Cardistry - What's The Point?

[saborfang17]

I love it.. it CAN be art but it isn't.

I respect all of your opinions, although I certainly tried my best to explain my perspective and why I so strongly disagree. Nevertheless, I think we all share an appreciation for Cardistry and at the end of the day, that's what matters most.

If the first sentence was sarcasm, then perhaps I didn't get my point across clearly. I mean to say that in the hands of SOME people it is, because they make it seem like visual poetry. Others? They make it look like they're trying to practice the best part of it - the rhythm. In my opinion, the rhythm of cardistry dictates their entire style, and too many people try and copy that style when learning. Like you said - there's very few "original" creators in cardistry. I'd like to expand by saying that there's very few people who give it an original meaning, making it look like true art in my eyes.

If not, my bad.

 

[RDChopper]

Like you said - there's very few "original" creators in cardistry. I'd like to expand by saying that there's very few people who give it an original meaning, making it look like true art in my eyes.

I have to agree with that, for me the best examples of "meaning" would be Dimitri, Ambrose, Viet and Shoeman. Great great concepts in cardistry

 

[praetoritevong]

Perhaps the most common argument I've seen against cardistry being an art is that it fails to communicate meaning or emotion. Contrast this against, say, a painting, a play, or a song. With that said, I don't follow the cardistry community a lot, so if someone more in the know than myself could point me to some videos they feel do convey meaning/emotion, I'd be greatly appreciative.

The other brief observation I'd like to make concerns whether or not cardistry "can" be an art. Whilst I understand Andrei's skepticism towards this statement (I think), I would like to offer an explanation of what this means. See, we have a similar issue in magic. Theory11 names its performers and creators "artists", right? All in all, I wouldn't object to that phrase. But randomly select a magician from these forums, or a YouTube video, or any performance at all, and I would submit that the majority of these could not be considered "artists" per se, nor would they be considered artists, who by definition create art. Well, are the majority of magicians creating art? I think it's a highly debatable point, as it is in cardistry.

 

[JapChinkGook]

I have to agree with that, for me the best examples of "meaning" would be Dimitri, Ambrose, Viet and Shoeman. Great great concepts in cardistry

And yet even these guys have yet created a pure, uncut routine that's able to evoke emotion that could qualify cardistry and card manipulation as an "art".

The way I see it is RDChopper is basing his views on the present, while Andrei is looking to the future. Presently, we have no performers truly worthy of the title of "artist", in the sense of evoking emotion in an audience. But as with Andrei, I agree that just because it hasn't yet, it doesn't mean it's impossible.

I can see SOO MUCH POTENTIAL in cardistry and manipulation - ever increasing numbers of techniques, different styling, combinations with music - the components are there. I think the question we should be focusing on now is: What is missing? Or perhaps Who? Maybe we're all waiting for someone to take the first step, the first giant leap.

 

[RDChopper]

The way I see it is RDChopper is basing his views on the present, while Andrei is looking to the future. Presently, we have no performers truly worthy of the title of "artist", in the sense of evoking emotion in an audience. But as with Andrei, I agree that just because it hasn't yet, it doesn't mean it's impossible.

Yeah, that pretty much is my main thing here. I mean, it is a hipothesis that it "could" be done in the future, I gave my reasons as to why I see this highly unlikely, and nobody has told me quite yet why it "could" be art with a solid argument behind it. The main argument here for that it's that it "holds a lot of potential".

As I said, "Cardistry" lacks a lot of elementes that would make it "Art" to the level where music is. Also, ( I don't want to go back to the the heated discussion) Andrei gave for a FACT that it can be done, as if it already existed, as Prae suggests, I also only want proof that proves his hipothesis.

Theory11 names its performers and creators "artists", right? All in all, I wouldn't object to that phrase. But randomly select a magician from these forums, or a YouTube video, or any performance at all, and I would submit that the majority of these could not be considered "artists" per se, nor would they be considered artists, who by definition create art. Well, are the majority of magicians creating art? I think it's a highly debatable point, as it is in cardistry.

Now this is a really touchy subject, I have gave it a lot of thought and still I don't know if magic could be considered art. But alas, you definetly have a point there Prae.

 

[saborfang17]

To be Honest I LOVE Cardistry because of attention!!!!!!!

-It is fun to practice....
-I don't look like some kid trying to do magic because I look very professional
-BEST way to Impress your girlfriends pearents
-I get cool nicknames everywhere I go(Ace,Gambit,Card master)
-My friends always show me off to their other friends

- I flourish so much on the train that I am a celebrity in many schools I never even go to.

Cardistry Is my chance to have ME TIME. When I am practicing I can just relax and reflect over my life in my mind ,as a way to relieve stress or anger...

Nothing to see here, folks - keep on movin'.

 

[Steve Dio]

-I don't look like some kid trying to do magic because I look very professional
-BEST way to Impress your girlfriends pearents
-I get cool nicknames everywhere I go(Ace,Gambit,Card master)
-My friends always show me off to their other friends

- I flourish so much on the train that I am a celebrity in many schools I never even go to.

Yeah, and then you woke up.

P.S: Laughing like hell since I read this post. Let me go through it again:

-[...] I look very professional

Then...

-I get cool nicknames everywhere I go(Ace,Gambit,Card master)

...
PFFFFFFTTT... AHAHAHAHA!!!!

P.P.S: I'll post an opinion on this subject when I'll have the time.

 

[BlueSpade1000]

It would be more impressive if you opened up a copy of Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, used spell-check, or just Googled the correct spelling of "parents."

As far as relieving stress or anger - your body is using those actions with your hand to help produce hormones that'll calm you down and make you feel better. That much I can believe. However, I'm not a big fan of the ["Oh, check me out b****, I can do this sh** and you can't. I'm so much cooler than y'all!"] attitude.

Geez,did you have to be so rude beacuse of a little spelling mistake???????The cussing is a bit unnecessary.Cardist are deserve to show off. As long as the cardist has a playfull attitude when doing cardistry

 

[praetoritevong]

To be Honest I LOVE Cardistry because of attention!!!!!!!

-It is fun to practice....
-I don't look like some kid trying to do magic because I look very professional
-My friends always show me off to their other friends

- I flourish so much on the train that I am a celebrity in many schools I never even go to.

Cardistry Is my chance to have ME TIME. When I am practicing I can just relax and reflect over my life in my mind ,as a way to relieve stress or anger...

lol.

Anyway, RDC - Well, I'm more open to magic being called art. Look at, for example, Teller's Shadows effect, perhaps my favourite effect of all time. Or Derren Brown's Zamiel's Rose, Sean Waters' Mind's Eye, any of Rick Maue's works, or for more magic-related people, guys like Ricky Jay and Lennart Green. Ricky Jay has this wonderful ability to tell a story with his magic. Lennart Green has this similarly wonderful ability to weave emotion into magic.

Note that when I talk about meaning or emotion, I don't necessarily mean it has to be something deep and meaningful about life.

 

[BlueSpade1000]

edited for useless argument

 

[BlueSpade1000]

edited for useless argument

 

[BlueSpade1000]

edited for useless argument

 

[BlueSpade1000]

edited for useless argument

 

[CaseyRudd]

OK kids, time to settle down your fire. Please answer the original questions as stated in the original post and keep it on track. If you dont have anything nice to say, don't say it at all. Keep it civil. And in the words of MagicJohnny8Ball, "KEEP IT MAGIC, KEEP IT REAL!"

 

[saborfang17]

Actually, I apologize. I've been acting immature, hence, all my posts on this thread are going to be edited within a few minutes.

EDIT:

Thanks, Casey.

 

[KI77Y]

I picked up cardistry just to add a few more parlor tricks to my arsenal. it keeps my fingers busy when i'm bored and doing charliers are so relaxing when just watching tv or reading a book or studying! i used to use baoding balls all the time but the chime sound was starting to drive me nuts. cards are quieter but just as handy.
i feel like the point of cardistry- flourishing- is exactly what it seems; a flourish, a fancy move, something to impress and look nice. there's no crime in aesthetics, it's like getting dressed- if you put a little effort in appearance you are likely to impress! when you are lazy or haphazard in appearance you are likely to get a lousy first impression. yes, it is wrong to "judge a book by its cover" but it's difficult to deny that appearance factors into an overall assessment! taking time to do flourishes shows your effort in learning and performing something other than a trite riffle shuffle- especially if you have an interesting looking deck, too! nothing wrong with doing something fancy just to spice the day!

 

[NlightN]

havent read all the posts but art is expressing yourself. magic is art. not so much the tricks themselves but how you express yourself through them. i dont understand flourishing so i dont get all the details so for me it's just dexterity with the hands. just like i think skateboarding is an art. i understand it, i see all the details. someone else might laugh and say are you kidding me? because they dont understand it. it's like if you were to bring me to an art gallery. i don't see art. i see painted pictures. squiggly lines are just squiggly lines.

anyway you do flourishes because they can be fun, challenging etc.

 

[RDChopper]

lol.

Anyway, RDC - Well, I'm more open to magic being called art. Look at, for example, Teller's Shadows effect, perhaps my favourite effect of all time. Or Derren Brown's Zamiel's Rose, Sean Waters' Mind's Eye, any of Rick Maue's works, or for more magic-related people, guys like Ricky Jay and Lennart Green. Ricky Jay has this wonderful ability to tell a story with his magic. Lennart Green has this similarly wonderful ability to weave emotion into magic.

Note that when I talk about meaning or emotion, I don't necessarily mean it has to be something deep and meaningful about life.

Zamiel's rose is a perfect example of conveying a message (or a emotion) through magic. You are not calling attention to yourself, you are enterteining, and not only that, but you are also hooking the spectator with a feeling that we all have had in one way or another. A feeling that you had, that pushed you to make magic (and the trick you are performing) with a feeling and emotion that is really yours, but that can be shared with the rest of the people.

I am a fanatic of zamiel rose. good times.

 

[Andrei]

Art is everywhere and nowhere. Art can be found in every aspect of your life and dismissed just as easily.

Unlike RDChopper, I disagree that motivation plays a role (the commercial factor). Eminem is a lyrical genius and arguably created some of his best works in the harshest of financial situations while fighting for recognition and fame. I would not dismiss the result of his work simply because his motivation may have included financial gain (or any other form of gain). Necessity is the mother of all creation and regardless of reason or motivation, people can still produce beautiful works of art.

Cardstry, magic, music, martial arts, and other disciplines can be interpreted as "calling attention to yourself" and on the contrary, they can also be entertaining without "showing off".

I've thought about the story telling/meaning/emotional factors and I'm not convinced that they are a necessity in determining art. Not all works of art tell stories (Jackson Pollock and his abstract expressionism), not all of them have deeper meanings, and the emotion factor is too vague/abstract to take into consideration because emotions are something we all go through every single day. I can stand in front of an audience for 5 minutes doing nothing, they would most likely become angry and want their money back - that is an emotion I have evoked out of them but it wasn't exactly art. Emotions are an essential process in every day life.

Art should be determined by inspiration and creation/expression. It must inspire and have the potential of creation and expression through said discipline. Cardistry lets me create new movements, express myself, and what I love doing. Many Cardists have inspired me to reach farther and to keep creating. Although these liberal factors can be applied to almost everything, it is precisely the reason why art can be found everywhere and nowhere depending on how you want to look at things.

 

[Goldmos]

Well, the basic thing when you do want a debate is set the "definition" and the "rule" before the debate. I love debate too. I'm a scientist and I love the Relativity philosophy. But, when I do want to argue about something, I do ask this simple question: what do you mean by...? After I know exactly what the other person think of the subject, I can build a valid argument for him. That is said, I don't have begun flourishing, but what push me to learn flourishing is the way the cards are handled. I think it's really beautiful and will also improve your dexterity. I saw Andrei doing his stuff and even if I know that he put over 2000 h into it, it seems so easy in his hand and I'm telling myself: wow, I want to achieve that level. For now, well, I drop card and can barelly do a shuffle without a table.But, I'll practice and will become more proeficient.