Creators and Performers.

[popchris3]

I was browsing around and came across a wonderful article by David Rowyn about the perception of creators and performers.

http://www.trcky.com/notebook/2012/06/25/the-songwriters-of-magic

Personally, I agree completely with what David says. The perception of performers looking down upon creators and the general divide between them does seem odd. I think it boils down to an issue of arrogance.

Thoughts?

 

[Josh Burch]

I loved the article. I think it is amazing when you look at all the parallels in magic and the other arts. I also think it's amazing that magicians seem to think that we are different when in fact we are very much the same.
Good read

 

[William Draven]

I'm not sure I agree with everything this guy is saying. I don't really see magicians holding creators in negative light. Honestly, Houchin, Garcia, Sankey, and Paul Harris being names that come to mind when it comes to creating material and all of them seem to do well in the respect department.

Just like everyone can't be a performer, I don't believe everyone is able to create. I think the "rift" if one such thing exists, is with the development of the Wire, or youtube, and other programs like them, that empower all to eager wanna-be with the platform necessary to become self published and take their swing at the creative side of show business.

I'm not saying that we haven't come across some good talent that may not have otherwise been noticed this way, there are a couple here on the Wire that have created some brilliant material (Example: Dalton Wayne), but it is all to easy for the young and eager to turn out new effects without doing the proper research first. Research both in the testing of the product, and of course to see if it doesn't already exist in some form. If so, then proper crediting may be necessary.

Let's be real about this. We're not divided into creators and performers. I don't believe such a thing exists. If you are creating or performing magic because you either love the art form and want to contribute to it somehow, or are trying to make your living at it by doing something you love then you're heart is in the right place. If you're in this thing just for fame and feeding your own ego, that's when I believe you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

 

[Justin.Morris]

I'm not sure I agree with everything this guy is saying. I don't really see magicians holding creators in negative light. Honestly, Houchin, Garcia, Sankey, and Paul Harris being names that come to mind when it comes to creating material and all of them seem to do well in the respect department.

Just like everyone can't be a performer, I don't believe everyone is able to create. I think the "rift" if one such thing exists, is with the development of the Wire, or youtube, and other programs like them, that empower all to eager wanna-be with the platform necessary to become self published and take their swing at the creative side of show business.

I'm not saying that we haven't come across some good talent that may not have otherwise been noticed this way, there are a couple here on the Wire that have created some brilliant material, but it is all to easy for the young and eager to turn out new effects without doing the proper research first. Research both in the testing of the product, and of course to see if it doesn't already exist in some form. If so, then proper crediting may be necessary.

Let's be real about this. We're not divided into creators and performers. I don't believe such a thing exists. If you are creating or performing magic because you either love the art form and want to contribute to it somehow, or are trying to make your living at it by doing something you love then you're heart is in the right place. If you're in this thing just for fame and feeding your own ego, that's when I believe you're doing it for the wrong reasons.

Well said. I concur.

 

[Bizzaro]

I do see a common thread of prolific creators are not the best performers. It's very odd but that's the worst I can say about them myself.

 

[Craig Browning]

I've not read the article but I have to echo what William has said here and point out that many who do the creative side of things have no ambition when it comes to being on stage and that includes several major players in the field. . . John Gaughan for an example, rarely performs anything and even then, it's for a very select group of special friends & clients for whom he's "giving a gift"; frequently the performance of a very rare effect/system.

My chief reputation when it comes to traditional magic, has always been that of being a "Technician"; not only do I design and develop but I work with performers in refining their material and blocking out routines for the sake of clean execution. I help them set up lighting programs and understanding why they should do certain pieces in front of a particular type of backdrop so as to embellish the "thinness" built into a table or base . . . this entails stage position, lighting and background let alone costume and misdirection cues pulled off by team members. I can see these things and so I'm able to give decent advice to a client in order to give them optimum advantage.

Even with a reasonably full career performing, it's been my work as a co-developer of effects and coordinator for the performers that's lends to me the stronger reputation. Then again, the fact that I'm a whore for knowledge when it comes to this stuff, is why I'm able to do what I do, even within Mentalism. BUT, this does not mean that I'm a shabby showman. . . I've had more than my fair share of standing ovations . . . but we must question whether it is by design or not ;-)

There are probably more developers & conceptionist in our world who aren't stage savvy or "shouldn't" get on stage to perform, some of whom are absolutely brilliant, such as Walter "Zanny" Blaney. Sadly, as my illnesses take their toll I find myself in their shoes it would seem; I know the effect and the methods but seem to get lost here and there.

Another point that was intimated however, is the fact that those who seem to poop out a new eBook or effect every six weeks or so, aren't necessarily "great" when it comes to performing. I've seen many fall flat on their face with their own material. Personally, I think we owe it to ourselves and to the craft to hesitate when it comes to grabbing up material just because it is part of a "designer label". I know that when it comes to Mentalism there are at least 5 noted authors to be wary of in that they tend to reword what's already been written and put it back out under a new cover. I've caught myself falling into this trap as a writer; it's a dangerous loop to get into and yet writers of all sorts are known for it. We must weigh what they bring out and how often as well as the claims made in the ad copy.

"sigh" I'm rambling a bit so I'll step out at this point with the hope you can understand what I was driving at.

 

[PurpleMustache]

i dont really aggree that performers hate creators, but i totally agree that perfrmers get too much credit.. go ask a non-magician who his favorite magician is. you'll hear names like david blaine and criss angel. now ask a magician who his favorite is. you'll hear mathieu bich, daniel garcia, michael ammar. i can understand that some people are better showman and thats whhy they do it. but i think that at the end of every magic tv show, (not just in the credits) the performer should say out loud to everyone, who created the effects and all the credit for the genius goes to him. especially with people like mathieu bich because he's a terrible showman (sorry but its the truth) but hes got litteraly the best mind in magic ive seen. it dissapoints me because hes freaking brilloiant and he gets none of the credit.

 

[Craig Browning]

i dont really aggree that performers hate creators, but i totally agree that perfrmers get too much credit.. go ask a non-magician who his favorite magician is. you'll hear names like david blaine and criss angel. now ask a magician who his favorite is. you'll hear mathieu bich, daniel garcia, michael ammar. i can understand that some people are better showman and thats whhy they do it. but i think that at the end of every magic tv show, (not just in the credits) the performer should say out loud to everyone, who created the effects and all the credit for the genius goes to him. especially with people like mathieu bich because he's a terrible showman (sorry but its the truth) but hes got litteraly the best mind in magic ive seen. it dissapoints me because hes freaking brilloiant and he gets none of the credit.

Sorry but your suggestion is self-defeating. It's bad enough when people learn the name of an effect because they look it up on line can frequently find the secret or at minimum, buy it then turn around and expose it. If the performer were to boldly thank Jim Stinmeyer and all the others out there, then the general public has resources.

For the longest time magicians would never list their resources, not even in the program. Most secrecy agreements state quite clearly that the resource and technical advisors identities are covered by the agreement and any employee or show associate cannot name or share said information for up to 30 years after their employment is terminated; older contracts tied people up for life and sometimes one's life could be shortened for opening their big mouth. IN my own lifetime on stage I'm aware of those that have had serious accidents with ball bats and stair cases -- a karmic reaction if would seem, for opening their big mouths.

Magic works because IT'S A SECRET! People tend to forget that part and worse, they think that all information should be accessible to any and all persons e.g. magic will wither on the vine within a very brief period of time because it's primary advantage (secrecy) will be given away.

When Sigfried & Roy took ownership of the second Shadow Vision cabinet Kenny and the team made, they more than showed their gratitude in a number of ways. Same is true with the majority of PROS we worked with over the years. We understood that fame from the stage wasn't to be ours outside very limited credit in a program or tech sheet somewhere. This is understood by developers with few of us ever chasing a sense of high profile fame. It does lead to some peculiar situations however. Franz Harrary being patted on the back for that Copperfield trick he did (the "Janet Box" or "Multiple Cutting" which was developed by Franz for Janet Jackson originally).

Even with my background, walking into the John Gaughan workshop without an appointment is a big NO, NO because I may inadvertently learn about things tied to other developers. . . and so the list goes on; magicians doing all they can to PROTECT the secrets of magic and NOT allow them to be accessible to the general public. This is why the majority of major illusions AREN'T patented. To do so makes the schematics available to any and all. . . you'd be surprised what you can find through the U.S. Patent Offices.

 

[Josh Burch]

I don't think that all creators are looked down upon. The above mentioned Matheiu Bich, Steinmeyer, as well as Dan Hauss don't make any pretense to be performers and they are all respected.

The problems come from "creators" that have not done their research. They pirate others material and sell it as their own. They half bake ideas and sell them to make a quick buck. This would be a problem in any industry, a parallel in the music world would be "Friday" by Rebecca Black. A young girl, I mean no ill feelings toward her, can go make a song for fun and sell it as if it is legitimate. We have a lot of Rebecca Blacks here in our community. Unfortunately the Rebecca Blacks in the magic industry tend to be a bit less well meaning then the original Miss Black.

 

[RealityOne]

i dont really aggree that performers hate creators, but i totally agree that perfrmers get too much credit.. go ask a non-magician who his favorite magician is. you'll hear names like david blaine and criss angel. now ask a magician who his favorite is. you'll hear mathieu bich, daniel garcia, michael ammar. i can understand that some people are better showman and thats whhy they do it. but i think that at the end of every magic tv show, (not just in the credits) the performer should say out loud to everyone, who created the effects and all the credit for the genius goes to him.

See, you're thinking like a magician... to the audience THE METHOD DOESN'T MATTER. I'll go as far to say that is the way it should be. What matters is THE MAGICIAN'S ABILITY TO PERFORM the effect. You could give two magician's the same effect and same script and one of them could bomb and the other be amazing. Even performing the same effect, I've gotten different reactions depending on the presentation.

especially with people like mathieu bich because he's a terrible showman (sorry but its the truth) but hes got litteraly the best mind in magic ive seen. it dissapoints me because hes freaking brilloiant and he gets none of the credit.

Are you freaking kidding me? Have you actually seen Mathieu perform? I have seen him perform and lecture at Marc DeSouza's house and he is one of the most entertaining magicians I've seen perform -- in addition to being amazingly creative. He was performing in English, which is not his native language, and was still amazing. The same is true for others people we know as creators like Wayne Houchin - Wayne also is an excellent performer.

I read the article and it was an utter waste of time. Seriously, it is trying to apply an analogy to an issue that just doesn't exist.

We all have different talents. Some are move monkeys, some have a stage presence, some know how to put together a routine, some can script presentation and effects, some can create effects, some have encyclopedic knowledge of moves, methods and history and some can just BS on the internet. Very few magicians have the entire package it takes to be successful. We really do need each other to pull all the pieces together.

My only complaint about "creators" are the folks that try to create something without the proper background. It used to be that magicians wanted to be amazing performers and, at the end of their career, they would write a book with all of their effects. These days, if you've been in magic six months, you want to become famous (at least in your own mind) by getting an effect published. That leads to people trying to release an inordinate amount of crap before it has ever been tested on an audience, let alone refined.

 

[Randy]

The only creator who i think has gone from creating AND performing to barely doing either is Jay Sankey. Sankey has released a lot of GOOD things over the years, but currently he seems to be just rehashing his old material and most of his "newer" stuff has been pretty awful and he doesn't perform for humans anymore.

 

[popchris3]

It's interesting that you say that, because I still really like Jay's newer stuff; I don't know that I've ever been disappointed by any of it. Also, he still performs on a pretty regular basis.

 

[Craig Browning]

My only complaint about "creators" are the folks that try to create something without the proper background. It used to be that magicians wanted to be amazing performers and, at the end of their career, they would write a book with all of their effects. These days, if you've been in magic six months, you want to become famous (at least in your own mind) by getting an effect published. That leads to people trying to release an inordinate amount of crap before it has ever been tested on an audience, let alone refined.

This has been my biggest gripe about the magic world since desktop publishing became a concept.

I had a kid a few years ago that "had an original trick" -- a big illusion that he'd not even made a cardboard prototype of yet, let alone working mock-ups. I showed him Shadow Vision and a few other key pieces Kenny and I had developed during the days of Creative Illusions. I pointed out that Shadow Vision took 3 people with extensive magic backgrounds plus a couple of engineers to make into a functioning effect. Kenny had the idea for years and even a basic method. He shared it with me and I ended up adding to it simply because I saw things different from Kenny, then his partner Paul had some thoughts. We literally built 3 physical wood & metal units so as to work out all the nuances -- 9 months and $15,000.00 later we had a winner. We'd no sooner sent the first one to Italy for Sylvan than Sigfried & Roy ordered one followed by Mark Wilson and so on.

This is the reality behind creating any effect large or small and especially if a "prop" is involved. You must figure out the best possible mechanics and physical limitations/ demands that idea faces and very few realize this, let alone actually doing it.

I remember Billy McComb laughing whenever the Zig Zag was brought up because he had Harbin's original. . . not the working cabinet but the cardboard boxes used to work out the specifics behind the illusion.

 

[HaveOuts]

I feel this issue should be no issue at all.

Performers/Creators is the equivalent of Detective/Criminalists.

The Detective may make the arrest, but it's the Forensic Scientist who catches the criminal.

In a lot of ways being a Creator is a thankless job (as is being a Forensic Scientist) because you're behind the scene. When an audience see's a brilliant piece of magic they think "Gosh, (insert performers name here) is absolutely incredible! How'd they do that?!)* not "Gosh, (insert performers name here) is absolutely incredible! How'd they do that?! I wonder how (insert creators name here) thought of that?!

The only real accolades the Creator gets for some of their best effects are within the magic community itself while the Performer gets it from not only the magic community but also by society at large that comes and watches their shows, or views them on the television and Youtube, etc.

I noticed Jay Sankey has been mentioned at least once already in this thread, and he is a good example. How many people who watched the 3rd season of Criss Angel's MINDFREAK realized Sankey was part of Angel's creative team?

In fact, he helped develop roughly 40 original magic concepts for that show.

Is that common knowledge to most people? Of course, it's not...ask 99% of people who watched the 3rd season if they know who Jay Sankey is and the answer you will get is "Who?"

Ask 99% of people who aren't even into magic at all period if they know who Criss Angel is and the majority of the time the answer will be "Yeah, he's they magic guy."

My entire point is it's silly for Performers to harp on Creators; they need each other...it's a rocky matrimony indeed.

Fine, sleep in separate beds...but keep it together for the kids!

- Steve

*(The term "Gosh" was used to keep in accordance with Theory 11 Forum Rules)