my performance thought Magic was weird, stupid or childish, and I'm sure other people on here would agree.
 
Oct 13, 2008
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It can certainly taken as stupid but definitely as childish. There's numerous magic sets out there targeting children, and sadly they depict the too tired rabbit out of hat illusion. Of course nothing of the sort lies within, it's just a cliched perception of magic.

I call it ' The Favourite Uncle Syndrome ', whereby at family gatherings there's always a member of the family you don't see very often, usually an uncle, who knows one or two card tricks and tries to impress the kids with them. This kind of thing also gives magic a bad name, since you equate card tricks with that situation and that person. The spec wants to believe they've grown out of that stuff now, and are intellectually above any such nonsense.
 
Sep 2, 2007
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I would like to drop my two cents in here as well.

first of all, I don't agree with the religion is bad for magic thing. I'm religious yet I still do 'magic' but that is not what this converation is about.

Honestly, I don't find that people aren't willing to watch because of thier religion especially in many cases where people go outright and say that they can't do real magic, or atleast imply that they can't. I find that saying you can do real magic/really read minds gets rid of limitations and gets people to start asking how you do it, and saying "Magic!" is not going to cut it for them. But if you make them believe you have "real" powers, and then you can;t do something your caught up in a lie and have to BS your way out. I (personally) usually keep my mouth shut about how I do something and let them open up rhier own assumptions on how it's done but if they ask I simply say something along the lines of; lots of practice.

I believe that those who don't want to see magic either; don't like magic, not in the mood, had a bad experience etc. and that religion doesn't factor into it.

I perform for those that are religious, or associate themselves with a religion, quite frequently and that doesn;t stop them from enjoying themselves


P.S.;
Grimshaw I found your post a bit offensive, saying that "those that believe in God also believe in Ghosts, lucky charms, angels, ouija boards, the whole she-bang." a bit offensive. I'm religious, and so are most of my friends, and none of us believe in Ghosts, oija boards, lucky charms etc. (lcuky charms, IMO is just placebo.)
 
Mar 12, 2009
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First of all jmstrings, let me congratulate you on a great idea for a thread, and also the way you put your post together.

You will always find folks that don't like magic. I can't recall now but i remember reading once how if you were to perform magic for a female and her partner were present, the partner would see you as a threat. The reason for this? He wouldn't be able to explain how the effects were done and would feel inferior to the performer. This is not good for the male, for some reason us men should feel superior to all the others out there. So in this situation, the chap would try his best to catch you out, or just declare in a huff that he ' doesnt like magic '.

Of course it's not nice to be fooled, especially in front of people.
Absolutely. In my first post, I was merely saying that there are people who exist that have at one point said they "don't like magic." My personal belief is one that states that if you dislike magic, then you are not a very social person. The one condition that makes this appealing to me, is that pretty much everybody will say that they are a social person. If they didn't, you probably wouldn't want to be talking to them anyways. Magic, in my eyes, is a method used to connect with/to people with not only yourself as the magician, but other people as well. The act of getting random people together and socializing is made smooth, and without risk of any awkwardness or embarrassment. This is done through the magician. When the act is over and the magician leaves, the spectator has nothing left but a memory. That memory is, when simplified, would be categorized under "social interaction". Being the life of the party (which is a role that the magician fills) and being the one responsible for getting a group of random people into an interaction makes you look not only like the best magician they've ever seen, but as someone who they would without question WANT to have around and perform.

I'll simplify it. This is how it works for me. Me being a 19 year old college student:
-It's friday or saturday night. I go to an open house party. People are getting ****ed up and having a good time. People are socializing and wanting to meet new people and talk to them without being disliked. I walk into a group of 3 girls and 2 guys. I'm still myself, not yet performing any magic. Skip to the part where I'm now performing a routine. I'm now attracting lots of attention. There's a large audience now, no longer a small group. I'm grabbing people as they walk by and getting them involved in the action, making THEM the center of focus. They get involved. I use my charm and charisma via the art of magic to make them look like the coolest guy in the room, who everyone is watching and paying attention to. I complete a routine. I transition into something else, while then making this new, next guy the coolest guy in the room. All the women in the audience at this point realize that I have the ability to make anyone or anything in the room, of my choice, the center of attention. Put simply, I'm clearly a leader and I've actively shown them at this point that people do what I say.
I'm not gonna go any further, but at this point, you'd most certainly realize that the art of magic exceeds the art of music in its ability to drop panties. Love songs don't even compare to the memories and experiences created by a polished and interesting magic routine.

I do think however, that you're thinking is a bit turned around in some places. I think more people are saying they don't believe in a ' God ' now simply because they CAN'T see, feel or hear it.
Also, the people who believe in God have to believe in the supernatural. By definition.
God is a supernatural being. I always find those that believe in God also believe in Ghosts, lucky charms, angels, ouija boards, the whole she-bang. And its these people that are going to be more taken in by your magic. They already believe that the impossible is possible by believing in that stuff. Incidentally, they're also a lot easier to hypnotise than atheists. So its not horrible for magi if people believe in that stuff, on the contrary its a good thing.
That's where your thinking is flawed. People who are religious and that believe in a "God" are absolutely by logic believers in the supernatural. However, they believe that only a "God" can use, understand, and demonstrate supernatural acts. They would therefore then have to attribute to you as a work of a "God", which they won't, and will therefore conclude that it is a trick of some sort and that deception is involved. Again, any way you look at it, every person with an education in either science and/or religion (the two types of education) will logically conclude what your are doing is not real, which is genuinely correct. This is why I ask the question, why not just be up front about it?
[/quote]

As a child i was fascinated by the only magic show on English television, The Paul Daniels Magic Show. He's a great magician, but there were very few close up effects, it was mainly sawing people in half and disappearing ladies. Then i saw David Blaine. Now, you have to believe i was a grown man at the time, and i STILL thought he had some kind of power. Honestly and seriously. I could see no way to explain those things, especially the thought of cards and numbers. I know better now, thanks Banachek, but it's always important for me to think back to that time, and to think that despite my knowledge of the world and my cold and logical approach to things, he still made me believe the impossible was possible.

My good sir, you have just solidified my point. You interpretation of it was incorrect. You say he made you believe the impossible was possible. That is EXACTLY what I have been saying. He made you believe that there was a way to do it. Doing things that are of a supernatural nature are things that are impossible. This is why I say be up front about it in a vague and creative way. The theme at hand is deception. If you're a good conversationalist, like myself, then the best way to get people emotionally invested in what you're doing is by relating to an experience they've had with anything that involved deception. Maybe they've been scammed in poker before. Maybe their identity was stolen. Maybe their business or house was robbed. Etc, etc, etc, etc.
This is where a lot of magicians forget themselves. They give the spectator too much credit.
Take an effect like Stigmata. It blows my spectators away when i perform it. Why? Because its not sleight of hand to them. It's magic. It defies explanation. Utmost respect to Dan and Dave, their skills are formidable, but when i watch them perform a trick i know it's sleight of hand. Brilliant sleight of hand, but sleight of hand nonetheless. Our task, if we really want people to believe in magic, is to perform tricks that aren't and couldn't possibly be. These are the effects that defy explanation. David Blaine often says this, but he stole it from Paul Harris, that the idea is to get people back to the child like state of wonder at the world. That's what our job is, to make people look at the world through fresh eyes. Maybe they dont know it all. Maybe it isnt all set in stone. Maybe this guy can make a coin disappear.
I agree with that, however I have a modification. As you said, I also believe that you should get people to a mental frame that "they maybe don't know it all", however you have to do so in such a way that isn't directly telling them that. And also, you have to demonstrate this by doing things that have a logical explanation to them. If you do a double lift and show a card, turn it over, then say it will change again as you turn it over, then it is clearly just two cards. Any clever/intelligent person will figure that out. You have to have a logical reason backing every action you do, including a logical explanation for how it happened, in order to make an entertaining and beautiful piece of art that will give them that sense of "not really knowing" how everything on this earth works.
Mentalism is a branch of magic that laymen find hard to explain. That's the way im heading simply for that reason. I love card tricks, especially self working ones which reminds me.....I've had some serious reactions, really seriously freaked out people, just from performing Out Of This World. It's all how you present it. I once had a man stare at me for a good 10 to 15 seconds after that trick in silence, he then backed away saying simply ' I dont like that '.
It wasnt the effect he didnt like, it was the fact that the impossible had just happened in front of his eyes and he couldnt deal with it.

It'll be a sad day if magicians are simply seen as entertainers or worse yet, con artists. We have to give people that feeling of awe and wonderment, its our job. The fact that it's getting harder to do so is even better. Bring it on!

I disagree with you there, man. Simply because as I said, everyone knows that what we do are things that can be done the way we present them, and not any other way. If you could really levitate, or vanish coins, or change five 1's into five 100's, then do you really think that you'd be standing there performing? HELL NO. You'd be using your "abilities" for either your own self gain, helping others, controlling people, and/or simply just doing something that will make someone or something else better off.
 
Mar 12, 2009
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I would like to drop my two cents in here as well.

first of all, I don't agree with the religion is bad for magic thing. I'm religious yet I still do 'magic' but that is not what this converation is about.


I think it's funny that you said that. I'm not going to bother to comment on the rest of your post, only because I know rightfully find it invalid.

Your religion, whatever it may be, states that only a "God" can do the things that you perform for people. That's a huge contradiction right there. You, by statement of your bible, are convincing other people that you are doing what your bible states as works of a "God".

I don't really think this thread should go in this direction, because this discussion will never end and no one will admit they are incorrect because they will feel that they are in fact correct.

However, I had to throw that out there. And I do have to ask you, how do you justify showing other people things that are supernatural in nature when only one specific being can do so?

And since you find grimshaw's post offensive, which by logic you cant, I have to tell you that since you're a magician and don't believe in lucky charms, that you HAVE to believe, by sound reasoning and logic, that anything of the supernatural sort whether it be a "God" or spirit, does not exist either. You could right now try to explain to me how you can justify the belief in one and not the other, but I'll tell you now that it cannot be done. You have to either believe in both, or believe in none.
 
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Sep 9, 2007
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Your religion, whatever it may be, states that only a "God" can do the things that you perform for people. That's a huge contradiction right there. You, by statement of your bible, are convincing other people that you are doing what your bible states as works of a "God".

You have a common misperception about religion. Nowhere does it explicitly say that. What most religions DO say is that performing miracles and claiming them to be "powers given to you from God" or claiming that you ARE some sort of God/have magical powers are blasphemous.

It's not the performance, but how you frame it.
 
Mar 12, 2009
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You have a common misperception about religion. Nowhere does it explicitly say that. What most religions DO say is that performing miracles and claiming them to be "powers given to you from God" or claiming that you ARE some sort of God/have magical powers are blasphemous.

It's not the performance, but how you frame it.

And here's why you're wrong...

You perform miracles in the eyes of spectators. You are not claiming to be "God", however by logic of your bible you are. You have just performed a miracle. "God" is the overseer and creator of the universe and, and if so, only "God" is able to perform miracles in the universe "he" created, since he is the overseer. Any miracle is a work of "God", something that "God" wanted to happen. Since humans cannot perform miracles, there is no other answer other than you have to be "God".
 
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Sep 9, 2007
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...there is no other answer other than you have to be "God".

wrong again. Other excuses can include something like "the hand is quicker than the eye", "it's all in your mind" or even a lack of explanation. A lack of explanation doesn't necessarily imply anything other than that you're just not telling how you did it.

All because something LOOKS like a miracle, doesn't mean it IS a miracle. Make that clear and you'll be fine.
 
Mar 12, 2009
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wrong again. Other excuses can include something like "the hand is quicker than the eye", "it's all in your mind" or even a lack of explanation. A lack of explanation doesn't necessarily imply anything other than that you're just not telling how you did it.

All because something LOOKS like a miracle, doesn't mean it IS a miracle. Make that clear and you'll be fine.

And this is a circular argument, and also why you are wrong.


The only reason you can tell me "the hand is quicker than the eye" or that it's a "mind trick" is because you have knowledge of such things. If these explanations did not exist FOR EXAMPLE, DURING THE TIME PERIOD WHEN JESUS TURNED WATER INTO WINE, you would have no other option than to attribute it to a miracle. You can't say no, because there is nothing of this earth that you know of that can do such a thing or even possibly explain it.

That is why if I now tried to tell you I was sent here by "God", you would think I was a crazy person because we have knowledge of mental diseases, among magical illusions, and other things... even having the knowledge of the word "illusion" and what that is.


If I told you 75 years ago that I could create sound from a piece of metal (AN IPOD), and showed you an ipod (WHICH IS A BIG PIECE OF METAL AMONG OTHER MATERIALS) you would call that a miracle as well. And if you believed that I was able to do this only because you simply just believe it, you would feel very stupid 75 years later when knowledge was acquired that allows me to do such a thing.
 
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Oct 13, 2008
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Can i please just make it clear i was out to offend no-one. There were other parts to my initial post that i deleted for fear of offending anyone. Obviously i wasn't thorough enough in my editing.

I was once told never to discuss religion or politics with people for fear of causing an argument. This is sound advice. I appreciate how people cling to their beliefs both in times of turmoil and also for every day life.

Im linked to Chris Kenner on facebook and recently he posted something about God not existing. He then posted a bit later saying it looks like he's upset half the internet by the look of his inbox. Or some such thing, i dont remember it exactly. This is how upset people can get when you comment on their religious beliefs.

I didnt go that far, my beliefs are my own and yours are your own and i wont shove mine down anyone's throat.

jmstrings has already said what i was going to say, which is if you believe in one supernatural being, you have to believe in all of them. It has to be black and white, there's no room for grey. If you wish to talk or argue this point Dizzi, might i suggest we do it through the medium of private messages rather than on the board for fear of a ticking off, or even worse, a banning from the moderators.

I again apologise if i offended anyone, and now i'll re-read jm's response to my post and comment on that. In an in-offensive manner if possible ;-)
 
Sep 9, 2007
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And this is a circular argument, and also why you are wrong.


The only reason you can tell me "the hand is quicker than the eye" or that it's a "mind trick" is because you have knowledge of such things. If these explanations did not exist FOR EXAMPLE, DURING THE TIME PERIOD WHEN JESUS TURNED WATER INTO WINE, you would have no other option than to attribute it to a miracle. You can't say no, because there is nothing of this earth that you know of that can do such a thing or even possibly explain it.

That is why if I now tried to tell you I was sent here by "God", you would think I was a crazy person because we have knowledge of mental diseases, among magical illusions, and other things... even having the knowledge of the word "illusion" and what that is.


If I told you 75 years ago that I could create sound from a piece of metal (AN IPOD), and showed you an ipod (WHICH IS A BIG PIECE OF METAL AMONG OTHER MATERIALS) you would call that a miracle as well. And if you believed that I was able to do this only because you simply just believe it, you would feel very stupid 75 years later when knowledge was acquired that allows me to do such a thing.

firstly, my arguement isn't "circular". I get what you mean by that, but semantically that is not correct. A circular argument is something like "it's wrong because it's wrong"

secondly, what you're saying implies that people can't both be intelligent and believe in the possiblility that SOME things cannot be explained. It is indeed possible to believe that some things that were miracles can be explained, while still believing that miracles are possible.

both of your analogies are faulty. Consider for a second that Jesus was real (I'm not saying you have to actually believe it, but enter this arguement with the premise that it's possible that he was). Is it not possible to believe that he actually DID turn water into wine, even though it is possible to create an effect (if not many) that would replicate the result.

Ditto for the iPod analogy - all because people couldn't imagine how it was done, doesn't make the device miraculous. It just means they did not have the intellect to understand how it was possible. Again, that says nothing about the human ability to simultaneously believe in miracles and understand trickery through scientific principle.

My point is not to argue the existence of miracles, it's to argue that religion is only a barrier to presentation if you see it as such, and don't take appropriate actions to avoid any objections. Salespeople know this. When someone says they don't want something because of X reason, the problem is not X reason, the problem is how you presented the product without avoiding an X reason objection.

That, and you were factually incorrect. To my knowledge, no religion explicitly bans the practice and performance of illusions - they ban blasphemous presentations of it. Despite what you may think, there IS a difference.
 
Mar 12, 2009
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See, here's the thing. I am not telling anyone that they are right or wrong to believe in their Religion.

I'm simply disproving the staples of why they believe in the religion.


It comes down to this:
-You listen to and believe in "God" because of what's written in the bible.
-You believe what's written in the bible to be true simply because you want to.

Most people will then tell me that they beleive what's written in the bible to be true because it is the work of God, or htat because if they don't they will go to Hell.

And again, it comes down to that their answer is their answer because of what's written in the bible and no other reason. They believe in the bible because they do. There's no reasoning.
 
Sep 2, 2007
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JMstrings; I PM'd you

Grimshaw; thank you for your kindness. I'm, oddlly, not offended when people bash religion etc. But if someone says something baout religion as a whole believing in ouija bopards etc. then I feel that I must make my voice heard (mis-informed) not for fact of telling them they're wrong, but so that they are better informed.

this will be my last poist in this topic I, along with others here, are not going to change thier opinions based off of someone elses thoughts on a forum.
 
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