Death to the Double Undercut :: Review

May 10, 2008
159
1
Wow, the fact that this thread has even gotten 3 pages is just pain ridiculous. If your going to post a sarcastic review, at least say its sarcastic (hell, dont post it at all). I came here looking for an actual review of the product, as I was considering using it for a quick way to cut a card to the bottom without using the Double Undercut. Now i dont even know what to say, about these forums in general. I mean seriously? Whatever.....

p.s. Ive liked all of Joel's other 1 on 1's and can't wait for more from him.
 
Jun 24, 2008
164
0
United States
i cant believe you guys....i use the double udnercut all the time as well, but an alternate way to do it is a good idea, instead of using the same method over and over
 
Sep 1, 2007
659
1
It is a great move but it is unneccessary AND they are charging $5 for it!

Yup.

I think the best way to think about it is this though:

If you watch the video and think, 'that was a nice control, I would like to add that to my repertoire, then buy it. It's $5, and in the UK you can't get a sandwich and a can of coke for that.

On the inverse if you watch it and think, 'that sucked I know much better controls than that'. Dont buy it.
 

Deechristopher

theory11 moderator
Moderator
Most of the 1on1's are focused towards the beginners, some are more advanced, but if you were someone just checking out if magic was for them you wouldn't want to spend $25 off the cuff and wait for a DVD to arrive, you'd want something for under a tenner you can check out straight away.

As for this 1on1, I think it's a nice little sequence. It looks pretty cool and is technically easy to do. For $5, this kind of tuition is great.

Lola has only really got into magic over the last few months and she's bought several 1on1's on my recommendation as I think they're one of the best things to happen to the magic industry in a long time.

Low price, good quality tuition. The different videos are aimed toward different people, skill levels, etc.

I think they're great and that Joel's videos would really help someone starting out not knowing what to buy or where to go.

Everyone on this thread bashing the videos obviously don't understand the concept of targeting different audiences. If you don't like it, don't buy it.

Post a review honestly reviewing it, great! but don't rip it to shreds just because it's not like teaching something of intermediate or advanced level. I'm sorry to say that not everything is targeting to this small niche of more advanced magicians.

Intel end.

D.
 
Sep 2, 2007
1,700
1
More than anything, "Death to the Double Undercut" is a way to control a card -- hence, its name. Actually, it features two controls: one from the top to the bottom and one from the bottom to the top -- using a flourish.

While the flourish in and of itself may not be dynamic per se, the 1-on-1 teaches two solid controls -- which will be conducive for anyone needing help or looking into card controls -- using a flourish that many of us already now.

However, of course, as previously mentioned, the 1-on-1's vary in their difficulty -- from those suited for beginners, to intermediates, to advanced. If it seems to be something that may not be for you, there is always the option not to hit the "Buy" button. If one does not like a red Ferrari GTO 288, or already has it, I would not suggest buying it -- similarly, no one is forcing you to purchase the 1-on-1.

That being said, you guys are free to express your opinions -- both positive and negative -- but these opinions, of course, can -- and should -- be expressed in a professional, respective way. In the end, constructive feedback and criticism is the best way to constantly improve -- but it needs to be constructive and professional for that to happen, which for a majority of this thread has not been the case.

For me, I will definitely be using the controls taught in the 1-on-1 with not only the Blind Swivel Cut taught in the video -- which is simple, but gets the proverbial job done -- but also will be applying the control techniques to more advanced flourishes, such as the Molecule Cut.

Cheers,
JTM
 
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May 17, 2008
149
0
I just want to say that I have been doing magic for a whiule now and have been invited to do weddings,tallent shows, birthday parties, etc. And I have bought a lot of the 1 on 1s eaven though not all of them are advanced still be respectful to the peaple that created it because obliviously he is a proffesinel who is on the t11 team none of you posers who are scraping joel pascel are on t11. So once you making effects like belive and death to the double undercut then you can scrap joel.


P.S its fine to voice your apinons obout how you dont like the move but critisise the move and not the creator.



Indiana.C
 
Apr 28, 2008
598
0
I just want to say that I have been doing magic for a whiule now and have been invited to do weddings,tallent shows, birthday parties, etc.

Well done?

And I have bought a lot of the 1 on 1s eaven though not all of them are advanced

Nobody is complaining that they aren't advanced, they are complaining because it is unorginal and available for free elsewhere.

be respectful to the peaple that created it because obliviously he is a proffesinel who is on the t11 team

As I said in the other thread, simply being a T11 artist does not mean you automatically gain unlimited respect. Respect has to be earned. All the other artists have proven themselves by releasing consitently high quality products. E.g. Wayne Houchin with Sinful, Stigmata, Control, Indecent. The Bucks with The Trilogy and The System. Lee Asher with The Asher Twist and Pulp Friction.

It is expected that Joel will do the same.

none of you posers who are scraping joel pascel are on t11

Maybe because I live in the UK, I am currently at college and have no intention of being a professional magician?

So once you making effects like belive and death to the double undercut then you can scrap joel.

Nobody has complained about Believe, everyone likes that.
I have created cuts far better than death to the double undercut and I wouldn't dream of selling them because they are not worth $5.

P.S its fine to voice your apinons obout how you dont like the move but critisise the move and not the creator.

We can say whatever we want whether you like it or not.
 
May 17, 2008
149
0
Ya its true that you can say what eaver you want but Joel is a heck of a lot better then you are. Ok so you created a flourish better then death to the doublee under cut so what he has to and honestly I dought you have a quarter of the tallent that he dose ::eek:





Indiana.C
 
Apr 28, 2008
598
0
Ya its true that you can say what eaver you want but Joel is a heck of a lot better then you are. Ok so you created a flourish better then death to the doublee under cut so what he has to and honestly I dought you have a quarter of the tallent that he dose ::eek:





Indiana.C

I don't doubt that Joel is better than me but that doesn't mean that his 1 on 1's a are good value for money.

I probably don't have a quarter of the talent Joel does, i'm not a professional magician, my talents are in other areas but I know that a swivel cut is not worth $5.

I don't really think it's worth discussing this with you any further as you're obviously not going to attempt to make an intelligent argument.
 
Oct 6, 2007
112
1
35
I used this cut when I first started out in magic to control the card but the more I used it the more people saw that the cards never acually move the card always stays in the same spot, or beacuse it looks flourishy people always say you just put the cards where you wanted them. So I quit doing this and now just do simple false cuts and riffle shuffles. When you do flashy cuts people automattically assume you did somthing fishy, its all about subtle fair looking things that fool people.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,434
6
Sydney, Australia
Nobody is complaining that they aren't advanced, they are complaining because it is unorginal and available for free elsewhere.



As I said in the other thread, simply being a T11 artist does not mean you automatically gain unlimited respect. Respect has to be earned. All the other artists have proven themselves by releasing consitently high quality products. E.g. Wayne Houchin with Sinful, Stigmata, Control, Indecent. The Bucks with The Trilogy and The System. Lee Asher with The Asher Twist and Pulp Friction.

It is expected that Joel will do the same.



We can say whatever we want whether you like it or not.

Practically no sybil flourish is original - should we ditch all of those because they're unoriginal? Originality is a quality - but the truth is, less than 1% of products have them because they are all based on the principles of magic written by those before us. How many of your effects use the double lift? That's not original, by your argument your should be complaining about effects that use DL.

In addition, just because it's available for free doesn't mean we should encourage people to do so. The fact is, pirated copies of Dangerous are available for free, should we be looking for those? Pass tutorials abound on YouTube, should we learn the pass from those? Magicians are so against YouTube kids - and yet here we are encouraging them to do the same. The fact is that Joel's teaching is better, professional, and contains subtleties and tips, more than you can say for YouTube. So which one is it?


To the second point, you argue that the movie is of bad quality. However, your criticisms aren't about the move's quality, it's about the move's originality and availability. It's interesting that the few people who have bought it, like it, and seem to want to use it - you may not have need for it, but others find a perfectly good control. If they find the control usable, I'd say the quality was just fine - but don't masquerade originality and availability for quality, they're not the same.


Finally, that's the epitome of arrogant comments I see on here. Not much to be said about it, but I'm quite disgusted. If you really think we should be able to say whatever we want... Apart from the obvious, I also see hypocrisy in the wave of people ignoring and bashing the people who do like the cut. Anyone notable who says they like it is bashed. Anyone new who says they like it is ignored. Apparently, you can say whatever you want, but only if they agree with you.
 
Apr 25, 2008
11
0
Practically no sybil flourish is original - should we ditch all of those because they're unoriginal? Originality is a quality - but the truth is, less than 1% of products have them because they are all based on the principles of magic written by those before us. How many of your effects use the double lift? That's not original, by your argument your should be complaining about effects that use DL.

In addition, just because it's available for free doesn't mean we should encourage people to do so. The fact is, pirated copies of Dangerous are available for free, should we be looking for those? Pass tutorials abound on YouTube, should we learn the pass from those? Magicians are so against YouTube kids - and yet here we are encouraging them to do the same. The fact is that Joel's teaching is better, professional, and contains subtleties and tips, more than you can say for YouTube. So which one is it?


To the second point, you argue that the movie is of bad quality. However, your criticisms aren't about the move's quality, it's about the move's originality and availability. It's interesting that the few people who have bought it, like it, and seem to want to use it - you may not have need for it, but others find a perfectly good control. If they find the control usable, I'd say the quality was just fine - but don't masquerade originality and availability for quality, they're not the same.


Finally, that's the epitome of arrogant comments I see on here. Not much to be said about it, but I'm quite disgusted. If you really think we should be able to say whatever we want... Apart from the obvious, I also see hypocrisy in the wave of people ignoring and bashing the people who do like the cut. Anyone notable who says they like it is bashed. Anyone new who says they like it is ignored. Apparently, you can say whatever you want, but only if they agree with you.
DUDE! I'm gonna buy a DL for $5. I don't see what is wrong with Passes, DLs, Hindu Forces, Overhand Shuffles etc. tutorials on Youtube. So you are going to tell me to learn from Erdnase's ECAT? Even ECAT has been released for free.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,434
6
Sydney, Australia
DUDE! I'm gonna buy a DL for $5. I don't see what is wrong with Passes, DLs, Hindu Forces, Overhand Shuffles etc. tutorials on Youtube. So you are going to tell me to learn from Erdnase's ECAT? Even ECAT has been released for free.

Would you really?



Regardless, according to Squ!rrel's argument, anything unoriginal and available shouldn't be sold; he's not rating the move according to it's quality by those two criteria.

If you'd buy a DL, consider this then: The guys who have bought this have found a control they will use. That to me is worth $5. There's nothing wrong about that; but in my opinion, to class the move as worthless based on originality and availability is wrong.

As for what's wrong with YouTube, they're a step below learning magic tricks from YouTube. Do you also not have a problem with learning Revolution from YouTube? How about just a sleight then - the Winter Change? It's commonly considered unethical to learn such things for free - but even if one did not have ethics, consider the quality of teaching - for the aesthetic purposes of magic, it's not a good thing to learn from YouTube tutorials.
 
Apr 28, 2008
598
0
Practically no sybil flourish is original - should we ditch all of those because they're unoriginal? Originality is a quality - but the truth is, less than 1% of products have them because they are all based on the principles of magic written by those before us. How many of your effects use the double lift? That's not original, by your argument your should be complaining about effects that use DL.

No, we should not ditch Sybil's, although if it is to be sold I would expect a considerable improvement/variation on the orignal concept for it to be sold. If the basic Sybil cut was sold for $5 I would not be impressed. Dan and Dave's Mecka or Jackson 5 is a major variation on this concept so I believe selling it is justified.

By my argument, I would not be complaining about effects that use a double lift. I would, however, be complaining about an effect that uses solely a double lift in an unoriginal way. For it to be sold, I would expect either a new handling of the double lift or use of the double lift in a way nobody has previously thought of.

In addition, just because it's available for free doesn't mean we should encourage people to do so. The fact is, pirated copies of Dangerous are available for free, should we be looking for those? Pass tutorials abound on YouTube, should we learn the pass from those? Magicians are so against YouTube kids - and yet here we are encouraging them to do the same. The fact is that Joel's teaching is better, professional, and contains subtleties and tips, more than you can say for YouTube. So which one is it?

To compare learning a swivel cut on Youtube to downloading Dangerous is absolutley absurd. The Swivel cut is a 'public domain' move that is widely available. Dangerous is a 2 hour set of new material (for the most part it is VERY original and uses original concepts and existing moves in ways I have never thought of using them). There's nothing unethical about teaching a swivel cut, downloading Dangerous would be both unethical and illegal.
I don't know how you can possibly use this as an argument, i'm sure you must know it's absolutley ridiculous.

Finally, that's the epitome of arrogant comments I see on here. Not much to be said about it, but I'm quite disgusted. If you really think we should be able to say whatever we want... Apart from the obvious, I also see hypocrisy in the wave of people ignoring and bashing the people who do like the cut. Anyone notable who says they like it is bashed. Anyone new who says they like it is ignored. Apparently, you can say whatever you want, but only if they agree with you.

That comment was directed at somebody who showed no intention of giving a logical argument. Taken out of context it appears to be very arrogant but I there was little else I could say to somebody who is basically telling me to shut up.

I have NEVER said (explicity or implicity) you can say what you want if you agree with me. Don't put words in my mouth.
Everybody's opinion is equally valid, what is annoying me is OTHER people apparently saying 'you can say whatever you want, but only if they agree with you. I am being told to shut up because I don't like the 1 on 1 yet it appears to be OK to comment on it if you like it.
I have never 'bashed' anybody, I have given my reasons for why I don't think it is appropriate to sell this.
 
May 19, 2008
451
0
manchester
please, just accept that beginers will use it, there is know way whatsoever (sp.) you are helping THEM, its a card control, it fooled me (im not trying to say im awsome at magic, im not, but it still fooled me), which to ME seems like its worth it. $5, thats £2.50 okay, its not expensive. Im not extremely rich or anything like that, im 13.

you wanna argue and make fun of people? why.

if your thinking T11 is turning into a place where they rip of beginers, then you are WAY over reacting, its a card control you dont like, BIG DEAL, isnt there anything better for you to do than to have like 4 pages off how rubbish one tiny part of the internet is?

seriously...
 
Apr 28, 2008
598
0
please, just accept that beginers will use it, there is know way whatsoever (sp.) you are helping THEM, its a card control, it fooled me (im not trying to say im awsome at magic, im not, but it still fooled me), which to ME seems like its worth it. $5, thats £2.50 okay, its not expensive. Im not extremely rich or anything like that, im 13.

you wanna argue and make fun of people? why.

if your thinking T11 is turning into a place where they rip of beginers, then you are WAY over reacting, its a card control you dont like, BIG DEAL, isnt there anything better for you to do than to have like 4 pages off how rubbish one tiny part of the internet is?

seriously...

Unlike many other people, I have never pushed the issue of this hurting beginners (I have mentioned it but it's certainly not whats bothereing me).

I don't want to argue, I want to discuss the issue. I have not made fun of anyone.

As for me having anything better to do... it's a Sunday, I can't go anywhere because everywhere is closed, i'm waiting for exam results so i'm not at college, it's freezing outside and just about all my friends are on holiday, i've hurt my hand so I can't play guitar or piano so, no... I have nothing better to do.
 
Nov 20, 2007
4,434
6
Sydney, Australia
No, we should not ditch Sybil's, although if it is to be sold I would expect a considerable improvement/variation on the orignal concept for it to be sold. If the basic Sybil cut was sold for $5 I would not be impressed. Dan and Dave's Mecka or Jackson 5 is a major variation on this concept so I believe selling it is justified.

By my argument, I would not be complaining about effects that use a double lift. I would, however, be complaining about an effect that uses solely a double lift in an unoriginal way. For it to be sold, I would expect either a new handling of the double lift or use of the double lift in a way nobody has previously thought of.



To compare learning a swivel cut on Youtube to downloading Dangerous is absolutley absurd. The Swivel cut is a 'public domain' move that is widely available. Dangerous is a 2 hour set of new material (for the most part it is VERY original and uses original concepts and existing moves in ways I have never thought of using them). There's nothing unethical about teaching a swivel cut, downloading Dangerous would be both unethical and illegal.
I don't know how you can possibly use this as an argument, i'm sure you must know it's absolutley ridiculous.



That comment was directed at somebody who showed no intention of giving a logical argument. Taken out of context it appears to be very arrogant but I there was little else I could say to somebody who is basically telling me to shut up.

I have NEVER said (explicity or implicity) you can say what you want if you agree with me. Don't put words in my mouth.
Everybody's opinion is equally valid, what is annoying me is OTHER people apparently saying 'you can say whatever you want, but only if they agree with you. I am being told to shut up because I don't like the 1 on 1 yet it appears to be OK to comment on it if you like it.
I have never 'bashed' anybody, I have given my reasons for why I don't think it is appropriate to sell this.

Alright, let's see here... To be honest, I still don't see the problem if the original sybil were to be taught - or other unoriginal moves - of course many people know it, but that's not the point, I'd have absolutely no problem not buying it and leaving it to the people who don't know it to buy it. It's only like the predecessor to 1 bazillion cuts so it's important for a beginning flourisher, and for some, it would be an incredible download.

I also disagree with the need for any effect involving the double lift to necessarily have a different/unique handing/purpose for the double. There's a reason why the double, the classic pass, and other such moves, have been around as long as they have, and it's because they work. They may be unoriginal, the next DL you replace back onto your deck may be the same one used decades ago, but it works, and honestly, I don't see a problem with this either. Whatever works for the target audience. There's no need to force a reworking of everything for it to be accepted in the magic community - especially as a part of an effect, but even a basic DL one on one - that has its purpose too, and though it may not be yours, it's still a purpose that satisfies others. To some extent, the need to have moves reworked comes from our need as magicians - honestly, I don't believe laymen care if they never find out because it's convincing. Their needs come first, so if classic works, classic's good, and if beginners are the target audience, teach the classics that work, by all means a normal DL if necessarily, by all means, for flourishing, a sybil.



In hindsight, I accept your point about the comparison, it was exaggerated and I apologise/withdraw it. Nonetheless, the point about teaching still stands - beginners need to learn and if a video like this is made with good teaching, I don't see the problem, it's aimed at beginners, and it's better than the thousands on YouTube.



As for the last part, I can understand where you're coming from. I read the other person's post, and I did not feel that it came off the way you understood it, and hence I immediately felt it was unjustified. Nonetheless, again, I do understand where/why that came from.
 
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