Cardistry - What's The Point?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Casey Rudd, Mar 10, 2011.

  1. My response to this is quite simple. Do you want to be a juggler or a magician?
    If you do all that XCM and ""cardistry"" during your performance you suck all the magic out of your act ant immediately turn in to a trickster.
    It's fine to neatly fan a deck of cards to offer a selection but trust me, although it looks cool, in the end of the day it's about magic, not doing something just because you can.
    How is your pass? How is your palming? How is your card control? Dont lie and say it's fine... Concentrate on what matters. The audience is not supposed to know how good you are with cards, there is a difference between excellent and amazing. I'd rather be amazing, theres nothing worse than hearing "wow, you are quick with your hands"
    The magic must look like it's just happening, not being manipulated.
    Even your friend at school could see it... "whats the point".... Why cant we see it? Just because it takes practice and skill does not make it worth while.
    I spent six years developing a coin flourish routine, and I never use it. I wish I could have spent that time perfecting sleights. If it's not a sleight, it's not useful
  2. Well, I suppose you dont like cardistry then? ;)
  3. There is no point. It's like anything, people do it because they enjoy it and some are good enough to make money from it but there isn't really a point. Why do barmen flare? There is no point, it's just cooler than pouring a drink normally.
  4. Bring me the absolute authority of art and I'll bow down to his or her opinion. Until then, art is in the eye of the beholder. Some call Beethoven's music art, others feel the same way about Eminem. Some feel that cardistry/flourishing/XCM is an art, some don't.


    Nobody can say "this isn't art.". They can say "this isn't art in my opinion", but that's as far as it gets. Art is subjective.
  5. What is XCM?
  6. Thank you TimSilva and Mike Hankins I was worried I was gonna get flamed.

    Keep up the good work Mike!
  7. @Ashburner - I understand all of your points, as they are clear and simple, but you are assuming that people who are skilled at flourishing will integrate it into their magic. This is not always the case. I can only speak for myself, but often perform for any entire night withough using any flourishes. I might do a fan, a piroute, or a one handed cut, but nothing explicitly done to show off.

    Overall, I think that your opinion is pretty valid, but it is a little outdated and loaded with assumptions, generalizations, and projections about others. Which is fine, as we are all guilty of this. :p But I think you are oversimplifying the issue down to something that just doesn't do justice to the debate. For example, alling someone who is pro-choice, "anti-life," in regards to their stance on abortion is a very harmful construct for the argument. You don't have to be just a juggler or a magician, the line can be blurred, and it not only doesn't have to take away from either one, they can certainly complement each other like the Bucks and d+M have done.

    ^Requoted for awesomeness. :)
  8. I stopped flourishing a little while ago.

    I started focusing on performing and interacting with the audience.

    XCM/Cardistry is an art and to those who do it..more power to them!

    But I'm going back to the roots and ask myself "Why did I get into magic?"

    Not to flourish, but to more-so PERFORM magic.

    To each his/her own.
  9. If you are a card cheat, then people aren't supposed to know how good you are with cards. But if you are a magician, then people EXPECT you to be good with cards.

    Some people when they perform want their audience to believe that they posses real magic powers. And then there are ones who tell their audience that they are skilled at sleight of hand and are going to entertain them with a deck of cards or coins.

    But if you think about it from the perspective of doing REAL magic: if you have the "ability" or "power" to bend a friggin spoon with your mind, then why would you NOT have the "ability" or "power" to manipulate with a deck of cards?

  10. And you can make thousands of dollars a WEEK being a Flaretender too. Go to Las Vegas and try to get a job at a well known bar after telling them you don't know how to flare. Not gonna happen.
  11. I flourish because it's entertaining for me and my friends, it keeps my hands in shape, passes the time, and provides memorable experiences. I work full time at a hotel and I spend part of my morning flourishing for the guest simply because it's something extra I can do to add to the guest experience and separate us from the competition in our area.

    I flourish because I want to and I love to. I don't care who says it is or isn't art, I'm not concerned with people trying to press their opinions onto others because at the end of the day it simply doesn't matter. I consider it an art form and if you don't, that's great but I don't care.

    At the same time, I can appreciate how passionate Andrei got about the whole "debate" because as he said - he's dedicated his life to creating beauty with cards. It's part of the legacy that he'll leave behind, to see him defend it with a passion says it all.
  12. #112 Mouseff, Apr 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 12, 2011
    So first of all I want to apologize if I'm saying something that has been said again, but I now read the first 3 pages and feel that I have to write a point or two.

    Second I want to tell you my reasons for Cardistry:
    The standard: It looks cool and its fun of course :)
    But also I am curious how far you can go with cards. I didn't think things like 1 meter springs or crazy looking one card twirls possible but I really do wonder how far it goes nowadays. Of course I'm not yet that good, not even a year that I really am into cardistry, but I'm working my way :)

    Third I want to point out a little point, that made all this arguing unnessecary:
    As you, RD, already acknowledged is Andrei an Artist. This itself qualifies Cardistry as an artform, because how can someone be an artist of something that is no art?

    Second I want to put my opinion on this little satement forth:
    You can express emotions pretty well with cardistry. You can tell the emotion of the performer you are watching, if you know what you are watching.
    For example, if you are excited, you may throw a lot of aerials while you are on the contrary do slow cuts, maybe with some fans mixed in when you are sad (thats a bit like me)
    It's a bit like body language. If you are happy, you have wide, very flowing motinons. On the other hand when you are angry you have a bit of a slashing, fast motions.
    This is a thing you can't control and can't deny altogether. But someone who has never seen cardistry of course does not see this. They are 'only fascinated' by the performer 'juggling cards' as you describe it.


    p.s. I really don't care, if you call it an art or if you don't, it doesn't change anything, but I just wanted to show how cardistry communicates emotion in my opinion.
  13. "As you, RD, already acknowledged is Andrei an Artist. This itself qualifies Cardistry as an artform, because how can someone be an artist of something that is no art?"


    There are several flaws in this argument. ONE RD is not the end all of opinion onto whether or not someone is an artist. TWO if Andrei is an artist, it doesn't automatically make "Cardistry" an artform. There are many other factors that can be the influence onto why Andrei is an artist. I call Teller's Shadow Illusion a master piece of art not because of the magic, but because of the excellent story and theatrical performing of the effect.

    Now I am going to project a bit BUT if anyone person feels that if Andrie is an artist and therefore makes Cardistry an artform which by association makes all cardists artists you are wrong.

    Look at this equation:


    or purely mathmatical:

    x+4=9 Where X is equal to Andrie. If X was anything else that wasn't =x then the equation would be wrong.
  14. Ok, to straighten that out:

    1. RD is not the end of opinion - granted.
    2. Andrei is an Artist with his Cards, are we all agreed on that? Good!
    => Cardistry as a whole can be seen as art, but of course not every performer is performing art nor is every performer an artist. (like not everyone who is drawing is creating art)

    thats my view on this :)

    But again: I don't really think it matters if we call it art, skill, craft or whatsoever. Are you doing the moves any different when you think of it as art as when you think of it as skill? I don't.

  15. I don't care much for this argument in the thread because most opinions on this hobby are immaterial to me (besides critique) and I just do it for fun.

    However, this argument right here does not make sense. Tobias Levin has a smooth, slow, style but does that mean that he is always sad? No. The style of the performer does not always represent the message or the mood being conveyed.
  16. #116 Andrei, Apr 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 13, 2011
    It's ironic that most magicians in this thread believe magic is art and Cardistry is not and will proactively argue against it.

    I have never had a lay person tell me what I do is anything less than art after seeing me perform. Although I have been told otherwise, it has always come from other magicians. Kind of puts things in perspective for me.
  17. Well said.
  18. I do cardistry because I love it. I love the way cards hit my hand during a spring, or when a card twirls around the deck in Twitter.
    But this argument doesn't make sense to me. Doesn't everyone have different views on what art is? I could look at painting and say it was art, but someone else.....ugh. Here's a better example: I watch some dancers dance and say it's a performing art because of the beauty and feeling I get through it. But someone else could just look at it as a sport: just moving around to get in shape. What I'm trying to say is that everyone has different views.

    Remember seeing magic for the first time in your life: it was amazing right? Same with cardistry: When I first saw a cardistry video I was amazed, dumbstruck. So isn't that feeling something?
  19. Possibly because I'm bored of all the magic/cardistry art form debates, or perhaps it's because I finally feel like shedding light on my true opinion about the subject, but here's my honest two cents:

    If you think magic/cardistry is an art form, good for you. If you don't, equally good for you. If you like to do magic/cardistry, then do it. If you don't like to, then don't.

    Does it really matter? This discussion is talked about to death all the time on various forums dedicated to topics including playing cards, so I suspect most people don't even care at this point. Just do whatever the heck you want to do and get it over with...

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