Plagiarising Wayne Houchin

Sep 20, 2008
1,112
3
Hey guys, been a while.

I happened to stumble onto this youtube page (through those damn youtube skippables.) and found a tutorial called 'Sealed with a kiss'. Curious- watched the entire tutorial until i realised i've seen (and performed) this effect before.


Scrolled to the information section and he credits Dynamo as opposed to Wayne Houcheymama, who published this effect years and years ago, when floppy disks still existed.

Anyway, in all seriousness- isnt this a form of plagiarism? He's also revealing the effect. I can understand tutorials on double lifts, Two card monte and other common effects but this is a bit far- this is actually a published effect.

Anyway, link below.

[link removed by moderator]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

j.bayme

ceo / theory11
Team member
Jul 23, 2007
2,848
352
New York City
Hey Sinful, you're correct that this is an effect conceived and popularized by Wayne Houchin, and as such, it's unethical and improper for anyone else to expose or teach it... it's not theirs to teach. As a creator and a performer, Wayne's livelihood depends on what he creates, this effect included, so it's disappointing to see it (or any effect) exposed without permission. Simply put, it's wrong.

Out of respect for Wayne, I've removed the direct link in your post to avoid giving this exposure any more attention than it deserves.
 
Sep 20, 2008
1,112
3
Hey!

Not a problem- that makes a lot of sense actually. Is there some sort of action we can take? as you said its his livelihood that's being affected. and he isnt even crediting him so that's pretty unfair.

Any actions we can take?
 
Sep 1, 2013
305
15
South Africa
What about the vanishing handkerchief? That is a golden effect but it's taught in every corner of the internet. With respects to it's original creator, is that not plagiarism too? These amazing effects are slowly going to stand as beginner magic on YouTube. If we stand for one effect, we should stand for all. In my eyes there is nothing we can do to stop this as there are thousands of incompetent people who strive to expose magic, I can guarantee that in my lifetime of being a magician, I will not be alive when we see the end of magic exposure.
 
Feb 18, 2014
146
0
Hey!

Not a problem- that makes a lot of sense actually. Is there some sort of action we can take? as you said its his livelihood that's being affected. and he isnt even crediting him so that's pretty unfair.

Any actions we can take?

Unfortunately no, you can't really stop some kid revealing a trick on youtube with his teaching. The only time you can stop it is if he is giving the exact video ( the download)... sadly :/
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
What about the vanishing handkerchief? That is a golden effect but it's taught in every corner of the internet. With respects to it's original creator, is that not plagiarism too? These amazing effects are slowly going to stand as beginner magic on YouTube. If we stand for one effect, we should stand for all. In my eyes there is nothing we can do to stop this as there are thousands of incompetent people who strive to expose magic, I can guarantee that in my lifetime of being a magician, I will not be alive when we see the end of magic exposure.

There's a massive difference between the Vanishing Handkerchief and a currently marketed effect. The Vanishing Handkerchief is really old and the person who originally invented it is dead. Wayne Houchin is alive and kicking. Effects currently on the market are different to those that have fallen into the public domain.
 
May 6, 2013
148
5
www.Ibimania.com
What about the vanishing handkerchief? That is a golden effect but it's taught in every corner of the internet. With respects to it's original creator, is that not plagiarism too? These amazing effects are slowly going to stand as beginner magic on YouTube. If we stand for one effect, we should stand for all. In my eyes there is nothing we can do to stop this as there are thousands of incompetent people who strive to expose magic, I can guarantee that in my lifetime of being a magician, I will not be alive when we see the end of magic exposure.

Please realise the difference between public domain effects/moves and the ones not in public domain.
Effects in public domain are:
:: The original creator being dead and his family not making any money off his original creation.
:: Effect that the creator of is not known.
:: Effect willingly given out in public domain by magician himself. (This is very rare with commercial creators but it happens on local levels).

Ofcourse even then the original creator should be created unless, it is the type of effect with the creator unknown.
 
Dec 18, 2007
1,610
14
64
Northampton, MA - USA
We could take the whole Vanishing hank/silk in another direction as well in that there are at least a dozen ways of executing such a "primitive" and "elementary" effect. Jay Scott Berry used to do it with fog coming out of his hands as part of the vanish; the method was super simple and found in most magic kits of the day (no TT though that is another method). I'm certain there are one or two methods on the market right now that are "current" and thus, not legally or ethically proper to expose.

The problem is, no one is interested in learning the Vanishing Hank they want the most recently seen bit performed by one of the Talking Heads on TV and they want it because of how cool it will make them look. . . rather than investing in magic that they can personalize and make their own and so, making them one of the guys everyone imitates and follows. THAT is what makes most of these guys unique and why we seek to emulate them. Or, as in this case, expose their secrets so we can look cockier than they tend to be.
 
May 21, 2014
127
6
Staunton, VA
Personally, I think Youtube can be a useful and ethical resource for learning and sharing magic. Youtube isn't television, where the viewer is passive and gets messages blared at them dependent on what channel they watch. It's more like a library where people seek the information they want, and in that sense it's probably the biggest visual how-to library in history. For visual and kinetic learners, that's REALLY valuable. I also don't concern myself that much with exposure to laymen. Everyone will enjoy magic in their own way, whether it's watching for the fun and wonder of not knowing, learning so they can astound others, or (sadly) learning the secret just so they know it. Some performers deliberately expose their effects to the public because the method can be just as interesting and entertaining as the effect (Penn and Teller's Truck Trick and American Cups and Balls are both great examples of this kind of performing).

What I DO care about is stealing money from people's wallets, and when someone teaches a commercial effect on Youtube or anywhere else, that's exactly what they're doing. If an effect's creator or his beneficiaries are gaining from or even just actively performing an effect, it's morally wrong to share that person's secrets without their permission or to perform it without paying for the information. Unfortunately there's no legal way to protect a secret the way magicians would like to, so there's little we can do about it unless they rip an actual dvd and put it online.
 
Apr 17, 2013
885
4
Why youtube isn't a library. I have never gone to a library only to find some books about the Cincinnati Reds blank because some arbitrary bot came in claiming copyright on everything with the words Reds and Cincinnati. even if the book had the rights to write about the team. The library does not have blank books on birds because a record company claimed that the bird singing in the background was copyrighted music. Also when you go to the library you do not have trolls grabbing a book yelling first or trying to tell me how fat my mother is or how I like to have relations with people of the same sex. If you go to the library to do research on a local bakery, you do not have the librarian coming up with three different books on how to bake the cake that made the bakery famous. You go to youtube and to show a coworker that cool trick you saw Eric Jones do, and there are five videos right next to it showing how it is done. You check out that one book on a bakery and that's the end. Look up one magic video on youtube and they keep saying here watch these video, where most of them are how to videos not performances.

It might be a how to library but it's not all quality stuff. Any twelve year old with a webcam can make a video and post it. There is no filter for good or bad. It is everyone who wants to make a video can. So you are shotgunning crap at a wall and well there is a ton of crap stuck to the youtube wall. You want to learn a really good magic trick, why go to youtube? Know what you find on youtube? Fourteen year olds who just got the latest thing off the wire trying to teach it begging for likes and subs. The only reason they are showing how it's done is to get subs and likes. They can't talk to real people. That is why when they get something that cost more than $10 they won't expose they use the title of something killer with the words exposed only to say they aren't going to show it, they just want you to like and sub.

There is this odd school of thought from magicians of old where they really didn't share their work with the masses. Professor Diaconis has been quoted about why he did not publish his methods: "Why give tools to the animals?", meaning we don't have to share everything and what we do share we should pick and choose with whom we share them with. I have many effects that are real worker that I have been doing for 15 to 20 years and I have only shared them with a few people, one is on this forum. The less you share with the masses the less of a chance it ends up on youtube.

Also the growing number of people under 30 need to learn that not everything should be free on the internet.
 
Jan 1, 2009
2,241
3
Back in Time
Youtube can be good and bad. Personally, I see it two ways. It's fine if you put up a video of yourself performing something that requires skill and technique. Such as when Pop Hayden puts up videos, he knows most his stuff doesn't require gimmicks or something that any 12 year old on youtube would be able to "expose". Yet, he also publishes a good majority of his routines.

The main issue with youtube isn't the 12 year old's who expose things to be cool. It's how the entire system works that is the problem. Youtube cracks down hard on people for minor things, yet it's so easy to find literally anything on that site. Soft porn? You got it. Full illegal movies? Yup. The entire system is flawed and is just a complete contradiction of itself and it's own policies.

As for comparing it to the library.. No, it doesn't work like a library. When I go to the library I don't get bombarded with people making idiotic comments in the books or other such things.
 
May 21, 2014
127
6
Staunton, VA
I can see you're one of those humans that embraces technicality.

Historically speaking, books have been removed and/or banned from libraries for various reasons on a pretty regular basis, actually. Furthermore, not every book in a library is actually any good, especially when it comes to how-to and DIY books. Sometimes you have to go to different libraries and sort through books for a while before you come up with anything you can actually use.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that Youtube is more like a library than it is like TV. Yes there's a lot of crap out there, yes videos vanish all the time, and yes the magic community needs to voluntarily police themselves and each other to reduce exposure, poor performances, and poor teaching. That doesn't change the fact that if you know what you're looking for and you keep your ethics in tact, Youtube can be a great place to learn some magic just like the local library can. I think we all agree that some of the magic on youtube is garbage, but that doesn't mean that all of it is. I also don't understand why we're now arguing about whether Youtube is or is not a library because that's completely beside the point of this thread.
 
Apr 17, 2013
885
4
I can see you're one of those humans that embraces technicality.

I follow the code of ethics that I signed up for when I joined the IBM and SAM. Think that there is no harm in exposing magic on youtube? There is someone on this forum who can tell you the price you can pay for that.

From the IBM...
Article II
MISSION AND OBJECTIVES
Sec. 1.The mission of the organization shall be to promote fellowship and the advancement of
magic as an entertainment art through premier publications, quality conventions, an international
structure and progressive leadership.
Sec. 2.To accomplish this mission, the following objectives are established:
A. Organize and associate those interested in the art of magic and its advancement
without regard to race, color, religion, sex, or national origin;
B. Advance the ethics of the magical fraternity by adopting a Code of Ethics;
C. Publish a magazine;
D. Hold an Annual Convention;
E. Encourage humane treatment of animals used in magic presentations;
F. Oppose public exposures of the principles of the art of magic; and
G. Protect the magic creations of authors and inventors.


From the SAM...

All members of the Society of American Magicians agree to:

1. Oppose the willful exposure to the public of any principles of the Art of Magic, or the methods employed in any magic effect or illusion.
2. Display ethical behavior in the presentation of magic to the public and in our conduct as magicians, including not interfering with or jeopardizing the performance of another magician either through personal intervention or the unauthorized use of another?s creation.

3. Recognize and respect for rights of the creators, inventors, authors, and owners of magic concepts, presentations, effects and literature, and their rights to have exclusive use of, or to grant permission for the use by others of such creations.
4. Discourage false or misleading statements in the advertising of effects, and literature, merchandise or actions pertaining to the magical arts.
5. Discourage advertisement in magic publications for any magical apparatus, effect, literature or other materials for which the advertiser does not have commercial rights.
6. Promote the humane treatment and care of livestock used in magical performances.

The Magic Circle, the Magic Castle, TAOM, and well pretty much every magic club in the world has the same rules. Part of being a magician is keeping the secrete not sharing it with the world on youtube.

Know why I do not have to go to different libraries to find the books I need? There is thing called the internet. I go onto the Harris County Library website find what I need and have it sent over.

You are the one who brought up the library metaphor. I'm pointing out that youtube is not a library or better than a library. Youtube is Mos Eisley Spaceport. Look at the guys on there. Even the better produced ones. They are exposing magic they did not create. They use the names of well known guys like David Blaine to get hit. They do this to get likes and subs. The more subs they have the more views they get the more ad revenue they get from people who are not smart enough to run ad block. TO keep your ethics intact you shouldn't be learning magic from an open public forum. This message board is just as open as youtube but no methods are taught here. Know why? Let me give you a hint... OPEN PUBLIC FORUM.

Now before you say "Krab they are teaching things from books where the creator is dead." Thank to this small company yuou might have heard of named Disney, copyrights never run out. You might think well you can't copyright an effect only the patter and choreography. This is true, but people still own the publishing rights to these effects since they are in books. The family might still even get money from them. Any exposure in an open public forum is bad. That is why IBM and SAM groups will not do teaching time when there is a non-magician guest at the meeting that night.

People need to understand that not everything should be out there and that it should be free. They need to learn that magic is in a bad way right now thanks to the internet. Anyone with a webcam can put up crappy videos. Anyone with a book test can expose effects that working magicians still do. If you want to come up with something new and original and expose it on youtube, fine knock yourself out. Do not tell us how great youtube is and how it is okay to learn some things from it when there should be no exposure on youtube of effects you did not create.
 
May 21, 2014
127
6
Staunton, VA
'Shwood, back me up here: http://youtu.be/fwQJXgQaHiM

The groups you've described definitely oppose exposure, but they've also ALL addressed the difference between teaching and exposure. Some people are exposing magic on Youtube, but some people are teaching it. Even if you're teaching and not exposing, however, it's still unethical to teach (or especially expose) a trick that does not belong to you. That being said...

Oh look, Michael Ammar is teaching magic on youtube! http://youtu.be/F8MT1XkOVxg
Oh look, he's doing it again! http://youtu.be/Yv4wG-lG2Yc
And again... http://youtu.be/W1KZvsqvK3Y
Oh no, now Rich Ferguson's doing it! http://youtu.be/haYBNSWBrDo
Stop it, Rich! http://youtu.be/-yKbnfyMLTY
How could you do this to the magic community?! http://youtu.be/a3pZiLYp1Uw

Why would these well-known, professional performers with commercial effects on the market EVER get on youtube and show someone how to do a magic trick? Answer: they're teaching, not exposing. There's a legitimate difference, and teaching is not unethical according to any of the codes you just cited, even if it happens on youtube.
 
Apr 17, 2013
885
4
'Shwood, back me up here: http://youtu.be/fwQJXgQaHiM

The groups you've described definitely oppose exposure, but they've also ALL addressed the difference between teaching and exposure. Some people are exposing magic on Youtube, but some people are teaching it. Even if you're teaching and not exposing, however, it's still unethical to teach (or especially expose) a trick that does not belong to you. That being said...

Oh look, Michael Ammar is teaching magic on youtube! http://youtu.be/F8MT1XkOVxg
Oh look, he's doing it again! http://youtu.be/Yv4wG-lG2Yc
And again... http://youtu.be/W1KZvsqvK3Y
Oh no, now Rich Ferguson's doing it! http://youtu.be/haYBNSWBrDo
Stop it, Rich! http://youtu.be/-yKbnfyMLTY
How could you do this to the magic community?! http://youtu.be/a3pZiLYp1Uw

Why would these well-known, professional performers with commercial effects on the market EVER get on youtube and show someone how to do a magic trick? Answer: they're teaching, not exposing. There's a legitimate difference, and teaching is not unethical according to any of the codes you just cited, even if it happens on youtube.

You do know I said teach the things you create. Even though Ammar did not create CMH. Know why they are exposing? To get people to buy their stuff. They are not teaching they are trying to make money. Exposing is teaching in an open public forum. Youtube is an open public forum. Do you have to pay to get on youtube? Is the magic behind a paywall if the magic in an area where you have to show you are a magician? No? Then it is an open forum. OPEN FORUM I type that last one slow just for you. Bushwood tried to defend his exposure but it is still exposing things he did not create in the name of making money and selling his book test.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
May 21, 2014
127
6
Staunton, VA
Do you have to pay or prove you're a magician to walk into a library and open a library card? Not near me, you don't. They're open and free to the public. Are there magic books in libraries? Usually. The first magic books I checked out were in my elementary school library and they were old as dirt. I didn't have to pay for that information, and nobody made sure I was a magician before I was allowed to have it. I still had to go looking for it, but that was all, and if it hadn't been for those books I might not have started magic at all, and if I had it might not have been as young, cutting years off of my time to practice. That free information was integral to my start in magic, and even though I fumbled through most of those routines with my tiny fingers and my friends could easily check out the same books and foil all my tricks, I still consider that time integral to my experience in the craft. Kids today are doing basically the same thing, just on the internet. I just don't feel threatened by that at all.

As for IBM, I've visited my local ring twice (once years ago and once at their last meeting). I intend to go back again, and eventually I'd like to join. In my experience they allow visitors to come a few times without paying, signing or swearing anything, or performing any magic. For all they know, everyone who does that and doesn't come back was a layman who just wanted to know some magic secrets for some reason. I found the information for when and where they met on the internet for free. I have performed both of the times I've gone because I love it, but it was strictly on a voluntary basis. The times I did perform, I didn't expose anything I didn't create. Incidentally, I performed Wayne Houchin's A Single Needle the last time I went and directed them toward the DVD rather than teach Wayne's handling of the effect, even though the East Indian Needle Mystery is a very old effect. I also performed Justin Miller's Cell Break and did the same thing; I pointed them to the retailer rather than expose it. I did spend a lot of time, however, teaching a little kid to do some card and rubber band magic that I learned when I was close to his age.

Personally, I don't really teach or expose magic to laymen on the internet or otherwise, with the exception of teaching a kid my handling of the key card trick every so often, usually when they try to show it to me by pointing the key card at the ceiling and then rifling through the deck to find the card. I figure if they took the time to learn the key card principle, I can at least teach them a proper handling and presentation.

My bottom line is that many magicians, even experienced professionals, have varying opinions and interpretations about the ethical lines between teaching and exposure. While I don't personally expose or teach magic to laymen, I don't make much personal effort to stop others from doing it because I only have control over myself, and I don't think it's ethically wrong to teach magic that can't currently be proven to belong to anyone living, so long as the creator is credited if known (regardless of whether they're still alive). I DO think it's wrong to put magic that belongs to someone else on a public forum like youtube, and I also think it's wrong to try to use such a forum to learn such magic and circumvent paying or asking for the owner's permission. If an effect appears in my show, it's either something I made up, something I paid to know, or something that I learned from a free source that I deem to be ethical. Other magicians may have a more or less strict definition of what constitutes an ethical source, but that's life. Everyone has his own perspective.

I've also never, ever, EVER done a trick and had someone say in the middle of it "Oh, I know how you're doing that! I saw it on Youtube!" Maybe if I had, my opinion would be different.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
May 6, 2013
148
5
www.Ibimania.com
You do know I said teach the things you create. Even though Ammar did not create CMH. Know why they are exposing? To get people to buy their stuff. They are not teaching they are trying to make money. Exposing is teaching in an open public forum. Youtube is an open public forum. Do you have to pay to get on youtube? Is the magic behind a paywall if the magic in an area where you have to show you are a magician? No? Then it is an open forum. OPEN FORUM I type that last one slow just for you. Bushwood tried to defend his exposure but it is still exposing things he did not create in the name of making money and selling his book test.

So as long as people have to "Pay" it is fine to teach? Dude, you clearly haven't gotten the memo, magic is no longer exclusive. PEople are creating and teaching on the wire, classics and public domain effects are out in the open.

You should get the "Public domain" idea down by now. teaching a double lift is not exposing.
 

WitchDocIsIn

Elite Member
Sep 13, 2008
5,877
2,945
I've also never, ever, EVER done a trick and had someone say in the middle of it "Oh, I know how you're doing that! I saw it on Youtube!" Maybe if I had, my opinion would be different.

So ... since it hasn't effected you, you don't care? Shouldn't it be more that it's something that effects the community, so you should care? Not that I think exposure is a huge deal - I honestly think that we could eliminate exposure pretty easily if the majority of magicians would stop performing the same material.

And one other thing - Look, I know pink is your thing. I get that. I respect it. But to put it simply, hot pink on light grey is painful for my eyes. I skip a lot of what you post because it's just too much work to read. You may not care about my opinion, but if I'm thinking it, other people are as well.

So as long as people have to "Pay" it is fine to teach? Dude, you clearly haven't gotten the memo, magic is no longer exclusive. People are creating and teaching on the wire, classics and public domain effects are out in the open.

You should get the "Public domain" idea down by now. teaching a double lift is not exposing.

No, "teaching" a double lift is not exposing. Exposing a double lift is exposing. That is not the same thing as teaching.

Furthermore, "Pay" can mean a variety of things. In this case, "pay" often means "pay your dues". As in, be involved in the community and develop a reputation and connections. Sometimes "pay" just means "make friends with" someone who knows what you want to learn. Sometimes it means doing reviews. Sometimes it means getting a job at a magic store. And yes, often times it just means handing over currency. But the student has to do something to show the dedication to learning the craft.

The only reason magic is "out in the open" is because of how many people there are that get more attention by revealing tricks than they can by performing them. There's quite a lot of exclusive material out there. Only a small fraction of it has been put onto videos and your average YouTube exposer isn't going to spend the time or money to get the sources of the really interesting stuff. That would take, you know, actual work. Heaven forbid.
 
Apr 17, 2013
885
4
So as long as people have to "Pay" it is fine to teach? Dude, you clearly haven't gotten the memo, magic is no longer exclusive. PEople are creating and teaching on the wire, classics and public domain effects are out in the open.

You should get the "Public domain" idea down by now. teaching a double lift is not exposing.

Few things. Pay is in pay your dues do the leg work. Show that you really want to learn not just know. Like how The E and the Green Monster has standard to reach before you get into the area where they talk workings. My metentor didn't charge me to learn, but I had to show I wanted to learn. I would have to show him that I took the time to learn everything about the effect he taught me. Some times I would only get one thing taught to me in an eight month time frame. When I started I wanted to know it all, but I had someone who knew I didn't need to know it all and how to filter what I was taking in. If it is just handed to you it's not as satisfying as earning it through dedication.

Also maybe you didn't get the memo, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. I think the wire is doing more to hurt magic than it does to help it. Not everything needs to be shared.

Secondly look up how Disney has pretty much killed public domain before you tell me I need to get the public domain idea down. here I'll make it easier for you. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_Term_Extension_Act
Here is the list just for 2013 alone. http://web.law.duke.edu/cspd/publicdomainday/2013/pre-1976 So I know about public domain and I know that many works will never enter it now.

I also know that teaching someone a double lift in a CLOSED FORUM is teachings showing how the double lift works in an OPEN PUBLIC FORUM is exposure.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Apr 17, 2013
885
4
Do you have to pay or prove you're a magician to walk into a library and open a library card? Not near me, you don't. They're open and free to the public. Are there magic books in libraries? Usually. The first magic books I checked out were in my elementary school library and they were old as dirt. I didn't have to pay for that information, and nobody made sure I was a magician before I was allowed to have it. I still had to go looking for it, but that was all, and if it hadn't been for those books I might not have started magic at all, and if I had it might not have been as young, cutting years off of my time to practice. That free information was integral to my start in magic, and even though I fumbled through most of those routines with my tiny fingers and my friends could easily check out the same books and foil all my tricks, I still consider that time integral to my experience in the craft. Kids today are doing basically the same thing, just on the internet. I just don't feel threatened by that at all.

You know taking the time to go and find a book is doing the leg work. by "Paying" we mean pay your dues, do the leg work.

So you go to the library and find that magic number 793.8. After you go though those books you start asking about getting books from other libraries. Then you see there is a magician working at a fair or a festival. You talk to him and you find out about the IBM or SAM/SYM. That is different than seeing someone do an effect on TV going to google to see how it is done just to know.


As for IBM, I've visited my local ring twice (once years ago and once at their last meeting). I intend to go back again, and eventually I'd like to join. In my experience they allow visitors to come a few times without paying, signing or swearing anything, or performing any magic. For all they know, everyone who does that and doesn't come back was a layman who just wanted to know some magic secrets for some reason. I found the information for when and where they met on the internet for free. I have performed both of the times I've gone because I love it, but it was strictly on a voluntary basis. The times I did perform, I didn't expose anything I didn't create. Incidentally, I performed Wayne Houchin's A Single Needle the last time I went and directed them toward the DVD rather than teach Wayne's handling of the effect, even though the East Indian Needle Mystery is a very old effect. I also performed Justin Miller's Cell Break and did the same thing; I pointed them to the retailer rather than expose it. I did spend a lot of time, however, teaching a little kid to do some card and rubber band magic that I learned when I was close to his age.

Do you really think magicians are teaching every new thing they learn at the meetings? That doesn't happen and i'm sure you could have been stopped had you tried to teach how to do them. Guy teach their own effects at the mini lectures. They teach how they took a gimmick that everyone has to do something new with it. They do not teach the newest single trick DVD.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Searching...
{[{ searchResultsCount }]} Results