Young vs. Old

As a young magician in an art which used to be heavily dominated by elders, I feel sort of "subordinate". I constantly hear that the youth in magic are destroying the art that used to be so prestigious. Do you think that that holds true? Are we really destroying magic?

Discuss...

Mitch
 
Dec 28, 2007
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I don't think so. We are just on our way, not yet there.

This is a culmination.
I believe that nowadays the path to magician goes somewhat like this:

1) They watch Criss Angel episode
2) They want to know how those tricks are done, so he searches with google
3)They end up to Ellusionist, and get hyped in. They "perform" Be Honest, What is it to a random strangers, thinking they are cool street magicians doing "2CM"
4) They find Theory11, and start dissing Ellusionist
5) They see a real professional on a gig
6) They start to value "old school"
 
Sep 1, 2007
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2nd Deal,

I could not agree less with what you just said...

How in the world is magic supposed to progress as an art if every magician just ends up "old school?" The whole idea that young magicians need to learn about the past, and do things the "right way" is disguisting really. Open your mind for a moment, and realize what could be done with magic if we ignored all of the rules... F*ck the old guys, do what you want.
Now I do say this with experience. I have gone down that "I'm going to do things the right way!" path, and have discovered what a corrupt and cynical world the magic community is. It's full of a bunch of hypocrites thinking they have the right to judge other people. If we want magic to survive, things need to change FAST. Here's what I would add to your list of steps...

7) They wake the hell up.
 
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Dec 28, 2007
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How in the world is magic supposed to progress as an art if every magician just ends up "old school?"

Old School doesn't mean doing things the same way, or at least I didn't mean it that way.
What I would call "New School" is this whole Street Magic, visuality, quick effect's etc thing that is know going on.
Old School means to me, at the moment, more professional magic. Paid performances, theathretical build-up, etc.

Old School is progressing. New presentational theories come up, new methods, new effects, new priciples etc.

EDIT: I read your edit, and I think I agree with you. But I don't think that waking up to something new doesn't mean returning to Street Magic, or visual effects.
 
Sep 2, 2007
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also agreeing with Cory Landels

Cory also has a very good point and I also know from experience that nearly 90% of old school magicians are hypocrites. (no offense) Cory also points out that the magic community is filled with people judging others,which is a MAJOR problem. Artist should not be judge other artist for their style. Thats the audiences job. We need to learn how to enjoy our differences and MAYBE even mix our differences together.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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EDIT: I read your edit, and I think I agree with you. But I don't think that waking up to something new doesn't mean returning to Street Magic, or visual effects.

You're right. Waking up to someting new means, well... something new. It's mostly about embracing what is going on with magic in the present, and looking towards the future and how things could progress. There was a great conversation about this over at another forum... Basically, if we want magic to continue to thrive - we need to take the lessons we have learned from the past, our dreams and vision for the future, and apply them to a solid foundation that works for magic in the present.

Cory also has a very good point and I also know from experience that nearly 90% of old school magicians are hypocrites. (no offense) Cory also points out that the magic community is filled with people judging others,which is a MAJOR problem. Artist should not be judge other artist for their style. Thats the audiences job. We need to learn how to enjoy our differences and MAYBE even mix our differences together.

It is a major problem. The only solution that is present at the moment is to break away from the magic community and become a solitary artist. I've made some attempts to find peace within the community by expressing my opinions to some "traditionalists" and let's just say... They were certainly not open to the idea.
 
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great topic.

I enjoy watching "old school" magic. (how is that defined?)
but i also enjoy performing the newer "new school" stuff. Although I think the best is a little mix of the two. Personally, for my talent show act this year, I am going to be doing the Linking rings-is that "old school?" Sure it is. BUT-with my presentation, it is younger, not an old man moving like a robot like he has for three thousand performances.

I think one major difference between new school and old school is age. (duh) In all seriousness though, magic as an art is evolving. It evolved when Houdin was around, it evolved when Keller was around, it evolved when Blackstone was around, It evolved when Henning was around-and now it's evolving. That's life. (the times and a changing)

Ic an see the idea of forgetting the past and jsut coming up with new, which could be good for some. However, I think taking on the old and changing it and making it apply to this era is the best kind of magic.
 
Sep 2, 2007
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Visalia, CA
well thats extremely true, because some of the "old school-ers" are so use to their old ways they don't want to change. So as you said, being solitary artist is the best route for the new generation until we find a way to unite. (unite = dramatic word)
 
Sep 1, 2007
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Personally, for my talent show act this year, I am going to be doing the Linking rings-is that "old school?" Sure it is. BUT-with my presentation, it is younger, not an old man moving like a robot like he has for three thousand performances.

That's awesome dude. I've got a neat idea for the linking rings that I think you'd be interested in. Shoot me a PM and I'll tell you a bit more about it.

I think one major difference between new school and old school is age. (duh) In all seriousness though, magic as an art is evolving. It evolved when Houdin was around, it evolved when Keller was around, it evolved when Blackstone was around, It evolved when Henning was around-and now it's evolving. That's life. (the times and a changing)

That's true. I think that as a community we need to realize this, and go with the flow.
 
I think a major problem with the young magicians is that they're depending on people to guide them TOO MUCH. Guidance is good, but when you are getting rapid suggestions on how to change your style left and right its hard to succumb to these pressures properly. I think to truly learn we must learn from experience. The young magicians must perform to become better magicians.

I also have noticed that many of the older magicians look down on the younger ones simply because of their experience. Instead of looking down on them, they should guide them properly. Reassure them rather than discourage them.

Mitch
 

Jack

Elite Member
Sep 5, 2007
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Decatur, GA
Youth isn't destroying magic it's changing it. The respect needs to remain for the old but I think the only way to evolve is to improve upon or change the old. Take Dan and Dave for example. Their card magic is deeply rooted in "old" card technique. They studdied the work of masters and blended that knowlege with some new techniques and flourishing to create their own style. It's why they're so good and why people like to watch them.
I also agree with MitchellS... Youth needs to perform more. Not on YouTube! IN PUBLIC!!! The camera is not an audience! This is an interactive art form and it doesn't cost you anything to go outside and do a trick for someone. Well maybe a little pride, but the reward either way is huge.
 
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Sep 1, 2007
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The more I see of the "magic community" - specifically the online community - the more discouraged I get. Working professionals bickering like schoolgirls, giants of magic disrespected, their work, experience and talent minimised by those who don't know any better. Between the "old school" grumps and the "new school" rush to "create, create, create" the whole thing is a bit depressing.

Perhaps this is just the nature of the magician; little kings of little castles. Perhaps we just don't play well together!

I think it is important to learn from the experiences of others - about what to do and also what not to do. In order to do this, you must be open to learning from any source available.

The world is much the same as it has ever been - people haven't changed, just their environment. This means that the magic that has been tried and tested for decades will still work, provided you make it work. "New school" doesn't have to mean "new tricks" - old tricks with a coat of paint for a more modern audience is the obvious solution. Creative minds will continue to make new and original magic, which is great - and certainly nothing to worry about. At the end of the day, it comes down to doing your thing, your way.

I do think that the concept of "street magic" devalues what everyone is clamouring to call "our art" (which sounds painfully forced!). If you're good enough to be performing in public for strangers you need to get past this mindset and think about how you're going to make something more out of your magic. Put together a show, join a theatre company and learn something about acting, go and perform at old folks homes or children's hospitals...

Remember that the time you spend practising should dramatically outweigh the time you spend performing. I think that this is something that the "new school" could learn from the "old school". A magician has to enjoy practising, love practising for its own sake, because that's what you should be doing most of the time.

Cheers,
David.
 
Dec 14, 2007
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When you come to study your history, you learn that most of what is passing as "new school" is not new at all. So, I think you can start to see why so many who have spent years in the art may find this old wine, being hyped in new bottles, to taste more like vinegar than ambrosia.

Also, this notion that old timers are "disrespecting" people - whatever that means exactly - also shows a lack of understanding. (I realize Shodan is taking this is an different direction than I am here, but it is an important point to look at from both sides.)

Pretending that you make a living performing your ideas in the real world, when your entire livelihood comes from lectures and selling tricks created for DVDs, is not the kind of claim which earns "respect" among your professional peers.

Further, being young, good looking, or knowing how to edit a video clip does not give one permission to take someone else's ideas and sell them as their own.

While the people who are buying may not know where the ideas are coming from - and think of these people as genius's or artists - that does not change the fact that the sea is much bigger than they know. I think it is reasonable that people who have spent their lives actually coming up with new ideas stand up against those who take the work of others and sell it as their own.

Finally, this notion that artists should not be critical of each other is simply ludicrous. If anyone should be critical of an artists work, it should be another artist. When you study art history you see that it is this crucible of ideas, conflicting world views, and the passionate expression of these arguments through art that fueled the development of new thinking - not a bunch of glad handing and back slapping. Brahms had his Wagner, afterall.

When you have studied the history of magic, you see that so much of what is "new" is really old. More so, you see that some of the old ideas were more thoughtful, and more practical. So, when you see something "new" that is really a shadow of something "old" it's reasonable to be a little cranky I think.

Brad Henderson
 
Sep 1, 2007
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The "respect" comment in my post was actually in reference to the younger generation Brad - although on re-reading that really wasn't too obvious. My central moan is that magicians seem to have a prelidiction for being nothing short of rude to everyone else (the magic cafe quite frankly scares me nowadays). Interestingly, the tendancy of the next generation to rebel has resulted in the younger guys being very supportive of each other - coincidence?

Whilst your points about "passionate expression" and "conflicting world views" are very well put, I can't help but feel that this represents an ideal that is lost in a fog of one upmanship, bickering and name calling - little kings of little castles. Granted, this appears not to be the case in some instances - there are exceptions to all "social rules" - it is true enough to be worthy of comment. In all likelyhood, this kind of attitude exists within all performing arts based communities - theatre arts are guilty of it for sure!

My experience of being a working magician has been that my livelihood has come from booking gigs and performing for laypeople - not one penny from lectures or product sales so far! Quite frankly, I feel that I don't have the experience, chops or reputation to even think of selling my ideas or telling other magicians how they should do their thing. So, whilst I don't approve of stealing/repackaging the ideas of others and selling them, I don't think its worth getting worked up over because it doesn't impact on my life in the slightest.
 
Dec 14, 2007
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I understood your point, and agree with it wholeheartedly. However, I have seen it work in the opposite way too.

As to the theft idea - the problem comes when the material being lifted comes from someone's working act. When a "magic dealer" which is what these people really are, poach their material from a working performer - that to me IS something to get worked up about. Sometimes they are swiping an original creation, sometimes they are appropriating a long lost trick that someone discovered and chose to hone into a substantial performance piece. Regardless, these are not the people we should be admiring in any form.

There has always been a divide between magic for real people and magic for magicians. The succesful PERFORMERS quickly learn the difference and invest their time studying the former. Dabblers wait for what's new, and if it fools them, they buy it.

Which is a good thing. It keeps the solid material hidden away for people willing to do a little digging!

Brad Henderson
 
i agree there.

I feel that many times material (max 7 tricks) is put out on a "new hip" dvd for $30 when those same tricks can be found in a $10 book that has ten times as much information.

I have been sucked in to that- some of it is marketing and the target audience.

But finding the difference between those two magics is the search that every one of us has to undertake. But then again, a trick may be good with a certain performer's presentation, then totally butchered with another. Leading us back to the individual performer as the central piece to the magic.
 
Sep 1, 2007
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I'm a little confused as to why this discussion has steered in the direction of magic products, and the creation of "new" effects. The magic community faces much more serious problems than this, the respect of youth being one of them. We should ignore the false world of marketed effects, and look at the simple, important issues. As a young person who is interested in the art of magic, I recognize this as a big issue. I've tried to understand both sides of the story, but simply can't.
 
Dec 14, 2007
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Because most youth are being brought into magic via a giant marketing scheme, i.e. Street Magic. The young magicians who come into magic through this door are indoctrinated with certain idea(l)s, attitudes and practices. While these may be glamorous and cool, they often are not conducive for interaction in the world of adults - magician or otherwise.

Further, some of these concepts fail to recognize that magic has a long history and fail to engender any sense of respect for it or its secrets. (Which is amply demonstrated when stolen ideas are sold in another's name, and people cry, "so what, I think he's cool!") OR when people put up awful videos on youtube, concerned more with promoting themselves than magic as a whole.

The "old timers" have always been cautious around young people. This is how it has ALWAYS been. However, whenever someone who is serious, and has a respect for the craft, demonstrates that they truly care - they will always be given the guidance and support they need.

I have never seen that NOT be the case.

Now, if you come on to the scene thinking you DESERVE to know everything, that people should care about you because you've been doing magic all of a year, then yes - backs will be turned.

But that's not a clash between old school and new, it's what happens when you are rude and self absorbed.

If you want respect, show it. You might be surprised how far it will get you.

Brad Henderson
 
Although I will not get into the topic at hand thoroughly (most likely, not even at all), however I would like to point out a mistake people too often make in topics such as this. This mistake has been made numerous times already in this topic.

What am I blabbing about?

The distinction of the youth of magic (aka young magicians) v.s. people NEW to magic.

I am 14 years old right now; does that mean I got my start with Criss Angel? No. I got my start in magic over a half decade before Criss Angel became a celebrity.

The thing too many magicians are ignorant (they know that the distinction is there, they just fail to see it until it is actually "said") of is the difference between these two categories of magicians. Young magicians could have been in magic for 2, 5, 10, 15 years, learning and perfecting their art. These same magicians have performed for the President (need I tell anyone about Chad Juros at the White House Easter Party?), and have amazed thousands of professionals (notice I categorize skill and not age) at the SAM Stars of Tomorrow Show. These young magicians vary in experience, and some of them are better than your middle-aged and elderly magicians (too often referred to as pros just because of their age).

Then there are your NEW MAGICIANS

These can be 5 year olds, 15 year olds, or 55, heck 85 year-olds. A new magician is one who has just recently gotten into magic; one that has not learned about Ellusionist and all the other crap out on the internet right now. A new magician is one that has not learned many effects and does not appreciate the effort creators put into their work. A new magician is one who believes an effect beats performance and believes that David Blaine is the best magician to ever live (celebrity performer, arguably, but magician, no). A new magician is just beginning to learn about the world of magic- it's organizations, conventions, people, effects, "rules", ethics, and so on. However a new magician is not necessarily a young magician. A new magician can be ANY AGE. Re-read that please.

"New Magician" is a skill level and not an age and the new magician skill level is the one that makes the most mistakes (the same is with every profession). Experience comes with time SPENT in the art. And an 18 year old with 3 years experience is more experienced than a 50 year-old with one year's experience.

I will however admit that until you reach a certain age, the entire world is not necessarily seen by you. At 8 you don't worry about image, appearance, speech, presence, and so on unless you are told to (and even then you don't know why). I will be the first to admit this because I can see that in the past year I have advanced more than I did the first 4-5 years of my magic career. However that is why I said 18 year old with 3 years experience in my example. This still fits into the "young magician v.s. old magician", however around this age you begin to finally see the light in this world and see that things aren't always the way they appear. Compliments aren't always compliments, truth might not always be truth, and "performing" might not actually be PERFORMING. And at this age you begin to correct all aspects of your magic, and because the handling is already there, all you really need to correct is presentation and your view of things.

However that's already getting even more off topic. Point is the following:

1. We need to begin to understand the distinction between a young magician and a new magician.

2. We need to help and nurture both of these groups. Young magicians need to be shown "the real world" and not be sheltered until their mid-teens and new magicians need to be shown different communities and different approaches to magic.

3.The majority of the current new magicians need to be taught ethics.

4. Young magicians need to stop "getting all of the heat" for "ruining the art" (this is very debatable, however we do get blamed for it) when it is in fact the new magicians that simply do not understand ethics and the reasons behind those ethics.


Anyway, thanks for letting me ramble, and just remember that this is 'something for ya'll to think 'bout,'
~David Rysin

Edit:

P.S. Just to make it completely clear, Brad, I'm only being nit-picky about the difference between young and new that you and a few others in here made. I am however in 100%+ agreement with your above statement. I have always respected my peers (heck I've probably even sucked-up to a few magicians nevermind respected...) and I have always been treated with respect in return and have been able to learn some things from some great people...Things I would have never learned had I walked up to any of them saying "Yo dude, I'm Dave. Wanna see my brand new street magic effect?" *proceeds to do an effect with a svengali deck*.

Which also brings up the difference between invent and come up with...but that'll be saved for a future rambling...

Generally speaking, respect is rewarded with respect (and in the magic community the respect that you earn also includes knowledge and its avaliability to you). So learn to speak with adults and enjoy their presence. I was lucky enough to be "born with" being able to communicate with my elders and I have (usually) enjoyed their presence over the presence of a peer (unless that peer was also able to communicate with adults...then I enjoyed their presence). If that's you, then you're one step ahead of the game. If it isn't learn to do the above, and you will be greatly rewarded.

Anyway, good topic. Just had to get my 2 cents out there.
 
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